Topic: The New Model Imperial Fists--1750 point list

[Wyddr]

Okay, so my old armored rush list style, with Vindicators and Assault Termies and such, isn't going to work quite as well these days. I need volume of shots, not quality of shots, and I can't guarantee Rhinos will live much past a turn against my predominantly Eldar/Dark Eldar opponents. I came up with this list. It seems a bit crazy, so I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Combined Arms Detachment; Imperial Fists Doctrine

HQ
Chaplain in Terminator Armor w/Primarch's Wrath
Designed to anchor the Terminators. A good shooting platform, solid assault model, and Zealot is a nice mix with termies. The other option is a Librarian w/Termie Armor, Storm Shield, and Lv 2 upgrade, but the psychic phase is frequently too random to rely upon and he hasn't been working out.

Elites
5 Terminators w/Cyclone Missile Launcher
--in Land Raider Crusader w/Multimelta
This guys ride with the Chaplain. Or Deep Strike. Or Deploy on the Board. Part of the appeal here is the variety of tasks to which they can be applied. Land Raiders are hard as nails these days, too.

6 Sternguard w/2x Combimeltas (or combiplasma--uncertain)
--in Drop Pod
For early game disruption. Not sure if a pair of combiplasma or a pair of combimelta are more effective. Anyway, they aren't here to alpha strike so much as get into an inconvenient spot where the enemy will either have to deal with them or have them tearing up a flank.

Troops
Tactical Squad (10) w/Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun, Vet Sarge w/Combiflamer, Meltabombs
Tactical Squad (10) w/Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun, Vet Sarge w/Combiflamer, Meltabombs
These guys are here to score objectives by either camping on them or running to claim them while under the covering fire of the rest of the army. They are equipped to be versatile, and the Vet Sarge upgrade is mostly for the Ld upgrade, though the extra attack is nice, too. I've been toying around with heavy weapons, and I've come down to either taking the Heavy Bolter or nothing. Multimelta doesn't have the range, Plasma Cannon can't be snapshot, Missile Launcher is just a terrible weapon now, and the Lascannon is too expensive. A Heavy Bolter gives them range, some anti-infantry firepower boost, and works with the Imperial Fists Doctrine. If I dropped them both, I'd be buying myself a 7th Sternguard

Fast Attack
Storm Talon w/Skyhammer Missiles
Arguably one of the best flyers, point-for-point, in the game, barring the Night Scythe. Fast, long range, lots of shots, reasonably tough, accurate, and cheap--what's not to like?

Heavy Support
Predator w/Lascannon Sponsons
For Transport hunting/long range firepower on a tough armored chassis. AV13 is tough to cope with, and I expect it to live a healthy life so long as nobody gets too close. The fact that it scores these days is criminal.

Thunderfire Cannon
This gun is Yhwh-condemneded amazing. I will never leave home without it anymore. It is powerful, long ranged, can drop firepower *anywhere*, is versatile, and is surprisingly tough. Win-win-win.

9 Devastators w/4x Lascannons
Forms a firebase with the Thunderfire and the Predator. Nasty antitank power, tough, hard to dig out of cover. Stick them in Bolstered terrain and you've got a very capable unit. Altogether, my three heavy choices + Sternguard + Termies should give the Tacs sufficient cover to get in close and seize and hold midfield objectives.

This runs me about 1746 points or so. Basic plan is to have a firebase cover the advance of the Tacs + Termies + Land Raider. Storm Talon and Sternguard act as harassers/flankers.

Thoughts? 

[LoH]

Personally, I'd prefer a Whirlwind firing from out of LoS over an Annihilator Predator, especially with a squad of Devastators dug in. But that's just me. Alternatively, more heavy bolters in another Devastator squad?

Keep the Whirlwind out of LoS and it acts as bait.

If you try a Librarian again, roll only on Biomancy or Telepathy. Both have good powersets and decent primaris that you can fall back on.

[Grizzlykin]

I personally would not like to face this >< but well that's probably cause i know i not good enought tactician to get something out of my model yet ><.

[Wyddr]

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

Personally, I'd prefer a Whirlwind firing from out of LoS over an Annihilator Predator, especially with a squad of Devastators dug in. But that's just me. Alternatively, more heavy bolters in another Devastator squad?

Given my metagame, I'll get a lot more mileage out of the Pred. Besides, an AV11 Whirlwind is dead meat to Wave Serpents, and they've got the speed to get eyes on it in no time. Also, until I actually start cracking transports, the Whirlwind is totally useless. No thanks.

I would take Whirlwinds if I ever saw Orks or Nids anymore, but they're all gone from these parts. Even what Guard I see spends most of its time inside a Chimera if it can help it.

If you try a Librarian again, roll only on Biomancy or Telepathy. Both have good powersets and decent primaris that you can fall back on.

It's the only two tables I ever roll on, honestly. The trouble isn't really the powers, but rather the range. Again, everything I face lives inside vehicles. EVERYTHING. Psychic powers usually suck against Vehicles, and the short range makes it worse, so if I'm rolling for powers, I'm looking for the Blessings. Endurance/Iron Arm/Warp Speed are all good. Invisibility/Shrouding are both good. Everything else is balls. When we consider that the Librarian isn't even that great a psyker and that everybody needs to sit right by him to get any help from the Hood...meh. Good on paper, only so-so in execution. I'd rather have a Chaplain, which buffs the rest of the terminators and carries a big-ass bolter that can't be dispelled, than a Libby who has all his powers shut down by a Farseer and 2 Warlocks or can never get range to do much of anything to DE Raiders.

[LoH]

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

Personally, I'd prefer a Whirlwind firing from out of LoS over an Annihilator Predator, especially with a squad of Devastators dug in. But that's just me. Alternatively, more heavy bolters in another Devastator squad?

My local meta is significantly different from yours then. I see lots of Tau, IG, Marines. Multiple 'nid players, a couple Orks. There's like 2-3 Eldar players across both groups I play with regularly, and wave serp spam doesn't happen.

[Wyddr]

Yeah, I see Marines from time-to-time. Chaos Marines, too. Even in those instances, though, the Whirlwind isn't much more effective than the Pred (if at all), and even still most folks are driving around in Rhinos or are busy being Plague Marines. A whirlwind won't cut the mustard.

[LoH]

Yeah, I see Marines from time-to-time. Chaos Marines, too. Even in those instances, though, the Whirlwind isn't much more effective than the Pred (if at all), and even still most folks are driving around in Rhinos or are busy being Plague Marines. A whirlwind won't cut the mustard.

Your list was solid, I've been on the opposite side of the whirlwind enough to have respect for its capabilities.

[Caustic]

Okay, so my old armored rush list style, with Vindicators and Assault Termies and such, isn't going to work quite as well these days. I need volume of shots, not quality of shots, and I can't guarantee Rhinos will live much past a turn against my predominantly Eldar/Dark Eldar opponents. I came up with this list. It seems a bit crazy, so I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Lets get started then. I recently completed an Escalation League with Crimson Fists (basically the same as Imperial Fists now) and placed very well (3rd) so I can offer some advice.

Combined Arms Detachment; Imperial Fists Doctrine

HQ
Chaplain in Terminator Armor w/Primarch's Wrath
Designed to anchor the Terminators. A good shooting platform, solid assault model, and Zealot is a nice mix with termies. The other option is a Librarian w/Termie Armor, Storm Shield, and Lv 2 upgrade, but the psychic phase is frequently too random to rely upon and he hasn't been working out.

If you want to run a Chaplain or Librarian as your primary HQ, Sentinels of Terra is a bit better since the unique artifacts are better suited for support HQs. The Bones of Osrak in particular are exceptional for Librarians (+1 Warp Charge, Reroll Psychic Tests). Otherwise, I ran a Master of the Forge with the Primarch's Wraith on a Bike and he was the best I could do in terms of extra firepower and mobility. His high ballistic skill combined with Bolter Drill (Since it says its a bolter I argue it works for the Primarch's Wraith but I've been challenged a few times) and his harness weapons means hes a fairly good shooty HQ, minus an invulnerable save.

Elites
5 Terminators w/Cyclone Missile Launcher
--in Land Raider Crusader w/Multimelta
This guys ride with the Chaplain. Or Deep Strike. Or Deploy on the Board. Part of the appeal here is the variety of tasks to which they can be applied. Land Raiders are hard as nails these days, too.

I'm not sure this unit really needs a Land Raider since these guys are shooting Terminators.  I'd argue that these points could be better used on two units of three Centurions with Grav Cannons and Hurricane Bolters (which shoot a bit better then terminators do) or on a unit of Assault Terminators which continue to be very effective units coming out of a LR. It's probably not your style, but Pedro Kantor likes to hang out with Assault Terminators for the bonus attacks too. Since you've filled your Heavy Support slots, you'd have to run Sentinels of Terra to go the Centurion route though unfortunately.

6 Sternguard w/2x Combimeltas (or combiplasma--uncertain)
--in Drop Pod
For early game disruption. Not sure if a pair of combiplasma or a pair of combimelta are more effective. Anyway, they aren't here to alpha strike so much as get into an inconvenient spot where the enemy will either have to deal with them or have them tearing up a flank.

Considering the changes to the vehicle damage table, in my opinion these guys don't have enough meltagun shots to really be a threat to most builds. Since they are only Combi-weapons too, if you roll low on the turn they arrive they just become a suicide squad or free First Blood.

I'd strongly recommend giving them at least two specials (Meltaguns in this case) and then adding 2-3 more Combi-Weapons into the mix. You should also consider running Grav Weapons, since I've found them to be highly useful against the most threatening units in the game (Wraithknight, Riptide, Centurions) with their high rate of fire and the fact they don't have a 1/6 chance to blow up when you use them.

Grav Weapons and Bolters have a remarkable synergy in that they cover each other's weaknesses against most units the enemy can throw at you.

Troops
Tactical Squad (10) w/Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun, Vet Sarge w/Combiflamer, Meltabombs
Tactical Squad (10) w/Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun, Vet Sarge w/Combiflamer, Meltabombs
These guys are here to score objectives by either camping on them or running to claim them while under the covering fire of the rest of the army. They are equipped to be versatile, and the Vet Sarge upgrade is mostly for the Ld upgrade, though the extra attack is nice, too. I've been toying around with heavy weapons, and I've come down to either taking the Heavy Bolter or nothing. Multimelta doesn't have the range, Plasma Cannon can't be snapshot, Missile Launcher is just a terrible weapon now, and the Lascannon is too expensive. A Heavy Bolter gives them range, some anti-infantry firepower boost, and works with the Imperial Fists Doctrine. If I dropped them both, I'd be buying myself a 7th Sternguard

A Combi-Grav would be a bit better then a Combi-Flamer in my experience, since opportunity shots with them can be pretty deadly if the enemy starts within 18" of you.

Fast Attack
Storm Talon w/Skyhammer Missiles
Arguably one of the best flyers, point-for-point, in the game, barring the Night Scythe. Fast, long range, lots of shots, reasonably tough, accurate, and cheap--what's not to like?

Heavy Support
Predator w/Lascannon Sponsons
For Transport hunting/long range firepower on a tough armored chassis. AV13 is tough to cope with, and I expect it to live a healthy life so long as nobody gets too close. The fact that it scores these days is criminal.

Thunderfire Cannon
This gun is Yhwh-condemneded amazing. I will never leave home without it anymore. It is powerful, long ranged, can drop firepower *anywhere*, is versatile, and is surprisingly tough. Win-win-win.

9 Devastators w/4x Lascannons
Forms a firebase with the Thunderfire and the Predator. Nasty antitank power, tough, hard to dig out of cover. Stick them in Bolstered terrain and you've got a very capable unit. Altogether, my three heavy choices + Sternguard + Termies should give the Tacs sufficient cover to get in close and seize and hold midfield objectives.

These selections are pretty good. I'd be tempted to try to find a way to include an Imperial Bunker with Ammo Reserves (reroll 1s to hit if  you are inside) to place my Lascannon devastators in to make them even more effective. Fortifications are in keeping with the fluff for Imperial Fists too since they are Siege Specialists.

Good luck with your list!

[Wyddr]

I *could* go with Assault Terminators (and even save points by taking some claws), but the Tac Termies are taking full advantage of the Fist's Tactics and really aren't that much worse in assault against anything not sporting an AP2 CC weapon. As I own both units, I'll probably swap back and forth and see which I like best. For now, I prefer the Tac Termies for the sheer flexibility.

As for Grav Centurions, that's a big *no*. Great on paper, but too damned slow and too short ranged to be of use against my primarily Eldar/Dark Eldar opponents. Additionally the new edition makes them a tad weaker against vehicles, which is what I'd largely need them for. And anyway I don't have the heavy support slots (not using the Sentinels of Terra).

I've decided to trade out the Sternguard for a Command squad with Apothecary and 4 x meltaguns in a pod. I realized that I was taking Sternguard to fulfill a specialist role whereas they are generalist units. The Command Squad is comparably as durable with FNP and has the ability to consistently kick out meltagun fire on every turn. Oh, and is cheaper, too.

[Caustic]

I *could* go with Assault Terminators (and even save points by taking some claws), but the Tac Termies are taking full advantage of the Fist's Tactics and really aren't that much worse in assault against anything not sporting an AP2 CC weapon. As I own both units, I'll probably swap back and forth and see which I like best. For now, I prefer the Tac Termies for the sheer flexibility.

You are right that Tactical Terminators benefit better from the Imperial Fists bonuses, but the chief reason for going Assault Terminators (most likely with Hammer/Shield) is not so much AP2 CCWs but the greater survivability against the abundance of AP2 ranged weapons that are floating around. Wraithknights, Riptides, Centurions, and Pask-Executioners can throw storms of AP2 against which the invulnerable save helps considerably.

As for Grav Centurions, that's a big *no*. Great on paper, but too damned slow and too short ranged to be of use against my primarily Eldar/Dark Eldar opponents. Additionally the new edition makes them a tad weaker against vehicles, which is what I'd largely need them for. And anyway I don't have the heavy support slots (not using the Sentinels of Terra).

I was at first quite dismissive of Centurions too, but after witnessing the royal mess they can make of MEQs, TEQs, and armored MCs I changed my mind. The range of Grav Cannon Centurions is not that poor when compared to Tactical Squads and Tactical Terminators, and in many games your opponent is going to come to you anyway unless he is Tau or Serpent Eldar. In these situations you may spend a turn or two getting into position, but it would be no different for Terminators or Tacticals.

I've had Devastator Centurions carry many games for me, but there is one game I lost big time against an eldar player with dual Serpeants and dual Wraithknights with Heavy Wraithcannons at 1000pts. The deployment was Hammer and Anvil (ugh.) and he Seized the Initiative. I had Centurions in a Bunker and Devastators with Heavy Bolters on top as my additional units. He claimed Warlord when my Master of the Forge on a bike failed his 2+ Look Out Sir and died instantly to one Str.10 shot.

I commented to my highly experienced opponent that my Centurions were pretty worthless because their range was too short and they were too slow to get anywhere near him without dying. He replied that if I would've left them in the Bunker he wouldn't have been able to take 3 of the 4 objectives because the Bunker was within 24" of them.  In essence, his point was that if you take Centurions and camp them in range of most of the board's objectives, their lack of range is moot because your opponent has to either kill them, come within range of your guns, or lose. An interesting advanced strategy that I think you should try out, at least for game or two.

I've decided to trade out the Sternguard for a Command squad with Apothecary and 4 x meltaguns in a pod. I realized that I was taking Sternguard to fulfill a specialist role whereas they are generalist units. The Command Squad is comparably as durable with FNP and has the ability to consistently kick out meltagun fire on every turn. Oh, and is cheaper, too.

This is a great idea. I'm sure you'll find these guys to be quite capable of what you need them to do.

[Wyddr]

You are right that Tactical Terminators benefit better from the Imperial Fists bonuses, but the chief reason for going Assault Terminators (most likely with Hammer/Shield) is not so much AP2 CCWs but the greater survivability against the abundance of AP2 ranged weapons that are floating around. Wraithknights, Riptides, Centurions, and Pask-Executioners can throw storms of AP2 against which the invulnerable save helps considerably.

This is what the Land Raider is for--getting them where they need to be without getting shot. Of all the units you named, I will only potentially see Wraithknights anymore (and even then probably not). The biggest AP 2 concern is from Disintegrators and the occasional bladestorming shuri-cat, and the Tacs can cope in that instance. They'll need a little bit more coddling than the Assault Termies, but they make up for it in the form of heavy shooting potential.   

I'm the only Tau player hereabouts and all the IG players have died out. Not overly concerned about Centurions, as they are also very rare.

  In essence, his point was that if you take Centurions and camp them in range of most of the board's objectives, their lack of range is moot because your opponent has to either kill them, come within range of your guns, or lose. An interesting advanced strategy that I think you should try out, at least for game or two.

I'm well aware of this tactic, but they're very very expensive to have sit on their butts for most of the game and not contribute to offense. Especially when one considers I'll be facing sufficient wave serpents and Disintegrator Ravagers to make them mostly useless by picking them off beyond their engagement range. I would argue that area denial and counter-offensive are about the only thing you can do with Grav Centurions, unless you happen to score a Dawn of War deployment, which is only 1/3 of the time.

The game you play then, is on those missions with multiple objectives (3 of 6), is 'where are the objectives'. If I'm my opponent and I'm facing Grav Cents, I just stick as many objectives as I can in my DZ. If there are odd numbers of objectives (67% chance), I can maybe nullify the Centurions *entire* tactical use. In games where there is only one Objective or Kill points, they don't really become that useful as contesting an objective from them in the late game isn't hard or even necessary.

I really like them, but they are expensive to field (and buy), are competing for slots with better units, are tactically inflexible, and are not well suited to my metagame. I'll pass. I've played too many games now where a 24" range has crippled a units capacity to contribute to the game (and especially if they can't even run). For the cost of a Land Raider, Centurions aren't making the cut. I'd rather have the Land Raider or the Terminators.