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Author Topic: Drugs... the prescribed ones, not the other kind  (Read 4637 times)

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Offline Frescadude

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Re: Drugs... the prescribed ones, not the other kind
« Reply #60 on: March 2, 2006, 11:45:57 PM »
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I find it a sad state of affairs, but I can't see anything morally wrong with it.

How can you find it a sad state of affairs yet find nothing morally wrong with it?  How can something be a sad state of affairs if there is nothing morally wrong with it?  Even if morals have nothing to do with it, then something must be wrong with it for it to be a sad state of affairs.
Rock n' Roll vs. Classical music:  Mozart created a concierto that you had to play with your nose, Hendrix didn't have to play with his nose, but he did anyway.

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Offline Gotchaye

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Re: Drugs... the prescribed ones, not the other kind
« Reply #61 on: March 4, 2006, 03:34:29 PM »
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I asked more than once PROVE that the people are over charged for Public Health Care. I still fail to see how you can say that People that don't want to die have to pay for others to save their lives when it is in there power to do so.

With the definition of over-charged that I've been using, it's fairly self-evident.  I've defined it earlier as 'more than what they would willingly pay for it if they were not being coerced', or words to that effect.  I'm not entirely sure what your second sentence is saying.  If you're just saying that you don't see how I can say that there's no duty to help others, I'm going to have to again bring up the fact that you've yet to show why there is a duty.  Surely we shouldn't just assume a duty until someone proves otherwise.

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How can you find it a sad state of affairs yet find nothing morally wrong with it?  How can something be a sad state of affairs if there is nothing morally wrong with it?  Even if morals have nothing to do with it, then something must be wrong with it for it to be a sad state of affairs.

Because, to use a rather stale phrase, you're deriving an ought from an is (well, deriving an ought not from an is not).

I also think that it's a sad state of affairs that there are Holocaust deniers out there.  However, I don't think that we can say that said deniers are evil simply because they deny.  Neither do I think that we ought to lock them all up in jail.  I find it a sad state of affairs that there are those who take Creationism seriously, but I don't advocate punishment for those who do.

There are wrongs besides moral wrongs.  An answer on a test can be wrong without being morally wrong.  An opinion can be wrong without being morally wrong.  A plan of action that accidentally causes harm can be 'wrong' without being morally wrong (it could have been the most likely plan to succeed, after all).  Likewise, human mortality is 'wrong' without being morally wrong.

I have absolutely no problem agreeing with you that there's something wrong with the world when people are dying of disease for which a cure is available (heck, we don't even need to stipulate that a cure is available - disease is a bad thing by itself).  However, no one's to blame for this state of affairs, excepting perhaps God or Satan or another supernatural being of your choice, and I use 'wrong' in a purely subjective sense.

I still maintain that the fact that I can help does not mean that I am obligated to help, and I'll again point out that it has yet to be shown that I am.  Again, I have absolutely no problem with you saying that there ought to be a law forcing me to help, but I would ask that you avoid hypocrisy and admit that you're essentially just forcing people to work towards your completely unfounded conception of a better world.  I'll follow the law if it's passed, of course (as I generally give aid anyway), but I'd still prefer it remain nonobligatory.

Offline Frescadude

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Re: Drugs... the prescribed ones, not the other kind
« Reply #62 on: March 4, 2006, 08:58:47 PM »
Gotchaye, I can imagine you not stopping a mugging because the victim couldn't explain to you why you should.  Explain to me how that would be different than this.
Rock n' Roll vs. Classical music:  Mozart created a concierto that you had to play with your nose, Hendrix didn't have to play with his nose, but he did anyway.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will be at peace- Jimi Hendrix

The lemonade was in fact laced with cyanide and happiness. And by happiness I mean more cyanide.
WTF Would Jesus Do?

Offline Captain Hajime

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Re: Drugs... the prescribed ones, not the other kind
« Reply #63 on: March 5, 2006, 12:20:15 AM »
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I asked more than once PROVE that the people are over charged for Public Health Care. I still fail to see how you can say that People that don't want to die have to pay for others to save their lives when it is in there power to do so.

With the definition of over-charged that I've been using, it's fairly self-evident.  I've defined it earlier as 'more than what they would willingly pay for it if they were not being coerced', or words to that effect.  I'm not entirely sure what your second sentence is saying.  If you're just saying that you don't see how I can say that there's no duty to help others, I'm going to have to again bring up the fact that you've yet to show why there is a duty.  Surely we shouldn't just assume a duty until someone proves otherwise.

Wait being a good human being isn't a good enough reason to have that duty, nor is well I want them to help if it was me according to you. These are the primary reason why if I was given a chance i would do my best to help a sick or injuried person. You seem to keep asking for proof and never providing any. I have no problem paying for Public Health Care why wouldn't I pay for something in nice small amounts rather then getting stuck with a Huge Bill that I have to go into debt to pay and that could quite possible ruin my life.

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How can you find it a sad state of affairs yet find nothing morally wrong with it?  How can something be a sad state of affairs if there is nothing morally wrong with it?  Even if morals have nothing to do with it, then something must be wrong with it for it to be a sad state of affairs.

Because, to use a rather stale phrase, you're deriving an ought from an is (well, deriving an ought not from an is not).

I also think that it's a sad state of affairs that there are Holocaust deniers out there.  However, I don't think that we can say that said deniers are evil simply because they deny.  Neither do I think that we ought to lock them all up in jail.  I find it a sad state of affairs that there are those who take Creationism seriously, but I don't advocate punishment for those who do.

There are wrongs besides moral wrongs.  An answer on a test can be wrong without being morally wrong.  An opinion can be wrong without being morally wrong.  A plan of action that accidentally causes harm can be 'wrong' without being morally wrong (it could have been the most likely plan to succeed, after all).  Likewise, human mortality is 'wrong' without being morally wrong.

I have absolutely no problem agreeing with you that there's something wrong with the world when people are dying of disease for which a cure is available (heck, we don't even need to stipulate that a cure is available - disease is a bad thing by itself).  However, no one's to blame for this state of affairs, excepting perhaps God or Satan or another supernatural being of your choice, and I use 'wrong' in a purely subjective sense.

I still maintain that the fact that I can help does not mean that I am obligated to help, and I'll again point out that it has yet to be shown that I am.  Again, I have absolutely no problem with you saying that there ought to be a law forcing me to help, but I would ask that you avoid hypocrisy and admit that you're essentially just forcing people to work towards your completely unfounded conception of a better world.  I'll follow the law if it's passed, of course (as I generally give aid anyway), but I'd still prefer it remain nonobligatory.
[/quote]

The more you talk about it the more I convinced that you are not really interested in doing much of anything.
"Men from different wordls, with different views, bound together by loyality to the Emperor. This is what we have become." Captain Hajime
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Offline Gotchaye

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Re: Drugs... the prescribed ones, not the other kind
« Reply #64 on: March 5, 2006, 04:30:04 AM »
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Gotchaye, I can imagine you not stopping a mugging because the victim couldn't explain to you why you should.  Explain to me how that would be different than this.

Of course I would stop a mugging - when have I ever given the impression that I wouldn't?  You'll note that I've made it a point to illustrate the differences between my view and a view that holds that we should not help.  However, if someone didn't want to stop a mugging, then they're perfectly within their rights to withhold aid.  And yeah, the reason why they would be within their rights to do so is that the victim (or anyone) couldn't give a reason why he should.

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Wait being a good human being isn't a good enough reason to have that duty, nor is well I want them to help if it was me according to you. These are the primary reason why if I was given a chance i would do my best to help a sick or injuried person. You seem to keep asking for proof and never providing any. I have no problem paying for Public Health Care why wouldn't I pay for something in nice small amounts rather then getting stuck with a Huge Bill that I have to go into debt to pay and that could quite possible ruin my life.

Close, but I think you're misunderstanding some things.  First, yeah, being a good human being isn't a good enough reason to have that duty.  If you'd like to argue that being a good human being is a good enough reason, then go ahead and argue it.  All I've seen so far is reasoning along the lines of 'because I value certain things, everyone ought to conform to my wishes and act exactly as I would have them act'.

Second, while I would say that 'wanting someone else to help if you were in their place' is not a good enough reason to have the duty, it's close to being a good enough reason.  You have a duty to aid if, and only if, you would claim a right to be aided if it were you.  If, however, you would not try to claim a right, then no one can force the duty upon you.  Of course I would want someone to help me if I were being mugged, but I would understand if someone decided not to.  I would probably bear a grudge, but I wouldn't think them an evil person.

I don't have to provide proof.  That's entirely your burden, as you're the one saying that I have this or that duty.  If you think that we have a duty until someone shows that we don't, then refer to my earlier comments.  I'm still waiting for someone to definitively prove that we don't have a duty to kill babies.  The fact that there's no reason for such a duty is reason enough to deny it.  The same holds for these duties you advocate.

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The more you talk about it the more I convinced that you are not really interested in doing much of anything.

As with Fresca, I just don't see where you're getting this from.  It seems to me like you're equating 'not believing in a duty to do something' and 'not wanting to do something', which is, frankly, silly.  To take something relevant to this forum - I don't believe that we have a duty to play Warhammer, but I play anyway.  Likewise, I don't believe that we have a duty to aid, but I aid anyway.

The essence of my argument is simply that we cannot be said to have a duty if there is no reason for such a duty to exist.  A 'reason' is not simply something like 'because I think it's nice', which is what so many of the arguments for a duty to aid boil down to.  Without reference to subjective notions, demonstrate that we have a duty.  Show me that even someone who places no value whatsoever on human life, even his own, still has a duty to save lives.  Show me that this person, who also happens to place a great deal of value on killing small children, is wrong when he says that you have a duty to help him kill babies.  That's all that I ask.  I'm just not marking a difference between what he's saying and what you're saying, except for the fact that my life would be much more pleasant under your system.  However, surely that's not a reason for a duty, as this hypothetical person would undoubtedly have a more pleasant life under his system.

Offline Captain Hajime

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Re: Drugs... the prescribed ones, not the other kind
« Reply #65 on: March 5, 2006, 04:15:15 PM »
I Give Up! Everything about your argument relies on finding proof on something that can't even be mensured. You are Wrong as the world doesn't work under your way of thinking. I fail to see why you do anything since there seems to be no way for anyone to proof that you have a duty to do anything. I know it wrong to kill people without cause and children have very little chance of giving cause. I have no idea if these can ever meet you need for proof. Certainly you proof nothing to me, argument and clearly at least part of this argument isn't not about duty but of cost of health care. You never proofed that Public care was more expensive. Oh by the way the main reason why government don't let people opt out of public Medical care is because then they ask to opt out of every thing else for this reason or that.
"Men from different wordls, with different views, bound together by loyality to the Emperor. This is what we have become." Captain Hajime
"I have remembered, I do remember, I will always remember."
Imperial Guard, Space marines and Ork Collector.
First Fuji Regiment W: 0 L:     2 D: 4
Tenno No Samurai W: 1 l: 5 D: 7

 


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