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The Armies of 40k => Necrons => Topic started by: Gutstikk on November 1, 2011, 06:30:54 PM

Title: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 1, 2011, 06:30:54 PM
Fast Attack Discussion:

This thread is reserved for discussion of the 2011 Necron Codex Fast Atack units. Please discuss other Force Organization entries in their appropriate threads. Discussion of dedicated transports can be placed either alongside the unit (where appropriate) or in the Necron Vehicle Discussion thread.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: headfirst on November 5, 2011, 11:42:11 PM
Destroyers now... wow. Slightly cheaper, can fight their way out of combat a little better, but shorter range. The new gauss cannons are going to be interesting, haven't playtested them enough. My destroyerspam tactic of old won't be as effective against those annoying orks.

What are people's opinions on mixed squads? Less slots, but the new destroyers are worse against light vehicles. There is a neat bonus trick though; due to how RP works, you can choose what type of destroyer comes back on each roll, as long as it died that turn.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Galef on November 6, 2011, 01:25:33 AM
I think Destroyers took the biggest hit from the nerf bat.  The Gauss cannon has 12" less range, 1 less Str, & 1 less shot than before.  The change from jetbike to jump infantry hurt a little, but not nearly as bad as the gauss cannon.

So what did we get in return?  10 pts cheaper & AP3.  Not worth it in my opinion.

Heavy Destroyers pretty much stayed the same (except the jetbike thing).  Now that they don't compete with the othet Heavies, I would consider taking them.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: WisdomLS on November 6, 2011, 04:18:09 AM
They may have been nerffed a bit but the switch to FA is great, a solid anti-heavy infantry or vehicle unit in fast attack is great, they were better as jetbikes but are still pretty good.

I really like the Tomb blades for their points and the wraiths are really deadly and still quite survivable plus whip coils are very useful for the army.

I think the best unit of a really good FA selection are the scarabs, I think most armies are gonna be running a unit or two of these and can see them eating heavy mech armies for lunch.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 6, 2011, 09:02:05 AM
I'm excited for the new Destroyer rules. In the previous book I never felt the AP on the guns made them worth fielding compared to other, cheaper, more resilient units that brought more to the table and almost the same firepower. Now? I see them forcing some tough choices on enemies knocked out of transports - deploy behind the vehicle or in the wreck for cover and hang tight, or drop on the closer side hoping to assault and risk vaporization.

Combining types was a good move too. That'll take loads of pressure of putting them onto the field. On the other hand, I've always loved scarabs, and it'll be interesting to see if I want less teams now that the destroyers have a more focused impact on enemy units, or if their new rules make me want even more scarabs.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 6, 2011, 05:59:36 PM
Just got finished my first game with the new rules some thoughts:

- Destroyers are still solid enough after the seemingly-brutal redesign though they are definitely powered down. *Rumours were a lie - you CAN take units of 5*. I think people will be much more likely to field Heavy Destroyers now too. The regular Destroyers are basically a way to deal with Feel No Pain things (which are increasingly more likely) without having to invest zillion points, plus you can throw a Heavy Destroyer or two into a unit in order to have some anti-vehicle options rather easily. I'd say despite my initial reservations they are decent.

- Scarabs are extremely solid and will be consistently useful. Spyders are incredibly efficient too and pump out extra scarabs with incredible ease - keep in mind that unengaged Spyders can add Scarabs to units which are *in combat*...nasty. Max Scarab squads will be an excellent tie-up and combat support unit and small units (3-5) will be useful as vehicle annoyance. Personally I think a squad of 10 is a must-have.

- Wraiths are extremely playable and useful now. Rending, wound-allocation shenanigans on up to three models, ignoring terrain and most importantly takeable in units up to 6 - very solid. They do not get Reanimation Protocols but are much more survivable against small arms fire (their achilles' heel previously). I could see a full unit of 6 being useful in any army, you could probably build an army themed around them reasonably well too.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Changeyname on November 6, 2011, 06:05:45 PM
The regular Destroyers are basically a way to deal with Feel No Pain things (which are increasingly more likely) without having to invest zillion points
Just wondering what you've seen that I've missed that'll let them deal with FNP units any more than anything else?

I can't see anything in their weaponry or rules that'll make a mockery of FNP...  :-\
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightWolf on November 6, 2011, 06:39:46 PM
The destroyer's gauss cannons have low enough AP to ignore FNP.  I think that is what Nightmoor was getting at.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Changeyname on November 6, 2011, 06:43:00 PM
Except that's not how FNP works at all, if that is what he's talking about have another read of the FNP rules and/or one of the Rules Forum thread explaining how FNP can be ignored..... the destroyers AP doesn't qualify I'm afraid  :-\

If it's something else please explain away :)
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightWolf on November 6, 2011, 07:54:50 PM
Touche.  I just double checked and you are correct changeyname.  In that case the only FNP that destroyers will be ignoring is that of units with only toughness of 3 (which really only effects DE, guard, or 'nids and only under specific circumstances).  However, despite the nerf, I do think that destroyers are solid, albiet in a more situational manner.

I'm also curious to see how well Tomb Blade's do when put down on the table top.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 6, 2011, 08:43:24 PM
I should have been more specific - Any MEQ equivalents or similar that have Feel No Pain shy of Terminators will no longer get two saves against Destroyer guns, they'll only get a single one. The odds of killing a Blood Angel squad member under FnP go from a dismal 1/6 to 1/2 (no cover) and 1/4 (cover) because of the AP 3 gun.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Tomb Spyder on November 6, 2011, 11:04:18 PM
I really like what they did with the Destroyers.  Being able to mix in the heavies with them and moving to fast attack really is nice.  Although I dislike the nerfs to the unit, I have to say this is a good unit for putting the hurt on MEQs unfortunate enough to have left their vehicles.  For how "shooty" this army is going to be, I don't see them being a big priority for the enemy either.  Park them behind some terrain and wait, IMO.

As for the Wraiths, they look great but once again the low initiative really gets me.  I understand the Necrons are not a CC army, but that doesn't mean we don't have a few elite-type units who do specialize in it.

As for the Scarabs.....I don't think I will be able to send enough of these at my enemies tanks!  These little buggers would scare the hell out of me if I were Marines.  What do you do?  You can blow all your heavy fire into them if you want...that just keeps the fire off my Doomsday Arcs!  Or you can ignore them knowing your AV14 will turn into a Rhino real fast.  These things are probably the sole reason, after reading the codex, that I am going to stay playing the Necrons.  I am not overly impressed with 90% of the units in the codex, but when adding these things into the mix, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: pudd on November 7, 2011, 03:01:46 AM
In that case the only FNP that destroyers will be ignoring is that of units with only toughness of 3

Had the strength of the weapon not changed, you would have been correct.

Wraiths: I can see a lot of them being upgraded to having warp coils so they kinda retain their decent initiative.

Destroyers: Always liked destroyers. They have gotten better and worse in different areas but overall I dont think I can complain about them given their new points cost.

Scarabs: Big buff from last codex I think. Will be running atleast 1 full squad whenever I can.

Tomb blades: Not sure about them, our fast attack has some nice options and I'm unsure if there is room for them. A nice tactic for annoying people as a distraction unit maybe is to upgrade them to have shadowlooms and then go turbo boosting with them. Just hope the enemy don't have some sort of flame weapon because the tomb blades don't have a great save.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Shas'Oink on November 7, 2011, 07:54:33 AM
Personally I think the reduction in range of the destroyers is probably about right. It will also encourage them to get in at the enemy but gives the enemy a chance to fight back too... They were way too overpowered against things like Tau and Orks before... now they have shifted focus a little more towards MEQ which is no real bad thing considering the other weapon availabilities throughout the army.

Some people are complaining about the loss of S from the cannons, but to be honest you no longer NEED them to be doing anti transport duty... as there are a plethora of alternatives that can now do this. Including of course the scarabs themselves! (these look awesome on paper by the way and they would scare the bejesus out of me too!)

In short, the destroyers are (another) example of a unit that is no more clearly defined within the expanded Necron unit selections. I've already said it once in another thread, but the trick is NOT to compare them to the old rules, but look at them in teh context of this current codex and the other units that you now have access to. They do things other units can't... and other units can do things they they used to be able to!
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Sirdrasco on November 7, 2011, 08:42:44 AM
Wraiths with a low initiative will probable best be run with whips to ensure they go first, especially against hi-int armies.

To me the range reduction kind of hurt destroyers, but a mixed unit of 5 can still put down a lot of hurt.

Over all it looks like we're a midrange army now, gotta close to dish it out.

Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 7, 2011, 11:43:45 AM
Destroyers can never negate Feel No Pain, their gun's strength isn't high enough for Instant Death on T3 or higher, nor is the AP low enough and it does not say "no armor saves may be taken" or anything to that effect. Thus I feel those comments should be removed as to not confuse any new players...

About the Wraiths. I had a great time with them in my last game. I used 3 with Whip Coils obviously. They are a necessary upgrade to keep the small unit size from getting wiped out in combat before they can strike. I don't see the point in the Transdimensional Beamer because of the short range and being a heavy weapon. The Particle casters are a maybe because they are cheap. They don't add a close combat attack right? So basically it's to get another wound in before you assault. Because of this unit, I was able to tie up two Slaanesh Demon Princes and a Chaos Dreadnought (all in a single, multiple combat) and eat them with the help of my C'Tan shard. It took two turns but the invulnerable save of the Wraiths took the return hits no problem.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 7, 2011, 01:49:21 PM
They don't add a close combat attack right? So basically it's to get another wound in before you assault.

They are a Pistol weapon, so you would get the bonus.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Benis on November 7, 2011, 01:55:28 PM
They are still only one pistol each and since the Wraiths do not have a starting close combat weapon you are still left out of the bonus attack for being equipped with two close combat weapons.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 7, 2011, 02:17:27 PM
I always understood that each model is counted as having a basic close combat weapon, as stated under "normal close combat weapons" on pg 42. Since it mentions things like bayonets, combat blades, etc - ie.* things which are not actually stated in a unit's wargear entry* alongside stuff like chainswords then as far as I read it all models are assumed to be making their close combat attacks with a close combat weapon. Only things which are clearly two-handed (ex. rifle butt, same page) are not combinable for the dual-weapon bonus attack. Am I not seeing something here?

Edit: to add to the overall discussion, I think 6x Whip Coil Wraiths with a Destroyer Lord are going to be nice spiritual successor to the old Wraith Wing armies of the past as the Coils can help the Destroyer Lord get his attacks in first against other nasty combat characters, which helps alleviate the fact that he has no options for an invul save.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Benis on November 7, 2011, 02:58:48 PM
So by that logic Space Marines should have an additional attack since they are equipped with pistols? No, what it states is that those weapons are assumed to not grant any additional bonus, not that they count like a close combat weapon for this purpose. You cannot assume that a unit has equipment that it doesn't has.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 7, 2011, 04:12:16 PM
So by that logic Space Marines should have an additional attack since they are equipped with pistols?

Hmm, this is interesting since I've always understood this to be the case. At least, it appears a lot of SM players I've faced have been playing it this way. Are you 100% sure? If it's the case then I've been getting somewhat gipped by Marine opponents...
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Benis on November 7, 2011, 05:11:49 PM
Are you sure they aren't Space Wolves or Chaos Space Marines, both which are specifically equipped with pistol, gun and close combat weapon?

The rule does not state that models are always equipped with a close combat weapon, it does not state that guns and other shooting weapons beyond pistols counts as close combat weapons. The model has to be equipped with a close combat weapon to actually have one, there is no rule which states otherwise in the rulebook.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: WisdomLS on November 7, 2011, 06:13:55 PM
I totally agree with Benis on this one, you must have two CCW's in your equipment section to gain the bonus.
Futhermore to gain the bonus attack a model must have two single handed CCW's and the close combat weapon everyone is assumed to have is not stated as single handed.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Jerseyboy381 on November 7, 2011, 07:04:37 PM
Back to the point...I look at Necron Fast attack and see the Tyranid Elites argument.  There's a lot of good stuff there and only 3 slots.  We are going to have to make some really tough choices.  I know I want Wraiths, Scarabs and Destroyers, but I'd want a squad of heavy destroyers and one of regular ones and thst's not going to work.  Last week Necrons sucked because we had no choices...now we have som many good ones...
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 7, 2011, 10:44:49 PM
Agreed that the Fast Attack section is bursting with options, I think many Necron armies will be defined mostly by what their Fast Attack section looks like.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: nawari on November 8, 2011, 12:24:55 AM
could one compromise by taking wraiths and destryoers. then for scarabs take spyders?
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 8, 2011, 12:30:49 AM
could one compromise by taking wraiths and destryoers. then for scarabs take spyders?

No, assuming you mean use Spyders to create Scarabs. Read the "Scarab Hive" special rule under the Canoptek Spyder entry on page 46.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: syth773 on November 8, 2011, 11:29:38 AM
to me, 1 squad of scarabs and 1 squad of destroyers are pretty much mandatory, wraiths are something fun to use if you have the points.  If I did take them sticking a destroyer lord in with them would be pretty nasty as whip coils would let him strike before the enemy (yay rerolled hits).  if you don't take the wraiths a squad of heavy destroyers make excellent anti-armor (if only preferred enemy let you reroll ranged attacks too 2 squads of destroyers would be mandatory).
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: sephiroa on November 8, 2011, 02:07:10 PM
i love scarabs, they really are tank eaters,
but what about their cc? i can't help but say that they just are SOO weak, you could use them to kill some tanks, ,but their entropic strike, is no use agains normal units, only against a HQ or multi wounded model.
i would use them to take down that immobilised tank, or that annoying rino, but appart from that? not sure
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 8, 2011, 02:25:40 PM
I could see Scarabs useful against Monstrous Creatures will good armor saves. Sure they'll take a big hit in combat but you only need to do one wound to cripple the enemy. Then next turn just poke it with a stick and watch it fall over. I tried a multiple combat with 6 swarms vs a Chaos Dread and Slaanesh Winged Demon Prince, I dropped the Dread down to AV10 10 8 but wasn't able to wound the Prince sadly (passed his one save). If I had a full unit of Scarabs I think I could have at least taken out the armor save on the Prince and dropped the Dread to AV6 or 7. Considering the price of the Dread and Prince combined, it seems like a fair enough trade.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Benis on November 8, 2011, 02:40:18 PM
Given that most monstrous creatures still have an impressive toughness, you actually have to make a wound and the likelihood of instant death to the swarms I would avoid them unless absolutely necessary. Many monstrous creatures also have an invulnerable save so in those cases the reward is even lower. Given the unhealthy amount of medium strength shots that Necrons out to be able to pump out monstrous creatures in the 3+ T6 area ought to be easy to whittle down without sacrificing scarabs for such targets.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: sephiroa on November 8, 2011, 02:47:55 PM
Given that most monstrous creatures still have an impressive toughness, you actually have to make a wound and the likelihood of instant death to the swarms I would avoid them unless absolutely necessary. Many monstrous creatures also have an invulnerable save so in those cases the reward is even lower. Given the unhealthy amount of medium strength shots that Necrons out to be able to pump out monstrous creatures in the 3+ T6 area ought to be easy to whittle down without sacrificing scarabs for such targets.

my thoughts exactly,, 4 or 5 to hit, and 6 to wound, even with 50 attacks on 1 monstrous creature, you could have the chance in 1 missed save, and after that most of the time they have inv save,
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 8, 2011, 03:14:11 PM
I'd rather make the MC take that invulnerable save that is probably worse then their armor save any day. Sure they aren't the best target but combine that with holding them up for a turn to reposition the rest of your army for better firing lines or avoid assault, I don't see it as the worst possible idea. Like I said, in my actual experience against a Chaos Dread and a Demon Prince with 4 or 5 attacks each (in the same combat) I almost accomplished my goal. I realized from the beginning it would be better to aim for one or the other but it was my first game and I wanted to push the limits as far as I could.

Against say Tyranids, where there are no tanks to munch on, Warriors sound like a good target. They each got a ton of wounds and knocking out their armor save (even if it isn't the greatest) could be helpful in the long run. It's tough to want to get in close combat when you don't have an armor save to hide behind.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: headfirst on November 9, 2011, 01:07:53 AM
Scarabs are AMAZING now, must run more of them! Seriously, the extra attack is brutal, and Entropic Strike is just amazing. They do tend to be slightly slower now, but man, they tear through tanks like paper and the dice against units is staggering.

As for the destroyers, they got nerfed from all-round killer to Anti-Marine Specialist. I wish they'd kept the S6, it gave them a decent effect against light armour with the 3 shots. As it is, I feel the dissonance between the destroyer and heavy destroyer guns makes for worse mixed units than the old ones would have been.

As for the Tomb Blades, I'm still not sure... I haven't used them yet. 'twin-linked' and 'tesla' are very good friends though. They do seem very reasonable for their points cost, their profile is that of a warrior, and it's a pretty hefty upgrade. They still don't seem to DO much of anything, except be a fast midrange annoyance. Nebuloscopes and particle beamers might work... it's odd they have so many upgrades for the unit, not like necrons at all.

Wraiths are much better suited as Canoptek flavour-wise, can't wait for the models. The extra wound is more functional than RP for them, and whip coils are a necessity in my eyes. Transdimensional beamers are useless on them; the idea of wraiths stopping is wrong. Particle casters I would take if my army list is a couple of points under the value of the game. By no means essential, but a nice addition. I don't believe they provide +1A, the ccw all units are assumed to have is if they are in lieu of anything else i.e. they don't get penalised fro not having a weapon.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: GaleRazorwind on November 9, 2011, 04:12:16 AM
When it comes to Tyranid MC's, the only one of us who actually has an invuln is the Swarmlord (and only in CC), so Entropic Strike would be devastating to pretty much any of our MC's. Our most commonly fielded MCs are usually too big to get cover barring an excellent cover phalanx, so at best we are getting FNP from Catalyst after an Entropic Strike.

Of course, I think the Parasite of Mortrex is about to become a lot more popular and useful as the anti-scarab unit. Muahahaha... 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 3's, wounding on 2+ with S6 and Rending, and for every base that dies to him, I spawn D6 Ripper Swarms on your roll of a 4+. I find the whole idea to be extremely hilarious, since now I'M the one surrounding YOU with swarms, and our many little tiny critters are fighting each other in glorious one-on-one combat (lol picturing Rippers and Scarabs wearing gladiator helmets and wielding sword and shields fighting each other >^_^<).
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: syth773 on November 9, 2011, 06:22:07 AM
ok, did a few test runs on destroyers.  They are definitely anti-Meq now, the most painful thing for them is their range now though, it feels so short.  I want to keep them behind most of my army and preferably in cover as a couple of krak missles will easily decimate a squad, negating RP rolls.  better AP in exchange for less shots, lower strength and shorter range made them much more niche.  still, with the number of MEQ armies around they are neccessary.  A squad of 4 or 5 is pretty important against any marine army, and if you get to unload on a footslogging terminator squad you will shred them.

I am definitely loving Scarabs though, my opponent didn't want to move his rhinos near my army because I had a swarm of 10 hiddin in some woods nearby lol, he eventually has a squad charge at them to tie them down so that they wouldn't devour his vehicles.  Once your opponent knows what they can do they will definitely either direct some fire/forces to tie them down or take them out or they will make their vehicles take a longer path to reach you to avoid them.  they are perfect for stopping a blood angle land raider/rhino rush.

Havn't tried wraiths yet, they really do get pretty expensive with lash whips, so I couldn't fit them into my test army.  I just feel that if I need close combat bruisers the spyders are a better buy, 5 more points than a lashwhip wraith, they are much beefier and you get at least 1 free scarab from each of them which is essentially a discount in points.  heck, if you somehow keep a scarab swarm nearby for 3 turns they can pay off their points cost just by making one each turn.  main downside for the spyders is they are slower and lack an inv save.

If someone does a solid test with wraiths let me know, I can see their  potential, it's just the fact that lash whips are pretty much mandatory for them to be effective hurts quite a bit.  Now, on the other hand if the enemy has come to grips with, say a squad of your lychguard you could send some wraiths over to join in just to slow down the enemy troops so your lychguard attack first, that could definitely be a huge boost in close combat.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: croggy on November 9, 2011, 07:23:29 AM
how will kraks negate RP roles?

also i agree with the spiders but thats a seperate issue
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: syth773 on November 9, 2011, 08:15:12 AM
I meant that with enough kraks the enemy could wipe a small destroyer squad out in one turn (from marines, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, and all you get is a cover save if you're lucky) and since nearby models don't help any longer it's easier to wipe smaller units.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: croggy on November 9, 2011, 09:01:11 AM
ah yes i get ya now well any amount of concentrated fire would do the same - couple of vendettes - couple of plasma squads

basically anything that murders mech would muder these guys also
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on November 9, 2011, 09:43:47 AM
I forget if I mentioned it but I did have a real world test of Wraiths with Whip Coils. A squad of 3 was jumping around the board and managed a multi assault with a Slaanesh Demon Prince and a close combat Chaos Dread. Also my C'tan Shard was able to jump into this combat and they managed 3 wounds on the Prince and Destroyed the AV10 Dread (Scarabs hit him on first turn). Following Turn the other Slaanesh Demon Prince decided to assault into the combat. Needless to say the first Prince died to the C'tan, and the second Prince lost half it's wounds to the Wraiths. Finally on the 3rd round of combat the last Prince was munched and I only lost 1 wound on the Wraiths.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 9, 2011, 06:05:52 PM
I expect wraiths are still going to be quite nice so long as you don't abuse them. When you need to do surgery, use a scalpel; when you need to pulp something, grab a hammer.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Packetmaster on November 9, 2011, 06:37:50 PM
I pick in the new dew and find that contrary to the elite section. Mostly everything is darn cheap. It good because there so much stuff to put in the army. That a good point for the fast attack section.

Personnaly I was really impress with the Tomb Blades and the scarabs. Nebuloscope and particule beamer in a unit of five tomb blades whould be amazing. Jet bike move and shooting small blast at unit than turbo boost to contest objective. They whould hug cover but with the jet bike rule that does slow them. That awesome, 5 blast every turn on the move.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: syth773 on November 10, 2011, 12:56:27 AM
I pick in the new dew and find that contrary to the elite section. Mostly everything is darn cheap. It good because there so much stuff to put in the army. That a good point for the fast attack section.

Personnaly I was really impress with the Tomb Blades and the scarabs. Nebuloscope and particule whip in a unit of five tomb blades whould be amazing. Jet bike move and shooting small blast at unit than turbo boost to contest objective. They whould hug cover but with the jet bike rule that does slow them. That awesome, 5 blast every turn on the move.

I think you mean particle beamer  ;D
I agree they are a pretty good pick for their points, low initiative doesnt hurt much when you're zooming around the battlefield (come to think of it I think they are the only jetbikes necrons have).  I'm trying to judge if it is worth getting particle beamers (and maybe nebuloscope).  You can purchase 7 regular tomb blades for the same cost as 4 with the 2 upgrades.  Twinlinked tesla carbines are unlikely to miss, but they are also not the most effective weapons against much of anything (lack AP against MEQ troops, not quite enough strength (and lack of AP) to threaten vehicles, and not enough shots to do significant damage to swarms.
beamers are probably worth it, 5 points for 1 less inch scatter is questionable as to how worth it that is.

If anything they can be decent flying tarpits, T5 will allow them to tie up a normal squad quite nicely for a time.  wont be hard for them to reach just about anything with turboboost speed and cover save.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: bomatic3 on November 10, 2011, 01:51:08 PM
2 sets of 2 or 3 heavies. so good at trashing transports turn 1-2. making sure my enemy has to slogg it into my relentless warroirs pumping out death at everyturn.

and one squad of wraiths to assist my 2- ds flayed ones, and lychgaurd zooming in for more help. shoudl be really good with coils.

the scarabs are very tempting, but i thinnk it is going to play different than it seems. i think people are overly optomistic about the powers. so once we play a few games i will judge them again, but i am sceptical. i just think once the enemy has played them a few times, they will quickly get delt with and not me a factor, and because of the amount of s6 in the meta, they will be instant death magnets.

tomb blades seems ok, but they are a low point option. in Dark eldar i had trouble getting my bikes to do good wokr, i assume this will be the same, but games will decide what is effective vs what i can fit in.


Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: sephiroa on November 10, 2011, 05:35:42 PM
tried the scarabs today, they munched a landraider :D turn 2,
scarabs are great, i love them :D

as for the wraiths, they killed a devastator squad turn 2 and managed to hold on 2 combat turns(his turn, mine turn) against 8 assault terminators and then got killed (they took 3 termi's)
the wraiths,, well with some decent rolls (and whip coils) you can really give some punch to some squads.

destroyers: got killed turn 1 (darn that stupid razorback and his search lights)
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Partninja on November 13, 2011, 06:43:39 PM
At some point during my testing, I am going to run a squad of destroyers with three Heavy. Using Nemesor Zahn, giving them tank hunters will be QUITE enjoyable.

I have tried Wraiths and find a squad of 5 with coils too expensive for what they do. Maybe I just have bad luck with rends. For the points, I could add more shooting elements that would reliably do more damage for me.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NecronCell2131 on November 28, 2011, 07:02:44 PM
 Tried Destroyers, Scarabs and Wraiths. Havent tried flayed ones or bikes yet.

 Destroyers basic squad of 5 against black templars. Killed marines in the open and forced those in cover to take 4+ saves all in all didnt make back their points but did well enough.

 Scarabs after last edition of never taking them im going to fit in a squad of 8-10 every game i can. These guys Have eaten two landraiders, dreadnaught, hellhound, and tied up incubi and marines for 2-3 turns.

 I dont know if i can do this but ive been using the monolith to warp both these guys and wraiths since it says any non vehicle necron unit and not units with necron name or a special rule. Until the Faq wont know for sure.

 Wraiths with 3 or 4 coil whips with a destroyer lord in the unit is great against marine squads or any non-terminator unit. Using the monolith to flit these guy around again going on the basis that the wording means any unit in the necron codex that is not a vehicle.

 Scarabs are win usually making back there points, destroyers are more situational, wraiths are what id rather spend 200 points on.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on November 28, 2011, 07:05:13 PM
You can teleport wraiths and scarabs via the monolith but they count as disembarking from a moving, non-open-topped vehicle. Meaning they pop out and then sit still (or run!) and can't charge. Not that great for assault specialists that want to get stuck in. THe monolith is mostly useful for shooting units and not so hot for those dependent on close combat.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on November 28, 2011, 07:08:50 PM
At some point during my testing, I am going to run a squad of destroyers with three Heavy. Using Nemesor Zahn, giving them tank hunters will be QUITE enjoyable.

Did this recently and it was GOLD. Zahndrekh is quickly becoming my standard HQ choice for all lists these days.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: WilliamT on November 29, 2011, 11:00:00 AM
Just finished reading the codex.  Thought on Fast Attack: Wraiths!!

1) Wraiths look good on paper: Rending & very good invulnerable save,  Buy the coils

2) Scarabs: use them for their psychological effects on MEQ players
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on December 5, 2011, 07:09:49 PM
Had a test game with a larger squad of Wraiths (5 all with whip coils) and attached Destroyer Lord (with Mindshackle Scarabs, Warscythe, and Weave). I have to say this squad was too powerful. The problem was it would wipe out the squad it assaulted then immediately got shot to pieces by the enemy. (specifically vindicators and defiler) First turn I assaulted and wiped out a Slaanesh winged Demon Prince (before it could even start beating it's own face in because of Mindshackle Scarabs), then lost 3 models from instant death. The next turn Assaulted the 2nd Slaanesh winged Demon Prince and even with only 2 Wraiths and a Destroyer Lord wiped it out before Mindshackle Scarabs could take effect. Because my Wraiths were now in the heart of the enemy army, he wasn't able to shoot the large blast weapons at me (due to hitting friendly models) so shot with whatever close range weapons were near (Killing another Wraith...) and assaulted with the Defiler. Due to my poor rolls the Destroyer Lord wasn't able to blow up the defiler and died from it's DCCW, the last Wraith falling to No Retreat!...

I'm adamant that if I wasn't rolling so many 1's for 3+ invulernable saves, the Wraiths could have kept sweeping the board after dealing with the 3 main close combat threats. Just for a comparison we decided to see if the Wraith wing could wipe out 8 Berserkers in one round of combat, which they did.

At this moment I'm thinking a squad of 4 Wraiths with Whip Coils attached to a Destroyer Lord is a good number, as long as you can keep them away from shooting. There should be enough damage output to kill most of the enemy and still get stuck in combat for the enemy's turn, then finish the squad off so you can assault again in your following turn. Without the Destroyer Lord, 5 Wraiths with Whip Coils should be sufficient to get the job done.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Gutstikk on December 5, 2011, 09:07:57 PM
That's good to know. I'm thinking of doing something similar because A) I have a destroyer lord B) it'll save the cost of a second command barge and C) Wraiths. The destroyer lord is nice because he can get to vehicles under his own power if needed as well, and can ride a night scythe for added hilarity.

How are the wraiths on their own? Not quite enough hitting power due to poor rends?
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on December 5, 2011, 09:26:16 PM
I originally ran a unit of 3 Wraiths with Whip Coils in my first two games as Necrons and they didn't quite seem to cut it. They wrecked a vehicle no problem but was stuck in a combat with Dire Avengers and a Farseer for about 4 or 5 assault phases. Even with support from a very large unit of Scarabs. Against Chaos they were supported by a C'tan and managed to multi assault a dreadnought and demon prince, destroying the Dreadnought and getting stuck in with the Prince, then got assaulted by the other Prince and ended up finishing them both off (I think, that was my first game ever a month ago).

Instant Death is a big worry for Wraiths, especially if you end up rolling a lot of 1's and 2's for their save...At least they get a pretty darn good one though. New Precision dice are on my Christmas list...
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on December 5, 2011, 09:42:53 PM
I've found 4 Wraiths to be a bit of a magic number, as long as you don't waste them (put them needlessly into rapid fire range or get tied up fighting chaff) they have been very solid and consistent for me.

Personally I've stopped putting the Destroyer Lord with them because he only seems to slow them down at key moments (assaulting into cover) but I would gladly fly my Destroyer Lord alongside Wraiths in a unit of Praetorians to give the Prets res orb support when needed and occasionally jump out to join the Wraiths in a combat.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on December 5, 2011, 09:55:37 PM
I've found 4 Wraiths to be a bit of a magic number, as long as you don't waste them (put them needlessly into rapid fire range or get tied up fighting chaff) they have been very solid and consistent for me.

Personally I've stopped putting the Destroyer Lord with them because he only seems to slow them down at key moments (assaulting into cover) but I would gladly fly my Destroyer Lord alongside Wraiths in a unit of Praetorians to give the Prets res orb support when needed and occasionally jump out to join the Wraiths in a combat.

You can always detach the Destroyer Lord in the movement phase and Assault him separately into the unit in cover. He'll still go at I1 but the Wraiths would still get their normal initiative. As long as you get stuck in combat and don't have him by himself during the opponent's shooting phase, it doesn't matter if he's attached to the Wraiths on the turn you want to assault.

For the similar price of a Wraith or Praetorian, I don't quite see why you would want the Praetorian. Sure it has a gun but a lot less attacks, both are fearless, Wraiths have more wounds and an invulnerable save, and better strength. Downside is vulnerability to instant death though but you would lose the same number of Praetorian models to that one power fist wound anyway. Reanimation Protocols for the Praetorians is a nice little bonus but I prefer not to rely on it.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Azonalanthious on December 5, 2011, 11:48:25 PM
I really don't think you need whipcoils on every wraith, 2-3 per squad seems like it should be more then enough in almost any case.  Its not like you need to stop every single attack in order to be sure you get to strike -- at say WS4, S4, it takes 24 attack on average to kill a single one after all.  You've got some breathing space to let a few attacks through without worrying all THAT much, and given the large bases, with even some fairly minimal attention to position you should be able to hit more then one enemy base with some/all of your whipcoil models.

Beyond that, while its not something I would use in a friendly game, in a tournament setting that frees you up to pick up a the other two war gear options and leave one wraith naked, gives you 4 wound allocation points for the always popular/cheesy wound allocation tricks.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on December 6, 2011, 01:01:51 AM
Kaiju you do realize what it means to be Fearless while having Reanimation Protocols right ;). Matt Ward was clearly so afraid of how broken that combo is he made sure it only exists on a single unit in the codex, that doesn't have an invulnerable save, and that can only have a Res Orb added (without slowing the unit down) by a character that has no invulnerable save himself. He also made darn sure Wraiths did not gain that combo...

Not saying everyone needs to start using Praetorians all of a sudden, just that I see very nice benefits to them. I think the right way for 90% of armies to run them, if they do, is going to be with Caster and Void Blade, that way they become as good against vehicles as Scarabs but while staying useful versus infantry and rock hard to actually kill, as compared to how easy Scarabs crumble away once they've done one action.

As for whip coils on Wraiths, I agree you don't necessarily need them on each Wraith, but I find it's still often useful as I tend to use my Wraiths as a support unit, so I will occasionally double charge into a combat where more of my units are already tied up; in these cases I want to have as much debuffing going on as possible. But if you're just taking a small squad of three or four, you could certainly go for wound allocation shenanigans.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: prot on December 6, 2011, 08:45:36 AM
I don't know. At 1500 I've been fantastically disappointed in Praetorians.

At first I thought 'Great! Finally an answer to the deathstar.'

But they're so expensive, and initiative 2 is a killer. This is what makes Wraiths work. They're the only unit in the entire codex (aside from a C'tan I4) that has a chance of going first. That sucks. It's a huge hole to be in. It would be different if they were all carrying the equivalent of fists.

On the Fearless thing: In both my games I took so many wounds, that even though I didn't run, the 'extra wounds' caused the rest of the squad to die anyway. At one attack each (two rushing in) it's just not enough to offset the cost.

The Covenent Rod, or so I thought, would be their saving grace. But it wasn't... the problem is it IS great for shooting Terminator style Deathstars, but you often lose assault range as a result.

The Particle caster and Void Blade seems ok, but rending blows. The Entropic strike in CC is best for vehicles.... I don't like the idea of a non-power weapon, non-invulnerable save squad going against an uber character and hoping to get an Entropic Wound on him/it/her.

I am so frustrated with Praetorians, I am willing to rip the Covenent arms off and try something else. I don't know what, but at 200 points for 5, it's REALLY hard to make them work better than say.... Flayed Ones or Scarabs.

The thought of using them against vehicles is a neat idea, until you realize that scarabs do it better, faster, and cheaper.

But I haven't honestly tried Praetorians with Particle Casters and Void Blades. I'd love to hear from those that have. My big question would be, can 5 of them stand up to a deathstar? If not, I won't take them. I have enough mediocre close combat junk in my army as it is.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: NightMoor on December 6, 2011, 09:13:14 AM
Prot, I will let you know how my trials and tribulations with Void Blade Praetorians go, I am converting up 10 in the next few weeks (have to wait for parts to arrive via eBay) from Warrior bodies and Praetorians limbs/weapons/heads. In my proxy games however a unit of 10 with Destroyer Lord (res orb) have been very solid as general threats. Then again I play in a very competitive environment where mechanized marine spam (razorbacks, predators, etc.) is highly prevalent so the Entropic Strike is extremely useful.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: Kaiju Senso on December 6, 2011, 09:48:39 AM
I don't know. At 1500 I've been fantastically disappointed in Praetorians.

At first I thought 'Great! Finally an answer to the deathstar.'

But they're so expensive, and initiative 2 is a killer. This is what makes Wraiths work. They're the only unit in the entire codex (aside from a C'tan I4) that has a chance of going first. That sucks. It's a huge hole to be in. It would be different if they were all carrying the equivalent of fists.

On the Fearless thing: In both my games I took so many wounds, that even though I didn't run, the 'extra wounds' caused the rest of the squad to die anyway. At one attack each (two rushing in) it's just not enough to offset the cost.

This is exactly why I don't see Reanimation Protocols all that useful for Praetorians. If you decided to pay an obscene amount of points for a larger squad then yes it would be a lot more helpful. The problem is though that with a squad of about 5, you risk losing the entire squad before you even get a chance to roll for RP. Anyway this is all elites discussion so back to Wraiths!

I definitely want all Whip Coils on my Wraiths. I want to make sure every single attack (or as many as possible if up against a very large squad) gets to the enemy first at all times during the game. For example if one Wraith only has one wound remaining and the enemy gets one cheap shot in that I fail to save, you just lost 4 attacks and for the size of the squad, that dramatically reduces your close combat punch. Think of it as an insurance policy, like the Res Orb, and it isn't all that expensive.

Now I have to decide if I want two squads of Wraiths plus Scarabs or two squads of Scarabs plus Wraiths.
Title: Re: New Necron Codex - Fast Attack Discussion
Post by: High Grandmaster smithmyster666 of the Grey Knights on December 6, 2011, 10:21:52 AM
i have to say, when i saw the new rules for scarabs, i wished i hadnt used all mine for conversions (with destroyers being king last codex) id have 10 bases of the blighters otherwise :/ but never mind

for fast attack ive been rolling 1 5 man squad of destroyers, 1 3 man squad of heavy destroyers, and a squad of 2 of each. and for the love of raptorjesus do they do some killing, every crowe purifier wing is going to hate these bad boys, especially when you cut down half a squad per turn :)