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Main => Background => Topic started by: The Black Dahlia Murder on March 30, 2010, 07:14:59 PM

Title: Tau in close combat
Post by: The Black Dahlia Murder on March 30, 2010, 07:14:59 PM
Why are Tau so bad in close combat? Its not like they have to send as many troops to the front lines like conscripts.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Raktra (So long, I guess) on March 30, 2010, 07:20:31 PM
I think it's because they're just pretty feeble, and are far more suited to making sure things can't really get to grips with them. They could also be quite slow to react in up-close situations due to their vision or something, hence the low WS and I.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Sir_Godspeed on March 30, 2010, 07:35:26 PM
They also view close-combat as savage and barbaric, hence few Tau are willing to dedicate themselves to studying it.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on March 30, 2010, 09:52:15 PM
There have been at least two hypothesis offered about the place. One - that the Tau have trouble changing their focal point quickly and so a rapidly closing and/or moving enemy poses difficulty. Two - Tau have a poor reaction speed compared to humans and thus do not adjust quickly when confronted in close quarters. However, the Air Caste appear to have no issue with reaction time and are able to readily compete with their Imperial counterparts so I put less weight upon that factor. Additionally, as can be seen from the potential increased ability with battlesuit wearers technology may be able to compensate for the focus and/or reaction speed issue.

Cultural issues, as stated, also are involved. When it's just not the done thing you are not as well practiced nor trained in the matter. Keeping in mind though that the material we have does say that Tau are trained in close quarters combat if not to any extreme as the Imperial or the Orks. Ethereals, for example, appear to be quite good at it.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Greyshades on March 30, 2010, 11:16:51 PM
The physical reaction time / vision limitations could still make sense, as their technology could easily compensate for visual deficiencies or slower reaction time in areas such as aerial or space combat, and could even help compensate for shooting for the basic tau fire warrior (its easy to imagine enhanced optics or radar type devices, with computer assisted targeting etc), but close combat largely relies on the actual physical characteristics of the individual, where the tau may simply be lacking compared to humans.  Of course, their larger suits may help by making them tough to injure, stronger and faster, which results in better close combat survivability.

just my 2 cents
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The Ecclesiarch on March 31, 2010, 01:38:32 PM
Its physiology, the Tau are as tough and robust as a normal human but they lack the same potential as humans in fighting hand to hand (and thats not exactly saying much :D) i would say its primarily racial.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on March 31, 2010, 01:40:40 PM
What potential would this be more precisely?
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The Ecclesiarch on March 31, 2010, 01:46:43 PM
The potential that indicates that they NEED big battle suits to wield a hand to hand weapon as skillfully as a Commissar! Or it could be how they live (peacefully) perhaps the Tau before the Ethereals came along were more skilled in hand to hand but thats not the case anymore. From a racial perspective the Orks for example are Always (Always etc) fighting, the Tau do not!
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on March 31, 2010, 01:57:36 PM
That's a circular argument. The Tau use big battlesuits as they need to use big battlesuits. There's no why there.  ;)  If you primarily focus upon the Fire Caste they are also always fighting or training for the same. In the same manner as the Imperial Guard. The historical argument is also flawed as the same example of the Guard could be used back in the early gunpowder days compared to 40K.

Fire Warrior (yes, yuck) included scenes where getting down and dirty were seen as abhorrent but not to the extent of physical incapacity. The Shas' still did what was needed versus a dug in Guard force.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The Ecclesiarch on March 31, 2010, 02:10:38 PM
Well if thats the case then it goes back to their race :-\ the problem with something like WS is that its one of those more intagible characteristics, looking at other characteristics we know Orks are tough because of their resilient physiology and the fact they are generally big! Kroot have elasticated muscle density so they are strong, both have high WS because they fight alot, how can you define Weaponskill within raical perameters? Well the truth is that i dont for sure, Its Race + Experience but race has the final say in the universe in which we play, no Tau is going to have WS6 because he is a Tau!

Personally i liked Fire Warrior, it was a decent game for Playstation and its probably what got me back into 40K after a long break away ;)
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on March 31, 2010, 02:19:12 PM
That's still circular reasoning. Tau aren't good in close quarter because they're Tau.  ;) Which is the usual problem when trying to compare the fluff with game statlines. "Fighting a lot" isn't much of a qualifier as it has no regards for the skill or training. Who would you place your money on - a professional athlete who has been constantly training under competent supervision or some guy from the bar who fights the same amount? Now translate that to a military force.

Fire Warrior the book. Not the video game. It's not generally a good idea trying to understand the world build from a video game.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Tarrin the Space Marine on March 31, 2010, 02:29:08 PM
Its because they don't need to practice hand to hand when you can shoot them from a long way away.

Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on March 31, 2010, 02:31:32 PM
They do practice hand to hand (Fire Warrior and Kill Team.) Same as contemporary armies do today. No matter what you do or how well you plan - the enemy will get in your face sooner or later.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The Ecclesiarch on March 31, 2010, 02:42:08 PM
:) even if the reasoning is flawed it seems the truth of the matter, in conclusion its exactly because they are Tau that they suck so much at hand to hand, yes i agree that its hardly the best reason but its just easier in terms of a tabletop wargame, some races are better than fighting than others, thats just the way it is!

With military training you have to look at what the training relates too, an infantry man is taught how to operate his assault rifle, a gunner how to load and fire shells. Obviously training is going to beat raw brute force, a small guy who knows how to fire a gun and maintain his weapon is going to win over a big, brawny dude that doesnt. But thats within specific circumstances (within the context of a firefight/war) the bar guy would probably whoop the soldiers arse if they met in a bar lol

I would NEVER read Fire Warrior the book! I would read a book about the Tau but no way would i read a novelization of a game. The video game was totally ok in terms of depicting the universe, the cutscenes were decent, if you dont believe me go and check em out on Youtube :D
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Sir_Godspeed on March 31, 2010, 07:01:55 PM
Well, Ecclesiarch, I don't think anyone's disagreeing with the notion that Tau are bad at close combat because they're Tau, but what we're looking after are the reasons why being a Tau makes you bad at close combat, so to speak.
So far, we've presented cultural, doctrinal and physiological arguments. Looks like a good day's work for the Fluff think tank.

To the skies!

*whoooooosh*
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: praetorian1 on April 1, 2010, 04:48:20 AM
i would think its a little bit all these reasons

but also tau tech. isn't quite as good for bashing the enemy over the head as say a lasgun or choppa
mainly maybe its the equipment mostly
example guardsmen breaks fire warrior rifle, fire warrior can not fight any more and thus is removed off the table plus they don't have any real close combat weapons like bayonets and chain swords but the ones that do are skilled in there use
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Sheepz on April 1, 2010, 05:25:18 AM
I'd like to think of it as 'because they're Tau', but the way I see it, they probably put less emphasis on hand to hand. This is not to say they don't do it, but imagine a soldier of today with his wrestling and bayonet practice and then imagine the solider of the 40K universe. Most of the things in 40K seem to want to kill you messily with a chainaxe, so naturally you're a bit more used to screaming crazies charging at you with glowing swords as big as people. While the Tau might train for close quarter fighting, they probably don't have the same mentality towards it as other races do.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Sayt on April 1, 2010, 05:45:00 AM
i would think its a little bit all these reasons

but also tau tech. isn't quite as good for bashing the enemy over the head as say a lasgun or choppa
mainly maybe its the equipment mostly
example guardsmen breaks fire warrior rifle, fire warrior can not fight any more and thus is removed off the table plus they don't have any real close combat weapons like bayonets and chain swords but the ones that do are skilled in there use

Uhm, I've not seen it stated anywhere that Tau Technology is fragile.  In fact, if a lasgun shot a pulse rifle and a pulse rifle, the las gun would probably be rather worse for wear.

As for why're they're worse in close combat.....Slow refelxes, and they're not built for bashing someone on the head, they're built for tossing spears. (The Fire caste used to be hunters in an African Savannah style area of the Tau homeworld.  (Or at least thats how I picture the 'plains areas')
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Benis on April 1, 2010, 06:33:33 AM
As for why're they're worse in close combat.....Slow refelxes,

Like Rummy said, that conflicts with their performance as pilots though.

and they're not built for bashing someone on the head, they're built for tossing spears. (The Fire caste used to be hunters in an African Savannah style area of the Tau homeworld.

Unlike humans? ;)

Personally I prefer to view it as a combination of less agility and generally weaker physique compared to humans which means that they will be at a disadvantage in close combat with humans and that this is so slight so it is best represented by worse Weapon Skill and Initiative. If a Tau and a human would perform some sort of set of physical tests the Tau would always be slightly worse than the human, not by much but enough to make the human physically superior (sort of like a civilian with normal physique compared to a trained soldier).
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Sayt on April 1, 2010, 07:43:08 AM
As for why're they're worse in close combat.....Slow refelxes,

Like Rummy said, that conflicts with their performance as pilots though.
This is true.  Possibly they just have slow muscles so to speak.  they mentally process information fine, they just have trouble gettig their arms to move.  I'd be unsurprised of the Tau had an equivalent of a MIU to allow direct controll of the craft.

and they're not built for bashing someone on the head, they're built for tossing spears. (The Fire caste used to be hunters in an African Savannah style area of the Tau homeworld.

Unlike humans? ;)

Personally I prefer to view it as a combination of less agility and generally weaker physique compared to humans which means that they will be at a disadvantage in close combat with humans and that this is so slight so it is best represented by worse Weapon Skill and Initiative. If a Tau and a human would perform some sort of set of physical tests the Tau would always be slightly worse than the human, not by much but enough to make the human physically superior (sort of like a civilian with normal physique compared to a trained soldier).

Yes, but Human beings also evolved to beat each other around the head with pointy metal sticks (Ref: Up till 200 years ago), and we got rather good at it.  Tau didn't.  They're focus seemed to be entirely based apon tossing round pointy bits of wood at each other (And rocks(Humans are mean, throw rocks at them!)), and later on when they had them, firearms.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Awfully Dandy on April 1, 2010, 07:55:24 AM
I tend to think it is more them just being slightly squimish about all the whole thing. Unlike the imperium were humans have been indoctated into a cult of hatred for Xenos and those who break the Emperor's will,the Tau are brought up in a climate of life being special and killing being a grim neccesity rather then something which is glorious, quite similar to us at the moment. So it's more when they have to directly strangel someone they feel uneasy about it as compared to pressing buttons to inflict long range death.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Benis on April 1, 2010, 08:07:21 AM
Yes, but Human beings also evolved to beat each other around the head with pointy metal sticks (Ref: Up till 200 years ago), and we got rather good at it.

I would say that we are far more evolved to throw spears and rocks to hunt and ward of enemies than we are at beating each other around the head with metal sticks, that is more of technology than evolution: am I a better fighter than a human born ten thousand years ago just because we have spent ten thousand years beating each other over the head? No, but I could get a gun and shot the poor man.

Tau doesn't seem to lack that element in their evolution and neither does their history suggest such a lack so I think we again get back to a basic comparison of physique.

I tend to think it is more them just being slightly squimish about all the whole thing.

The psychology element is interesting but surely such squeamishness would be battered out of them by both training and actual experience? We humans are also naturally squeamish about this but can be taught/indoctrinated into doing it without much hesitation, surely the Fire Warriors go through similar training?
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Sayt on April 1, 2010, 04:29:36 PM
IMO, it would be more cultural than psychological.  The Tau wage war from afar, they disdain close combat, as a race and as a culture.  Which, conincidentally, is where rouhgly half the Tau's semi-dislike for the Kroot (The other half being the unrepentant cannibalism), in that they're built for, and relatively good at, close combat.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Awfully Dandy on April 1, 2010, 05:34:15 PM
Quote
The psychology element is interesting but surely such squeamishness would be battered out of them by both training and actual experience? We humans are also naturally squeamish about this but can be taught/indoctrinated into doing it without much hesitation, surely the Fire Warriors go through similar training?

Indeed we are. However I am trying to go for the idea of Tau being quite compareble to our standard infantry men (In terms of psychological preperation) however when that is compared to the depths of hatred that the rest of the 40k universe has, it looks slightly less impressive. You know I imagine a imperial human actively hates xenos which is something I imagine a Tau doesn't. Similar to how most pampjlets for the armed forces talk about hatred not being useful to waging war and that a solider shouldn't let it get the best of him, a position which would be meet with complete disdain by the Imperium. 
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: praetorian1 on April 2, 2010, 04:38:15 AM
Uhm, I've not seen it stated anywhere that Tau Technology is fragile.  In fact, if a lasgun shot a pulse rifle and a pulse rifle, the las gun would probably be rather worse for wear.

er i meant taking the weapons and using them rough, example taking a lasgun and bash it over a rock it would probably still work but would a pulse rifle, its not fragile just not as sturdy as other cruder weapons possibly

i think that's what i was getting at
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The Ecclesiarch on April 2, 2010, 02:42:07 PM
Maybe the Tau are just clumsy when it comes to wielding hand to hand weapons!
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on April 2, 2010, 02:50:26 PM
No indication of that so far. Kill Team mentions smooth and precise movements that the soldiers actually found slightly disturbing. Being naturally clumsy also wouldn't help with accurate long range fire either.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Trokair on April 5, 2010, 08:57:58 AM
From my understanding of Tau fluff the weekends in hand to hand stems from several factor.

First is cultural, hand to hand is seen as primitive and savage unless it is ritualised (ethereal and there honour blades). Also as has been mentioned Tau are more like human today in terms of killing, eg. At range no problem, but close up it become more difficult for sociological reasons.

Second, early description of Tau eyesight always made me think of them as being chronically farsighted compared to average humans, so they can see great amount of detail in the distance, but thing with in a meter or so a slightly blurred compared to average humans, so when in hand to hand, where the struggle is quick it is harder for them to react successfully.

Thirdly, guardsmen are trained both in hand to hand and range, hence WS and BS of three, while Tau are only trained at range. With minimal hand to hand, only the basics as a necessary evil in case it comes to that. conscripts, which are portrait as humans that have not been really trained but just given a gun are about as good as Tau in hand to hand.

So between training, there eyesight and possibly other minor things like that and cultural issues it adds up. Also consider Tau trained under Farsight, they are as good as Gaurdsmen in hand to hand skill wise. So training certainly plays a role.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: In_Theory on April 6, 2010, 06:47:55 PM
I definitely recall something about their eyesight actually being a fair reason... it's not that they have bad eyesight, but their eyes focus and track better at range and up-close it gets a bit blurry and hard to track fast movements...

So the air caste pilots are perfect, since the only problems they would have it when they're within a few metres of another craft-- in which case they're about to crash or are doing some insane showing off.

Likewise, in close combat, the Tau have a difficult time reacting properly and thus are a bit clumsy... though they see and shoot perfectly at range.

The eyesight problems don't kick in until things are within stabbing distance, as even in game terms you can keep shooting an enemy until they're literally in your face.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: augustmanifesto on April 7, 2010, 12:27:23 AM
Although some of my participation in the discussion forum would seem to contradict this, I think the best answers are usually the most simple  ;D

In this case, the simple answers (which have already been given) is the Tau's body type and culture/military training. The latter seems to be the strong explanation given that at least in the Old Tau codex, Farsight's Fire Warriors could have a weapon skill of 3 because of special, extensive hand to hand training undertaken to prepare them for battle against orks.

Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: praetorian1 on April 7, 2010, 02:28:49 AM
well even training can over come natural disabilities

the eyesight explanation would make the most since to me, and i dislike mine altogether now :P

are there battle suits (not knowing of tau proper terms) different Int. and WS, would tech. help them with there vision problems at closer ranges
just putting out there
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Underhand on April 7, 2010, 02:46:30 AM
They might help with the vision problem, but it wouldn't make up for the lifetime of just not being any good at reacting to fast moving, close ranged opponents.

It would be like giving someone who doesn't like tennis, rarely plays and doesn't put much effort into training some really high quality boots and expecting it to make them a skilled tennis player.  That same person on the other hand, might make an excellent rugby player.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Bumbles on April 7, 2010, 06:49:54 PM
I always liked the idea that the Tau looked out across the various battlefields and went "well those big green guys are fearsome in close quarters. Those spikey guys are monster close combatants. And those insects literally eat us if they get close enough. best just shoot them all. From a long way away".

They decided that getting to close to anything with a mouth, that was green or wore spikes on their clothes was a Bad Idea, so set about organising their armies so they didn't have to.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Gornon on April 9, 2010, 07:01:41 PM
Hmm, I don't get that impression about them, though.  Most of their battle tactics are converted hunting tactics that they used in their tribal days.  I got the idea from reading Tau background that even 'back in the day' they chucked spears and shot bows at their prey, rather than try to get it with a hand spear or club.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: lich on April 11, 2010, 01:28:04 AM
Would this give you a good idea why?
(https://www.40konline.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1d4chan.org%2Fimages%2F4%2F48%2FTau_melee.jpg&hash=a56081b030fdc884b324c2b68f8bc4fe78dd8bc6)
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Full Metal Geneticist on April 11, 2010, 03:47:06 AM
Well a decent idea is that their helmets are designed for long range firepower to make up for their poor eyesight. Its like trying to fight in close combat on a laptop screen of vision. No depth perception and all that. Technology can make up for the poor eyesight but not for the depth perception that comes from using a screen to look at things.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Benis on April 11, 2010, 04:12:41 AM
Technology can make up for the poor eyesight but not for the depth perception that comes from using a screen to look at things.

I would be surprised if they don't simply use dual/split screens in their helmets to achieve a depth perception, it is not like it is highly advanced technology (http://wildgames.es/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/virtual-boy.jpg)...
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Full Metal Geneticist on April 11, 2010, 04:39:46 AM
Which doesn't change the fact that the eye itself has some compensatory mechanisms for depth perception (you can see the effect if you try using "split eye" technology. Remember reality isn't quite like a computer screen since our eyes automatically do a lot of seeing for us that a camera  lens cannot. Its like attempting to fight while wearing blinkers (the camera only looks forwards)
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Benis on April 11, 2010, 05:02:07 AM
yes our current technology would have problems like the ones you describe but considering Tau technology and their persistent reliance on similar optical solutions (the set up on the helmets are very similar to the Battlesuits for example) I very much doubt that depth perception is a cause of problems for them.

I could see if the helmets contain some sort of support programme for ranged combat (helping the aim, noticing movements whatever) that could muck it up a bit in close combat but surely they would be able to quickly turn such programs off or even have them doing it automatically?
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Full Metal Geneticist on April 11, 2010, 05:04:17 AM
Or you know. They haven't been able to solve that problem....

Remember just because they have "technology" doesn't mean they know everything about it.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Benis on April 11, 2010, 05:20:50 AM
Yes that could be it but it feels like a massive handicap in that case, after all it is not only in close combat you need depth perception. It is also something that doesn't feel so extremely far into the future for us (in my incredibly layman opinion) so that solution doesn't really work for me. It is after all specific choice that the Tau has done concerning their helmets, they must have gone from a more traditional parallel eyesight to the current fit because the benefits outweighs the drawbacks.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Full Metal Geneticist on April 11, 2010, 05:50:21 AM
Depends, if your eyesight is already poor then this is a big boost.

Put it this way people with glasses actually have a sense of tunnel vision compared to the rest of the world. If you threw a ball at one of us our reactions are slow IF the ball is out of the view frame of our glasses.

With contact lenses the frame expands a lot so we would see the ball coming long before it hit but the glasses causes a sense of "tunnel vision". However its still not as good. This is with our good eyesight. If their eyesight as a whole is bad then this could be plausible.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Benis on April 11, 2010, 06:11:27 AM
But given their background as savannah living spearchuckers their eyesight should be about our level. Also your comparison with lenses if interesting since that's sort of how I would imagine that the Tau helmets work only perhaps a bit less invasive.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: praetorian1 on April 11, 2010, 06:58:43 AM
wouldn't this tie into the tau being farsighted and having trouble seeing things up close

it would also tie into the savannaha culture they have

is there mention of tau carrying any type of close combat weapon at all, i mean there's the butts of there rifles but even a bayonet on the end of a rifle is better than that (guard)
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Benis on April 11, 2010, 07:17:31 AM
it would also tie into the savannaha culture they have

You mean like us? And it is not a culture issue more of an evolutionary origin issue...

As for equipment, I would assume that they carry some sort of knife just like Space Marines and Imperial Guard, even if it is not meant for close combat (which could be said for Imperial Guard as well) it is pretty damn useful tool to have. It is hardly a question of them lacking a close combat weapon in comparison to a Guardsman.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: praetorian1 on April 11, 2010, 07:28:52 AM
er origin issue is what i meant sry

most IG regiments have some sort of bayonet drill (close combat being so prevalent in 40k)
just saying that guard will have bayonets and tau won't probably isn't helping the tau
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The Ecclesiarch on April 11, 2010, 08:18:28 AM
I just thought i would mention that the Tau dont seem to use offensive grenades either (like Frags) Plasma grenades that they issue to their soldiers are purely defensive! They dont seem to be geared towards offensive hand to hand at all.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Benis on April 11, 2010, 08:37:38 AM
That is more into the game mechanics though. Photon grenades are described as working similar to how frag grenades work. In game terms grenades in general have a very game mechanical function. You could perhaps argue that Tau deploy their grenades in a defensive fashion but I would imagine that guardsmen would make similar attempts if they got charged although frag grenades could possibly be less disorienting when compared to photon grenades.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: The Ecclesiarch on April 11, 2010, 09:41:38 AM
Yes a defensive wall of shrapnel makes sense, i just mentioned the Plasma grenades to further emphasize the Tau's crummy abilitys in hand to hand combat. As it says in the codex they will try and destroy an enemy through long ranged fire and then withdraw before the enemy gets close, or at least this is what they will usually do with few exceptions!
They are obviously as fast, strong and robust as a normal human, they just suck when it comes to smacking things with riflebutts. Even a Grot could in theory duel a Tau Firewarrior lol lol lol
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: lich on April 11, 2010, 11:24:43 AM
if I recall correctly isn't Commander Farsight one of the few Tau good in close combat?
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Benis on April 11, 2010, 11:38:48 AM
Yes, the Dawn Blade helps a lot. All the Tau in the Farsight Enclaves is better in close combat when it comes to rules, apparently due to extended combat with the Orks. It might also have to do with the runaway Fire caste culture the Enclaves probably have. I would view that more as game mechanics though.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Locke on April 12, 2010, 12:51:55 AM
I would have loved to jump on this earlier. Alas, thems the breaks. I just want to say to whoever it was a page and a half ago that suggested that the battlesuits provide additional combat ability, that's false. While it isn't apparent in the current codex, go pull out an old 3rd edition one and it will actually tell you what stat upgrades the suit provided and why. Stealths gave just +1S, while Crisis's due to their larger size gave +2 S, +1T, and +1W. No mention of close combat stats. Those are tied purely to being the Shas'ui\Shas'vre rank. Now, why did GW see fit to write the fluff that the Tau, a ranged combat species, should advance in close combat as their ranks improve rather than ranged combat is a little baffling to me.

Quote
is there mention of tau carrying any type of close combat weapon at all, i mean there's the butts of there rifles but even a bayonet on the end of a rifle is better than that (guard)

Well, they have the bonding knife and honour blade. Obviously they know what a knife is. And I doubt you'll see a Tau housewife at home blasting bread into slices with a pulse pistol ;). Most close combat weapons are a variation on a club or a knife, I'm positive the Tau know what both are. While I don't think they attach it to their gun, I'm sure Shas have knives issued as survivalist gear, if not as close combat weapons.


As to the actual root of Tau cc woes, I think there are a few reasons. Primarily there's the physique & psychology, but as that's been heavily vetted, I had an alternate idea. Has anybody considered that the Tau in close combat might actually be too preoccupied with their guns? Looking at the models, they're nearly as long as the firewarrior himself, and can't exactly be useful in combat the way a bolter could be. I could imagine that Tau being charged might look something like an old (Pardon the American reference) Revolutionary War charge. They're shooting down to the last second, some are reloading, both get cut down by people ready for close combat. Others are trying to fumble with their weapons to get a shot off before their head is cut off. I could see the Tau attempting that in lieu of actual hand to hand combat.

I still think Tau need stand & shoot xD.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Gornon on April 12, 2010, 01:21:25 AM
Quote
Has anybody considered that the Tau in close combat might actually be   too preoccupied with their guns?

I can agree with that.  Bolters look more like Carbines than Rifles.  As do las guns.  Think about most FPS.  The Sniper Rifle usually has superior damage and range, but lacks the hovering cross hairs in the air when being shot from the hip like other guns.  I think Pulse Rifles are like that.  Superior at range, but have a hard time up close and personnel, being very cumbersome to aim due to the barrel length.  Bolters would be assault rifles.  Las Guns would be that basic fire arm that never runs out of ammo.

However, the length of the gun isn't all bad.  The reason the bayonet replaced the spear was that the old school muskets and rifles were about spear length.  Add a bayonet and instant spear!  The Pulse Rifle could be the same, but I don't see any lugs on the front of the gun for a knife or bayonet, let alone images of Tau with such tools.  The fact that their rifles don't even have that speaks of Tau having  doctrines against hand to hand, not just physical problems. 

Of course, the real reason is that a knife blade would look goofy sticking out of the end of a Pulse Rifle. 

The gun might be used as a club, but I get the impression the gun is made from as light materials as possible.  All well and good for the solider hefting the gun, but less weight means the enemey get hit with less force.  This will also limit just what a Pulse Rife can do in CC.

Seems odd at first.  Even the modern Western Military still has close combat training and the like because house to house fighting would dictate that close quarters fights must occur.   The Codex does note that the Tau never preform close assaults, preferring to gun the enemy down (Just blow up the house the enemey is in with long range Rail, Seeker, or Crisis fire) or send in Kroot if the stronghold is too tough.
Title: Re: Tau in close combat
Post by: Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof) on April 12, 2010, 11:07:54 AM
They're physically shorter than the average bear race, shorter lived, have poor eyesight, and so on.

Just because they have the technology to compensate doesn't mean the grunts get it.  Even the Tau have an economy, resource limitations, and logistical issues to deal with, so not every Warrior gets encased on a Manta Battlesuit for protection and armament.  Cultural constraints have been mentioned already; if close combat is taboo then its not seen as a shortfall to be poor at it.