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Offline The Black Dahlia Murder

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Tau in close combat
« on: March 30, 2010, 07:14:59 PM »
Why are Tau so bad in close combat? Its not like they have to send as many troops to the front lines like conscripts.

Offline Raktra (So long, I guess)

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2010, 07:20:31 PM »
I think it's because they're just pretty feeble, and are far more suited to making sure things can't really get to grips with them. They could also be quite slow to react in up-close situations due to their vision or something, hence the low WS and I.

Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2010, 07:35:26 PM »
They also view close-combat as savage and barbaric, hence few Tau are willing to dedicate themselves to studying it.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2010, 09:52:15 PM »
There have been at least two hypothesis offered about the place. One - that the Tau have trouble changing their focal point quickly and so a rapidly closing and/or moving enemy poses difficulty. Two - Tau have a poor reaction speed compared to humans and thus do not adjust quickly when confronted in close quarters. However, the Air Caste appear to have no issue with reaction time and are able to readily compete with their Imperial counterparts so I put less weight upon that factor. Additionally, as can be seen from the potential increased ability with battlesuit wearers technology may be able to compensate for the focus and/or reaction speed issue.

Cultural issues, as stated, also are involved. When it's just not the done thing you are not as well practiced nor trained in the matter. Keeping in mind though that the material we have does say that Tau are trained in close quarters combat if not to any extreme as the Imperial or the Orks. Ethereals, for example, appear to be quite good at it.
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Offline Greyshades

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2010, 11:16:51 PM »
The physical reaction time / vision limitations could still make sense, as their technology could easily compensate for visual deficiencies or slower reaction time in areas such as aerial or space combat, and could even help compensate for shooting for the basic tau fire warrior (its easy to imagine enhanced optics or radar type devices, with computer assisted targeting etc), but close combat largely relies on the actual physical characteristics of the individual, where the tau may simply be lacking compared to humans.  Of course, their larger suits may help by making them tough to injure, stronger and faster, which results in better close combat survivability.

just my 2 cents

Offline The Ecclesiarch

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2010, 01:38:32 PM »
Its physiology, the Tau are as tough and robust as a normal human but they lack the same potential as humans in fighting hand to hand (and thats not exactly saying much :D) i would say its primarily racial.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2010, 01:40:40 PM »
What potential would this be more precisely?
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Offline The Ecclesiarch

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2010, 01:46:43 PM »
The potential that indicates that they NEED big battle suits to wield a hand to hand weapon as skillfully as a Commissar! Or it could be how they live (peacefully) perhaps the Tau before the Ethereals came along were more skilled in hand to hand but thats not the case anymore. From a racial perspective the Orks for example are Always (Always etc) fighting, the Tau do not!
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2010, 01:57:36 PM »
That's a circular argument. The Tau use big battlesuits as they need to use big battlesuits. There's no why there.  ;)  If you primarily focus upon the Fire Caste they are also always fighting or training for the same. In the same manner as the Imperial Guard. The historical argument is also flawed as the same example of the Guard could be used back in the early gunpowder days compared to 40K.

Fire Warrior (yes, yuck) included scenes where getting down and dirty were seen as abhorrent but not to the extent of physical incapacity. The Shas' still did what was needed versus a dug in Guard force.
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Offline The Ecclesiarch

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2010, 02:10:38 PM »
Well if thats the case then it goes back to their race :-\ the problem with something like WS is that its one of those more intagible characteristics, looking at other characteristics we know Orks are tough because of their resilient physiology and the fact they are generally big! Kroot have elasticated muscle density so they are strong, both have high WS because they fight alot, how can you define Weaponskill within raical perameters? Well the truth is that i dont for sure, Its Race + Experience but race has the final say in the universe in which we play, no Tau is going to have WS6 because he is a Tau!

Personally i liked Fire Warrior, it was a decent game for Playstation and its probably what got me back into 40K after a long break away ;)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 02:11:51 PM by The Ecclesiarch »
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2010, 02:19:12 PM »
That's still circular reasoning. Tau aren't good in close quarter because they're Tau.  ;) Which is the usual problem when trying to compare the fluff with game statlines. "Fighting a lot" isn't much of a qualifier as it has no regards for the skill or training. Who would you place your money on - a professional athlete who has been constantly training under competent supervision or some guy from the bar who fights the same amount? Now translate that to a military force.

Fire Warrior the book. Not the video game. It's not generally a good idea trying to understand the world build from a video game.
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Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2010, 02:29:08 PM »
Its because they don't need to practice hand to hand when you can shoot them from a long way away.

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2010, 02:31:32 PM »
They do practice hand to hand (Fire Warrior and Kill Team.) Same as contemporary armies do today. No matter what you do or how well you plan - the enemy will get in your face sooner or later.
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Offline The Ecclesiarch

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2010, 02:42:08 PM »
:) even if the reasoning is flawed it seems the truth of the matter, in conclusion its exactly because they are Tau that they suck so much at hand to hand, yes i agree that its hardly the best reason but its just easier in terms of a tabletop wargame, some races are better than fighting than others, thats just the way it is!

With military training you have to look at what the training relates too, an infantry man is taught how to operate his assault rifle, a gunner how to load and fire shells. Obviously training is going to beat raw brute force, a small guy who knows how to fire a gun and maintain his weapon is going to win over a big, brawny dude that doesnt. But thats within specific circumstances (within the context of a firefight/war) the bar guy would probably whoop the soldiers arse if they met in a bar lol

I would NEVER read Fire Warrior the book! I would read a book about the Tau but no way would i read a novelization of a game. The video game was totally ok in terms of depicting the universe, the cutscenes were decent, if you dont believe me go and check em out on Youtube :D
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Blasphemy cries out for purgation from the faithful.
Blessed are the war makers.
By Bolter and Flamer we purify the faithless.
Hate sanctifies faith.
Anger and Hatred are mankind's highest virtues.
Let he who would be without sin cast the first grenade.
To be bigoted is human, to be unrepentant of thy bigotry is divine.
Tolerance is ignorance.
+++ Scribe Jack Hanson, Terra +++

Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2010, 07:01:55 PM »
Well, Ecclesiarch, I don't think anyone's disagreeing with the notion that Tau are bad at close combat because they're Tau, but what we're looking after are the reasons why being a Tau makes you bad at close combat, so to speak.
So far, we've presented cultural, doctrinal and physiological arguments. Looks like a good day's work for the Fluff think tank.

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Offline praetorian1

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #15 on: April 1, 2010, 04:48:20 AM »
i would think its a little bit all these reasons

but also tau tech. isn't quite as good for bashing the enemy over the head as say a lasgun or choppa
mainly maybe its the equipment mostly
example guardsmen breaks fire warrior rifle, fire warrior can not fight any more and thus is removed off the table plus they don't have any real close combat weapons like bayonets and chain swords but the ones that do are skilled in there use
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Offline Sheepz

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #16 on: April 1, 2010, 05:25:18 AM »
I'd like to think of it as 'because they're Tau', but the way I see it, they probably put less emphasis on hand to hand. This is not to say they don't do it, but imagine a soldier of today with his wrestling and bayonet practice and then imagine the solider of the 40K universe. Most of the things in 40K seem to want to kill you messily with a chainaxe, so naturally you're a bit more used to screaming crazies charging at you with glowing swords as big as people. While the Tau might train for close quarter fighting, they probably don't have the same mentality towards it as other races do.

Offline Sayt

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #17 on: April 1, 2010, 05:45:00 AM »
i would think its a little bit all these reasons

but also tau tech. isn't quite as good for bashing the enemy over the head as say a lasgun or choppa
mainly maybe its the equipment mostly
example guardsmen breaks fire warrior rifle, fire warrior can not fight any more and thus is removed off the table plus they don't have any real close combat weapons like bayonets and chain swords but the ones that do are skilled in there use

Uhm, I've not seen it stated anywhere that Tau Technology is fragile.  In fact, if a lasgun shot a pulse rifle and a pulse rifle, the las gun would probably be rather worse for wear.

As for why're they're worse in close combat.....Slow refelxes, and they're not built for bashing someone on the head, they're built for tossing spears. (The Fire caste used to be hunters in an African Savannah style area of the Tau homeworld.  (Or at least thats how I picture the 'plains areas')

Offline Benis

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #18 on: April 1, 2010, 06:33:33 AM »
As for why're they're worse in close combat.....Slow refelxes,

Like Rummy said, that conflicts with their performance as pilots though.

and they're not built for bashing someone on the head, they're built for tossing spears. (The Fire caste used to be hunters in an African Savannah style area of the Tau homeworld.

Unlike humans? ;)

Personally I prefer to view it as a combination of less agility and generally weaker physique compared to humans which means that they will be at a disadvantage in close combat with humans and that this is so slight so it is best represented by worse Weapon Skill and Initiative. If a Tau and a human would perform some sort of set of physical tests the Tau would always be slightly worse than the human, not by much but enough to make the human physically superior (sort of like a civilian with normal physique compared to a trained soldier).

Offline Sayt

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Re: Tau in close combat
« Reply #19 on: April 1, 2010, 07:43:08 AM »
As for why're they're worse in close combat.....Slow refelxes,

Like Rummy said, that conflicts with their performance as pilots though.
This is true.  Possibly they just have slow muscles so to speak.  they mentally process information fine, they just have trouble gettig their arms to move.  I'd be unsurprised of the Tau had an equivalent of a MIU to allow direct controll of the craft.

and they're not built for bashing someone on the head, they're built for tossing spears. (The Fire caste used to be hunters in an African Savannah style area of the Tau homeworld.

Unlike humans? ;)

Personally I prefer to view it as a combination of less agility and generally weaker physique compared to humans which means that they will be at a disadvantage in close combat with humans and that this is so slight so it is best represented by worse Weapon Skill and Initiative. If a Tau and a human would perform some sort of set of physical tests the Tau would always be slightly worse than the human, not by much but enough to make the human physically superior (sort of like a civilian with normal physique compared to a trained soldier).

Yes, but Human beings also evolved to beat each other around the head with pointy metal sticks (Ref: Up till 200 years ago), and we got rather good at it.  Tau didn't.  They're focus seemed to be entirely based apon tossing round pointy bits of wood at each other (And rocks(Humans are mean, throw rocks at them!)), and later on when they had them, firearms.

 


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