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The Armies of 40k => Space Marines => Topic started by: Wyddr on November 17, 2018, 10:16:46 PM
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Hello, my name is Wyddr, and I got beat in turn 1.
So, I'd been working on this Deathwatch army idea for a while. I like the idea of a hyper-elite army with major killing power, so I put together a 1000 point Battalion list that looked like this:
Watch Captain w/Thief of Secrets, Combi-plasma (Castellan of the Black Vault--boosting the combi plasma)
Chaplain w/Plasma Pistol
5 Intercessors w/1 Aggressor (Auto Bolt Rifles, 1 Aux. Grenade Launcher, Sgt w/Chainsword)
5-man Kill Team w/ Sgt (Chainsword, Stormbolter), 2x Chainsword/Stormbolter, 2x Frag Cannons
5-man Kill Team w/Sgt (Thunderhammer, Stormshield), Blackshield (Thunderhammer, Stormshield), 3x Shotgun/Chainsword
Venerable Dread w/Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher
Blackstar w/Twin Assault Cannons, Blackstar Missiles, Hurricane Bolter, Auspex Array
I know, I know--it's only 18 guys, a dread, and a flyer. 12 of those guys go *in* the Flyer. Now, if I can get the drop on the enemy, I can do a TON of damage with those guys--it's kinda gross, actually. I know that's a big if, but it's a risk I'm willing to take given the payoff.
Then I played the new orks. There were two problems I noted:
Tankbustas are NASTY
Look, they were always mean. Now, though, when they're using the Moar Dakka strategem, they're filthy. They hit my flyer as though it were standing still AND they got bonus dice for every hit. Also, since they were Bad Moons, they could freaking shoot a SECOND TIME if they wanted. There is no vehicle that can survive that amphetamine parrot. Throw in a Weirdboy to Da Jump their asses anywhere on the board they please, and they can (and will) kill any vehicle (or any two vehicles) on the board at any time.
Now, for a regular army this is a sustainable loss--the Guard always have a few more tanks lurking about, the Eldar have Magic Eldar Shenanigans, etc.--but elite Marines armies kinda need their rides to survive a journey downfield and now there's no way they can do it reliably. With the Beta Rules pushing arrivals from reserve to second turn, things are looking grim. Footslogging with Kill Teams is NOT a great idea.
Okay, so the obvious solution, then, is to alpha strike the damned Tankbustas--they're only boyz, right? This is what I tried in my game, natch, but my Blackstar choked on its shooting phase and the tankbustas lost only 3 dudes and then their 9 guys did a full 12 damaging hits to my flyer. Twelve.
Even presuming a better-than-average shooting phase, there's a new problem to consider:
The Grot Screen is BROKEN
Now, my opponent didn't even use this strategem, but the new Grot Screen strategem, if I'm understanding it correctly, is pretty Yhwh-condemneded devastating for any army hoping to get the jump on the orks before drowning beneath a mountain of dice.
For the cost of a Single CP any unit can use a unit of grots to give basically a Look Out, Sir roll to any unit close to them that is also closer to the shooting unit. And it's a *good* Look Out Sir roll, too.
So, for short money, you can spam the board with 90 ablative wounds that will completely prevent you from shooting up key ork shooting or support units until you chew through them. This, of course, means the orks have the initiative and there isn't much you can do about it--they will be the ones hitting you, not the other way around.
This is very bad for the Deathwatch. Very bad, arguably, for any small-model count army that needs its few elite units to have devastating effect before the enemy grinds them to death beneath mountains of attacks.
This will require new plans. Thing is, I'm not really sure what plans I could enact that would change things much.
Thoughts? Anybody tangled with a crazy grot screen before?
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I don't think the issue is with Orks, it's just that marines are not resilient in Warhammer 40k, so if you are taking marines, you need a lot of them, or they'll die very fast.
For orks with the Gretchen screen, you really need to kill the grots first, before shooting anything behind them. With them alive, shots into rear enemies is going to be unreliable, so if you don't have weight of fire, then it's going to be highly ineffective.
I will say, 18 models in 1000pts is always going to be a rough go. Especially, when 10 of them are just marines. In the game of armour modifiers, power armour means nothing. It's also hard, when you basically have to sit in your flier for a turn, and pray he can't kill your plane.
Orks are very good now. Dakka Dakka Dakkas, is a phenominal rule, and they don't care too much about shooting modifiers. (Orks always hitting on 6, is not too much worse than normall hitting on 5's, and getting extra shots on top of that!). Tankbustas are good at their job, but if their opponent has no vehicles, they loose a lot of their power. It all depends on what they're fighting. Rokkets, are fairly short ranged too, so it's possible to mitigate that as well.
I played agaisnt a buddies Death Skulls in a 1000pt game, and I had 30 grey hunters, 5 long fangs, and 5 tartaros Terminators, He tabled me in four turns. I just couldn't stand up to his shooting.
So, I'll need to adapt. He was also very surprised at how well his army did (it was both of our first times with our new armies).
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The scenario that you have outlined reminds me very much of when Gretchin used to be utilised by Ork generals, myself included, in second edition as a screen by taking advantage of the shoot the closest target rule. It can be difficult for elite armies with a low model count, such as Space Marines, to break through such screens. In the past, template weapons would have been your best option, but that's no longer the case.
My view is that the type of army that you want to put together isn't going to work against the type of Ork army that you faced during this game. The model count is too low and you're committed to one line of attack. I think that you need to be a bit more subtle. Are there any small units of Marines that you could take and send in via deep strike to perhaps gun down the Weirdboy or mow down the Tankburstas while you hold back and play it cagey before you then commit your attack? The trouble with that, of course, is that Space Marines aren't really that effective playing wait and see gun line style tactics, so it might not work. The only other option which springs to mind at the moment is a combination of deep strike units and lots of vehicles (e.g. a modified Rhino rush approach), whereby your opponent has too many targets to be able to cripple your attack in one turn with those Tankburstas.
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I don't think the issue is with Orks, it's just that marines are not resilient in Warhammer 40k, so if you are taking marines, you need a lot of them, or they'll die very fast.
For this specific game, I agree. Sadly, you *can't* really take a lot of them, or certainly not enough of them to survive Bad Moon ork shooting.
My initial plan was to go Primaris heavy, but then the offense was a little lacking and they couldn't hop any rides, so I decided to try this. With index ork shooting this was more viable--I could reliably take out a squad of Tankbustas with the plane and then reasonably expect to weather the shooting phase. With Grot Screens, this isn't actually possible anymore.
About the Grot screens--yeah, absolutely shoot the grots. But this is where the marines' old "quality over quantity" thing gets the shaft. I'm never going to have a lot of bullets to throw around--all those bullets will hit on 3s with re-rolls and wound on 2s with re-rolls, but I'll *always* have fewer bullets than the orks will have bodies. That pretty well sucks.
I will say, 18 models in 1000pts is always going to be a rough go. Especially, when 10 of them are just marines. In the game of armour modifiers, power armour means nothing. It's also hard, when you basically have to sit in your flier for a turn, and pray he can't kill your plane.
Oh yes, of course it is. The entire list is a gamble and I knew that going in. Thing is, it *used* to be a better gamble (a coin flip, say). The Flyer will *probably* die no matter what, but the issue is how much enemy shooting it will take before it drops. If it can soak *most* enemy firepower before dying, my guys climb out of the wreckage and beat face next turn. But now, with it getting easily aced with a single unit's shooting, the plan becomes totally ineffective.
Tankbustas are good at their job, but if their opponent has no vehicles, they loose a lot of their power. It all depends on what they're fighting. Rokkets, are fairly short ranged too, so it's possible to mitigate that as well.
Two problems with this assessment:
1) Yes, you can not take vehicles, but then the Deathwatch is either walking or teleporting in. Both are death sentences.
2) With a Weirdboy and Da Jump, those Rokkits can get in range of anything they want on turn 1 and there isn't a hell of a lot you can do about it. Suiciding a unit of Bad Moon tankbustas when they are more-or-less guaranteed to obliterate two tanks is 100% worth it.
In the past, template weapons would have been your best option, but that's no longer the case.
Honestly, this is the single worst thing about 8th Edition. The elimination of templates was a HUGE boost to horde armies of all stripes as it basically took away elite armies' best crowd control weapons. My Vindicators will be riding the shelf alongside my Basilisk and almost every single flamer for the foreseeable future.
Are there any small units of Marines that you could take and send in via deep strike to perhaps gun down the Weirdboy or mow down the Tankburstas while you hold back and play it cagey before you then commit your attack?
This isn't possible for a few reasons.
1) None of my units are cheap and, while I can deepstrike them, they can't arrive until turn 2 these days (assuming we're using Beta Rules, and honestly I really, really hope they don't adopt that rule) and they will almost certainly die right afterwards. That is an investment I can't reasonably afford to lose if I'm already outnumbered 3 to 1.
2) Both the Weirdboy and the Tankbustas are untargetable thanks to the Character rules (in the case of the Weirdboy) and the Grot Screen stratagem (in the case of both the Tankbustas and the Weirdboy). This is what I'm lamenting, because I could conceivably see a scenario in which I could drop a cheap unit somewhere (perhaps a suiciding captain in a jump pack) to cause mischief, but thanks to the 9" bubble rule, the Grot Screen, and the character rules, it just becomes *impossible* to do anything worthwhile.
The only other option which springs to mind at the moment is a combination of deep strike units and lots of vehicles (e.g. a modified Rhino rush approach), whereby your opponent has too many targets to be able to cripple your attack in one turn with those Tankburstas.
This becomes an expense issue, then. I can't reasonably afford to bring enough rhinos and kill teams to MSU the board (since each of those 5-man teams + Rhinos is in the neighborhood of 200 points) because rhinos now run double the points they once did. And it isn't as though Tankbustas are the *only* antitank he's bringing--he still has a line of artillery, each of which entirely capable of crippling a Rhino or two by themselves. And, again, thanks to the Grot Screen stratagem, there isn't any really viable way I can take out the artillery before they blow up my tanks.
This is really infuriating. I mean, I knew going in that this army would be a challenge, but looking at what the new Orks can do, I almost don't see a viable way to win *at all* which is actively depressing for an army ostensibly devoted to ork-slaying.
This game has convinced me (and I have been thinking this for a while) that *every marine* should get +1 Str, +1 T, +1 Wound, and +1 Attack tacked onto their profile to make them actually useful. They should have statlines and special rules roughly akin to Stormcast Eternals in Sigmar. Until they get that, they are never going to play as they should.
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I remember saying some time ago that the more tiers of rules that are added into the game the more problems start to be encountered. I've never liked this idea of stratagems. There's too much potential for abuse and it seems as though this is the underlying issue with the new Ork codex.
I think that your only hope is that they don't adopt the beta rules regarding deep striking. If you could still deep strike on turn one, I think that it would give you a chance. Otherwise, I hate to be defeatist, but I'm not sure what else you can do.
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Otherwise, I hate to be defeatist, but I'm not sure what else you can do.
Play Imperial Guard?
I'll discuss the beta rule with my gaming group. It's so damaging to the Deathwatch's ability to do, well, anything that I might see if we can relax that rule.
Hey, where do we send feedback to GW about said Beta Rules? I'd love to give them my take on the whole thing (and tell them Marines need to be substantially tougher).
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Hi all. I was the player on the other side of this battle and it was a surprise to me how the battle went too. I wasn't trying to make a WAAC list, I just wanted to try out the Orks with the new Codex before we started the next phase of our campaign. This is what I brought:
Klan Culture: Bad Moons
Warboss w/ Kustom Shoota, Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw Relic and Brutal but Kunnin' Warlord trait
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump and Fists of Gork (due to the Warphead Stratagem)
25 Shoota Boyz
25 Shoota Boyz
10 Grots
12 Tankbustas
4 Smash Guns
Dakkajet w/ 6 Supashootas.
I didn't realize how powerful Tankabustas w/ More Dakka would be, especially against a Flyer. Wddyr's right, it was nasty.
I agree about Grot Shields, I didn't realize how powerful it could be either, especially in a higher point game. The only things holding me back is buying more Grots and not wanting to be a jerk. It's also too good not to use in to protect a valuable unit, and cheaper than putting the unit I want protected in a Tellyporta. Tellyportin' would be better used for an assault unit.
I know this is a Space Marine thread, but I do feel that the Ork Codex definitely gives flexibility that wasn't there with only the index.
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I think the new orks, *barring* Grot Screen, seems fine.
The issue here is largely that hyper-elite armies are really skimming the edge of viability that they can be knocked out so fast. They need a serious boost to defense to work normally.
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I think the new orks, *barring* Grot Screen, seems fine.
The issue here is largely that hyper-elite armies are really skimming the edge of viability that they can be knocked out so fast. They need a serious boost to defense to work normally.
Super elite armies are terrible in 40k, unless you play Knights.
Custodes almost work, but they still need guard support.
That's just the state of the game. There is too many ap shots, and too much volume of shooting.
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Total side note:
In looking up stuff about the Grot Shields stratagem, it *seems* as if it's worded that it only protects one unit, one time. However, in having the rule read to me by Roboknee, it *sounded* as it it was activated once per turn and then for the whole phase anybody could take advantage of the shield assuming they were close enough and behind the grots.
Can anyone confirm which is true?
Super elite armies are terrible in 40k, unless you play Knights.
Custodes almost work, but they still need guard support.
That's just the state of the game. There is too many ap shots, and too much volume of shooting.
Yes, I know. That doesn't stop it from sucking.
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I don't have the ork codex, so I can't tell you. It depends on the wording of the strategem.
It just sort of sucks that power armour means nothing in 40k right now. Marines should be tough, but they die to a stiff breeze. I heard rumours they will be dropping points on marines in chapter approved, but that doesn't seem to be the solution I want.
Still, I'm starting an infantry heavy space Wolves army, I don't care for the consequences lol.
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Total side note:
In looking up stuff about the Grot Shields stratagem, it *seems* as if it's worded that it only protects one unit, one time. However, in having the rule read to me by Roboknee, it *sounded* as it it was activated once per turn and then for the whole phase anybody could take advantage of the shield assuming they were close enough and behind the grots.
Can anyone confirm which is true?
Taking a look at my dex, the stratagem is activated in response to an infantry unit being hit by a shooting weapon, and grants that non-grot unit the buff for the phase. So, you can't protect multiple units using this stratagem, since it can't be used more than once per phase. I think from the wording it seems like the unit you use it on can shield itself using any nearby grot unit between it and the enemy, so you could have 2 squads of grots both protect the same unit with this stratagem if they're close enough to it. But only one unit will ever benefit from protection.
I think the trick if the enemy has two units of Tankbustas is to bait out the stratagem if you can then use your firepower on the other Tankbustas unit.
As Look Out Sir abilities go, this is one of the best in the game, because grotz are so cheap. Most of these abilities only work with expensive elite bodyguards (Tyrant Guard, Deathshroud Terminators, etc) or the faction is carefully balanced around them (Saviour Protocols). Grotz though are so cheap it seems over the top. If it only worked on a 4+ or something it would be one thing, but that's not the case. It's quite strong and grotz are very cheap. I could see this being very useful for a big expensive unit of orkz, becoming almost immune to shooting. Might make it worth it to bust out a big unit of Nobz again.
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Thanks, Blazinghand. That is a little more manageable, though still extremely powerful.
@Killersquid Right there with you and my Deathwatch. Sigh.
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Sorry if I read it wrong, reading out loud from a book or text was never my strong suit.
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Sorry if I read it wrong, reading out loud from a book or text was never my strong suit.
It's okay. This is good. I am moderately backed away from the cliff's edge.
I don't think I can put up a decent fight at lower than 1500 points, but it *might* (might) be possible. Assuming those damned beta rules about delaying reserves don't go through.
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I don't think the Deepstrike beta rules will make a difference, as horde armies can just screen out where you can deepstrike anyway.
What's really annoying, is the change to the fly keyword, so you can't move over enemy units in the charge phase. That was one of the best ways to mitigate screens before the last FAQ.
Needless to say, we'll need to see what Chapter Approved brings, and I think we'll see points drops on marines, so at least you'll be able to fit a few more bodies in.
Personally, I'm a big fan of Primaris Marines. Pure Primaris Deathwatch is pretty scary. Agressors are just a fantastic unit, and Intersessors are IMO one of the best troops in the game. I think all Primaris infantry units are fantastic. The Repulsor and Redemptor Dread are too expensive, but if you move towards a Primaris-focused army, you'll probably get more milage out of it.
I'd be doing the same for my wolves, if it were not for wanting an Horus Heresy, and 40k army.
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All-primaris was my original thinking, yeah. You give up a lot of mobility, though, and range. And anti-tank (Hellblasters are good, but craaazy expensive).
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All-primaris was my original thinking, yeah. You give up a lot of mobility, though, and range. And anti-tank (Hellblasters are good, but craaazy expensive).
This is all true. But, sacrifices need to be made somewhere. Inceptors with plasma incinerators are a great source of fast anti-tank, especially if you get a captain near them.
But, anti-tank is atough one for deathwatch, as they are so close ranged focused on all the non-mkx marines.
I'd might try sticking in lascannon Razorbacks to sit back and shoot for anti-tank, as they are fairly cheap.
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I think I prefer bikes to Inceptors. You can still kit them with AT weapons, they're faster and cheaper, too.
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True. I just like the deepstrike and range. Plus, the number of shots they can get and how hard they hit is pretty nice.
Bikes need to get close, or don't have as many shots. Although, they are probably a bit quicker, and the twin-bolters are a nightmare at short range.
Edit: Removed posted stat line. --- GML
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True. I just like the deepstrike and 18" range. Plus, 6d3 shots at s8 -3 d2 each, is pretty nice.
Bikes need to get close, or don't have as many shots. Although, they are probably a bit quicker, and the twin-bolters are a nightmare at short range.
From a Deathwatch perspective, the bikes get access to Special Issue Ammunition and the Inceptors don't. That kinda pushes it over the edge for me.
Assuming either of those units will work well at all against a horde army, of which I am not currently convinced.
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True, but I was thinking of them for Anti-tank/heavy infantry, in which case you're probably not worried about what bolters they have. Anti-infantry is a lot easier to find. Aggressors for example, or a bunch of twin-assault cannon razorbacks, or just bolter fire.
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True, but I was thinking of them for Anti-tank/heavy infantry, in which case you're probably not worried about what bolters they have. Anti-infantry is a lot easier to find. Aggressors for example, or a bunch of twin-assault cannon razorbacks, or just bolter fire.
I can't remember the last time I had to shoot heavy infantry, but yeah.
Besides, Vengeance Bolts work just fine on most heavily armored, medium toughness targets.
The Inceptors *do* have weight of dice, though. The plasma option...eh, we're making a not-so-tough unit even *more* expensive? I'm dubious.
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They put out a lot of hurt though, you just gotta play them carefully, and choose the right targets. Deepstrike, and an 18" range helps with this. I've seen the plasma squad just obliterate tanks. 2d3 shots each can really add up. Especially with the deathwatch re-roll wounds, and a captain nearby.
If you can apply pressure with other units, and keep the inceptors back, they can live longer than one turn. If your whole army is in your deployment zone, and you drop the inceptors in, they will die the turn after they shoot.
The bolter versions I think are brilliant as well.
I think I'd always take these guys over hellblasters, just due to the mobility they have. They'll probably have the same number, or more shots than a hellblasters squad anyway.
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I think the main question there is how much pressure can be applied. Auto Bolt Rifles for sure, Aggressors. But you still need to get kinda close, and that means a turn of being shot up. That's rough.
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The Ork Errata has something to say about Grot shields.
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/warhammer_40000_orks_en.pdf (https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/warhammer_40000_orks_en.pdf)
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The Ork Errata has something to say about Grot shields.
http://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/warhammer_40000_orks_en.pdf (http://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/warhammer_40000_orks_en.pdf)
...and we're right back to Grots being permanent bullet sponges. FFS.
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Yep, it's going to be pretty obnoxious to fight. Just have to kill the Grots first, or hope your opponent fails their look out sir rolls.