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Author Topic: Deathstrike  (Read 7057 times)

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Offline Dangerousdave0042

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Re: Deathstrike
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2014, 11:21:16 AM »
1, Where does not being able to direct fire the weapon say that you don't use your ballistic skill? Doesn't that just mean you cant fire it in the 0-12" Range?

In the BRB in the special rules about barrage it talks about direct and indirect fire. With normal barrage you can deduct your BS if you are not under your minimum range AND can see the target. You can fire under the minimum range, but only indirectly.

2.And 3. Power of the machine spirit says exactly That. "You may Fire a weapon That "WOULDNT NORMALY BE ABLE TO FIRE" ( See I used caps this time instead of italics to get my point across)
This weapon under "Normal circumstances" Would not be able to fire first turn or if it moves,
You however have a guy who you can also buy that can Bestow it with a USR that lets you do this.
It's very very obvious, and not even a stretch or anything, Vehicles rules say "It can not", Special mechanic guy comes along and says "Yes You can Cause Im good with machines like that"

The relevant part of the rule is

"In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted."

Just remember that normal rules are trumped by special rules. Special rules are trumped by codex rules. The codex gives two quite specific rules about the weapon that POTMS doesn't affect. This is not "normal permission". This is codex specific permission on when you may fire the weapon. Additionally, as stated above, you cannot fire the weapon at your full BS as you must fire it indirectly.

For example take this example:

You move the Deathstrike in 6 inches from reserve. The rule book states you can fire one weapon at your fulls BS and snap fire every other weapon. However, the codex forbids you from firing as you have moved. You now put POTMS onto the Deathstrike. You can now fire two weapons at your full BS (one at  different target), but the codex still FORBIDS you from firing the weapon as you have moved and you can't use POTMS to fire the weapon as you can't fire it at your full BS.
Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should.

Offline Mr Draken

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Re: Deathstrike
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2014, 11:35:12 AM »

Just remember that normal rules are trumped by special rules. Special rules are trumped by codex rules. The codex gives two quite specific rules about the weapon that POTMS doesn't affect. This is not "normal permission". This is codex specific permission on when you may fire the weapon. Additionally, as stated above, you cannot fire the weapon at your full BS as you must fire it indirectly.

For example take this example:

You move the Deathstrike in 6 inches from reserve. The rule book states you can fire one weapon at your fulls BS and snap fire every other weapon. However, the codex forbids you from firing as you have moved. You now put POTMS onto the Deathstrike. You can now fire two weapons at your full BS (one at  different target), but the codex still FORBIDS you from firing the weapon as you have moved and you can't use POTMS to fire the weapon as you can't fire it at your full BS.

Sorry, but your bypassing things just to make yourself right. Rule states it cannot fire if it moves or in turn one. Those are the restrictions when you are not permitted to fire.... the two restrictions for POTMS are either flat out, or popped smoke. neither of those occured, Thus you may fire an extra weapon, which, as you get to choose, can be the missile. You would roll with usual modifiers, and if you get lucky, fire it.

No where in the rules for deathstrike does it say that POTMS does not effect it. In fact, considering your also trying to use indirect fire as a reason, I can move and POTMS something else that fires indirectly..... why not in this case? Yes, your given 2 specifics that would NORMALLY not allow it to fire.... but neither of which match up with the two specifics that PREVENT POTMS from taking effect.

It can fire, its cheesy, its annoying, but IT CAN FIRE RULES AS WRITTEN!  The fact that so much of a twisted argument is needed to even try to prove it otherwise shows that 1. it needs to be FAQ'd for people who will go so far as to argue it out like this, and 2. Your grasping at straws to try and prove the point, and ignoring the facts and wording of said rules.

In short, You can fire because : while you have reasons the deathstrike is not normally permitted to fire (moving, first turn) they do not match up with the 2 reasons given in the POTMS rule that prevent it from taking effect (flat out, popped smoke) thus, the rule takes effect, and allows you to roll to fire the missile.
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Offline Dangerousdave0042

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Re: Deathstrike
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2014, 02:13:38 PM »
In my view it is the people who are arguing you can do this who are completely twisting the argument and conveniently twisting rules to suit their opinion as it suits them.

I can't see any logic in POTMS allowing you to fire the weapon after moving or on the first turn when the codex expressly forbids it. ie it is not "normal restrictions" that are preventing you from firing the missile. It is codex specific restrictions and codex specific  rules over ride special rules. It just so happens that in this case you don't like the codex rules as they are restrictive, whereas normally the codex rules boost your units, in this case they are restricting it.

Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Deathstrike
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2014, 06:05:04 PM »
It's never even made it's points back, and one game it actually scattered so far it only killed guardsman Marbo (RIP, Marbo)

Yet that's the personal touch the Guard is well known for. The giving of an ICBM individually targeted by those that care.

Considering modeling a Guardsman mounted on the missile itself so after launch he can do the Major "King" Kong ride along prior to detonation.
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Offline Mr Draken

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Re: Deathstrike
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2014, 12:06:35 AM »
In my view it is the people who are arguing you can do this who are completely twisting the argument and conveniently twisting rules to suit their opinion as it suits them.

I can't see any logic in POTMS allowing you to fire the weapon after moving or on the first turn when the codex expressly forbids it. ie it is not "normal restrictions" that are preventing you from firing the missile. It is codex specific restrictions and codex specific  rules over ride special rules. It just so happens that in this case you don't like the codex rules as they are restrictive, whereas normally the codex rules boost your units, in this case they are restricting it.

How about because POTMS is a universal special rule, it, like other USRs effect and change how many things in codexs play, especially when its given to a squad or unit by another. (like orders for example)
There is an order that allows you to shoot and run, something that is usually not allowed (discounting eldar as they have a special rule around it)
Why is POTMS so different, for this specific model? Point me to one other example where a USR like POTMS does not take effect over a codex listed rule, (one that does not specifically state that the USRs dont effect it) and your reasoning is valid, otherwise its 100% bunk, and its only because you dislike the cheesyness of the combo.
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Offline Dangerousdave0042

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Re: Deathstrike
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2014, 11:07:24 PM »
Can you give me a well established and agreed example where a USR DOES over ride and invalidate a codex rule?

normal rules < USR < codex rules

I don't see how a USR can over ride and invalidate a codex rule as codex rules have precedence over USR.

For example no one would argue that Corbulo has the standard FnP roll as the codex rule for him over rides the standard USR and gives him a better FnP roll.

Co-incidentally, if you are right (and I don't agree with you), POTMS would have to over ride all three codex rules for the missile and it would auto launch on the first turn. You can't have it over-riding two codex rules and not the third!
Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should.

Offline Semaj__14

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Re: Deathstrike
« Reply #26 on: May 1, 2014, 02:02:06 PM »

Co-incidentally, if you are right (and I don't agree with you), POTMS would have to over ride all three codex rules for the missile and it would auto launch on the first turn. You can't have it over-riding two codex rules and not the third!

But It wouldnt, It just says you may fire
To fire the missile you have to roll to see if it launches, Potms would just allow you the chance to see if it launches. That Is its firing mechanism.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Deathstrike
« Reply #27 on: May 2, 2014, 10:31:38 PM »
The rules discussion has moved to the Rules board for easier access and as is good and proper.

Here's a music video to help the transition.

Kirby Krackle "Set Your Phasers To Sexy" from the album "Sounds Like You" out now.
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Offline D503

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Re: Deathstrike
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2014, 11:09:28 AM »
I have one.
height=450]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/Keithbudd/Redemptionists/3e9486be1fca77f1b308796cd15c772f.jpg[/img][/URL]

My goodness! That is a remarkably genious use of the rest of the bits that come in the kit!

Thanks :)

I saw a death strike fire on the table next to me yesterday.  Killed almost 2 full squads of marines and a dreadnought, and demolished the building they were hiding in too.  The rest of the marines died when the building collapsed.

Being able to twin-link your death strike missile like he did is not to be underestimated.  Also; he used an aegis line, bullgryns and camo netting to give 4 leman russ tanks and his deathstrike a 2+ cover save, ensuring it's survival.  Not a bad trick.

 


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