Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!

[englishharlie]

Well in CJ39 if you check (just did myself as I have a nasty habit of mis-reading things) you'll see that when the round of combat is drawn the enemy unit does not get to move models 6" to engage the harlies. So basically in 4th that means no pile in.

So Imagine a unit of say 20 Orks, spread to a reasonable degree. You charge in and (surprise surprise) clear the kill zone. Still plenty Orks left lets say the charge killed 8. So they can't break and even if they did the kill zone is clear so no sweep. You then get to pile in and contact the Orks for the next round. Without tanglefoot they would get to pile in back and whilst giving you a lot more targets they are also going to be able to strike back hardcore in the next round. By stopping the pile in move you get an extra turn to bring the numbers down before they are able to pile in and bring the attacks to bear.

So there you go. Basically against Nids and Orks tanglefoot are going to allow you a turn without needing to face attacks or at least facing very few attacks, this allows you to bring the numbers down so when they do pile in and strike back hopefully you've killed enough to not completely lose a troupe. Charge in without them and you more than likely will not break or sweep the unit, they will pile in and they will strike back next turn, reducing the attacking harlequins to pulp.

Does that help?

Also I missed the 4th ed comment about precedence. Only 2 armies have a codex for 4th, you'll end up in a nasty circle if you wait for them all to come out. By the time you have all the books it'll be very quickly becoming 5th ed. Personally I see the entry for tanglefoot in the CJ list as a good reason for keeping the 'no pile in' thing, whatever you do with the other effects which no longer function properly is another matter. Also I've not seen anything half the enemy initiative in the recent books, does this not therefore set precenence?

English

[SeaMonKeigh]

I have noticed that a lot of people have complaints about the Mimes in a Harlequin army.  I think they have not examined the facts closely which reveals the truth of the matter very quickly.

When Dark Eldar join a Masque they would become Mimes.  This stands the test of logic because Dark Eldar live to inflict pain.  And everyone knows there is nothing more painful than a Mime performance.

[Rasmus]

Welcome to 40konline!

I have noticed that a lot of people have complaints about the Mimes in a Harlequin army.  I think they have not examined the facts closely which reveals the truth of the matter very quickly.

When Dark Eldar join a Masque they would become Mimes.  This stands the test of logic because Dark Eldar live to inflict pain.  And everyone knows there is nothing more painful than a Mime performance.

   Actually that is not quite true. When any eldar; exodite, craftworlder or Dark Kin, enters the Harlequin ranks they always start off as mimes, and not as a test, but as a period of training, to perfect the skills that are required to become a Trouper.

[SeaMonKeigh]

I think I found a typo:

on pg 8 "Please note that Mimes are no not 0-1". 

Should this read "Please note that Mimes are now not 0-1."?  Or "Please note that Mimes are no longer limited to 0-1?"  Thanks for the great job. 

[Rasmus]

That has been fixed, but not uploaded. Thanks anyway.

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

hey guys, beena while, have been back to uk on holidays ,and work like teh provebial biatch, but back try and argue some balancw again 

so, did anyone get chance to play test the paired gun sugestions i put forward. i have dabbled a little with them using a friends force as mine is now 8000 miles away and i have found that they work ok, as the better shooting balances out teh loss of hand to hand ability for both characters and troupes.

i priced twin linking at + 2 for base troops and half the gun cost for characters and unit upgrades.

what about teh other discussions we had going.

still got that ridiculously powerful hit and fade thing in? anyone got views on it.. you all know mine.

hope you are all well. look forward to further discussions.
tarrin

[Rasmus]

Twin-linking pistols is not something I have been able to test since I tend to favour FoF, and the BS of the Harlequins is not that poor.
As for Hit and Fade; the rule works and while it may not be perfect it is the best suggestion to date. If yo ucan make one that makes more sense (none have surfaced yet) then we would be happy to test it.

[englishharlie]

I think I have to agree with Rasmus about the pistols, twin-linking them is a great idea but I very rarely find myself not wanting to FoF, the times that I do not FoF is usually when I'm tucked nicely in cover anyway and all FoF would do is expose me so there isn't any chance to shoot.

The one place I would use it is when I off load a venom and I'm already happy that I'm in charge range and it is worth me shooting the squad I'm going to charge. Also (not sure what you think of the ruling but that matters not) we allow a squad to shoot a transport and then assault it's contents. So in the past I've off loaded the harlies, blown a trukk and then been in place to charge the trukk boys, TL would probably help here for the times the trukk does not blow!

As for hit and fade, my own changes do not include it and although I'm not winning much I would not say that I feel it necessary. I'm not suggesting anything else so I'm not suggesting you drop it, all I'm saying is that currently I don't feel *I* need it.

Rasmus: Did you have any thoughts on the tanglefoot grenades? I just feel that the CJ39 version which stop the pile-in move are very powerful and well worth the points and now you know about this I thought you might add it back into your revision. I think they certainly warrant some play testing at least.

English

[Rasmus]

I am looking into it, but have yet to make a good model to playtest it properly. I will get back to you on this though.

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

I have found that the twin pistols doesn't stop you fleet of footing just gives you an option when you find yourself close enough to shoot without needing FoF. It also benefits facing armies where you know you will not be able to assault, eg 11" inches away, risking and requiring that 5 or 6 to FoF to make it. Do you risk it and be shot. with our weak T and AV i think an extra option is needed.

It also benefits a unit who doesn't disembark from the venom, since they can all shoot.
At the moment i feel that all the options benefit us in Hand to hand, and opponenets (well the ones i play) have started using more vehicles, which really neutralises my force, haywire not withstanding. The pistols would add flexibility within the rules, and add an extra dimension to the army.

Its an option not a requirement 

As for the Hit and fade, i will propose two more possibilities.

1: just give each quin an extra attack on the charge as if armed with blades ( powerblades but forgotten batteries). this is statistically less damaging than the rerolls but potentially more damaging. also doesnt sound as bad.

you have a warlock skill that does this and this combined with hit and fade combined is really too good, with all our kit we have.

2: Allow quins to always FoF and then shoot. extra movement marks speed and skill, and allows shooting to compensate for the damage in h2h.

you wanted ideas 

[Rasmus]

As for the hit and fade options you have suggested.
1. Another +1? One of the biggest gripes people have with the Harlequions is the insane amount of attackes they get in a single turn, and you want to add more? How will this make the army more playable?
2. This will, as we have discussed previously, set a precendent, which we are trying not to do. Some things do, but very few in the Revision without having been set in the CJ-rules. The less of these we make, the better.

[englishharlie]

In response to Tarrin's suggestions:

1) IMO is a better option to 'hit and fade'. 'HIt and Fade' means you re-roll all misses on the turn you charge, so if I roll up say six hits for a harlie troupe of 6 bodies (believe you me it happens, too regularly) I then get to re-roll one ton of to-hit rolls. If I were to use Tarrin's suggestion then I jst get an extra six dice to start with which IMO is nothing much at all.

2) Suppose I can see why this would be a bad idea. But from a perspective of not caring about precedence then IMO this is a good idea.

As I say this is my opinion,

English

[Rasmus]

I am setting up playtesting for the tanglefoot. I will get back to you with the results.

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

Thank you english.
i have never had people complain about numbers of attacks as the basic trooper and sergeant can only have 4 on the charge, 5 if you add your warlock. compared to orks, or assault marines and we get a raw deal, but then we have kit to balance. Still rerolling all our misses is too much. The SM chaplain's unit can do it yes, but that is one unit, not all and sundry.
By adding an extra attack each onto the profile, you are stating that we are better in hand to hand skill wise than they are. 3 basic, 1 paired, 1 charge, but you will stop a lot of whingers who will see the reroll as bad ju ju.

every time, i mean every time i have played with eth hit and fade i have had complainst, because 3+ with a reroll is awesome, you will hit with 80%+ of your dice, and with all our kit, waste everything. Statiscally the extra attackis weker but potentail in it is amazing, on the charge but your opponenet is less likely to complin, when you roll one set of dice , rather than two.

Also it would help in defence with use still having good fighting abilities in defence. its a trade off, does not set a precedent rule for the whole army ( rather than a unit) and will make your oppoenent and yourself happier.

good idea on the tanglefoot. better than the current rules. will playtest asap.
another idea is that tehy are used in defence much liek teh photon grenades of the tau to stop charge bonus. no need for rules changes there.

although stopping an opponent following up sounds like a rule precedence to me. are you sure you want to have this in there

all armies put forward a rule precedent each book published. So long as it is to teh flavour of teh rukes you can justify it.
remember the aim is to do what it takes to have a balanced codex, not end up with a list from which only certain things are used becuase they are good.

n.

[Rasmus]

every time, i mean every time i have played with eth hit and fade i have had complainst, because 3+ with a reroll is awesome, you will hit with 80%+ of your dice, and with all our kit, waste everything. Statiscally the extra attackis weker but potentail in it is amazing, on the charge but your opponenet is less likely to complin, when you roll one set of dice , rather than two.

good idea on the tanglefoot. better than the current rules. will playtest asap.
another idea is that tehy are used in defence much liek teh photon grenades of the tau to stop charge bonus. no need for rules changes there.

although stopping an opponent following up sounds like a rule precedence to me. are you sure you want to have this in there

   1. When you only wound a marine 32% of the time with a trouper worth almost twice as much as one, that 80% is fairly balanced, if you do the math of it.
   2. It is "in addition to", not "instead of" the current tanglefoot-rules.
   3. No, as this rule was in the web-release and later in CJ 39. Gav is setting the precedent here, not us. See the difference?

[SeaMonKeigh]

I have a rule clarification question.

Mimes are novice Harlequins and as such don't benefit from holo suits, Flip Belts and the like.  I understand that the holo suit grants the 4+ save from shooting and the flip belt give the 5+ in HtH, therefore the mimes receive no save?

Also, is a Fell Blade a power weapon?  I don't see what it does or what benefit it confers. 

Thanks a bunch for all your work.

[Rasmus]

Correct. Mimes = save-less. Tough huh?
Fell blade is a heavy close combat weapon. This is spelled out in the Revision, I am a tad surprised you missed it. The rules for heavy close combat weapons are in the rulebook.

[SeaMonKeigh]

Thanks for the clarification.  Why did the Mimes move to no save?  Is there something in the fluff?

[Rasmus]

They never had a save, the entry in cj 44 was an error in editing. They are just not equipped well enough.

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

   1. When you only wound a marine 32% of the time with a trouper worth almost twice as much as one, that 80% is fairly balanced, if you do the math of it.

But that trouper is statiscally going to wound a marine more than its points worth of a tau, or guardsmen. I think you are missing my point here. The people i play agaisnt think that the reroll is too much. i have played with over 20 different people on both sides of the atlantic and it was a common complaint. I really feel that it needs to be addressed. I have given several suggestions, but all have been turned down, even when other players have agreed. all i ask is that a playtest be in order.

The quins are already sick in hand to hand, without it, under CJ rules i won 65%+ of the time, even in 4 ed.  i think that the army needs to grow into a slightly more balanced force from where it is at the moment. having more h2h stuff is not needed, with the High WS, high I, power weapons, number of attacks, fell blades, kisses, masks and grenades. ok they cost but another freebie which make quins awesome in hand is realy not needed. Hand to hand is there thing i realise this, every other ary has some balance ( even khorne, orks and nids which are the H2H armies)

Perhaps if you really think this is needed ( i don't) tone it down, make it:

1: that you only get it when you have not fleet of footed (needing time to prepare for the fight, pick targets)

2: doesn't work when charging into cover ( need to ensure safe footing)

3: Is countered by tau photon grenades, creatures hitting first (banshees).
4: any other exceptions that make use not look beardy.

   2. It is "in addition to", not "instead of" the current tanglefoot-rules.

you are joking me right. come on! what else do you want grenades that play a little fanfare when you win close combat.

   3. No, as this rule was in the web-release and later in CJ 39. Gav is setting the precedent here, not us. See the difference?

fair enough i was not aware of this precedent. but even though a little well placed imagination never hurts. how else do you write new materials and rules for a wide ranging popular game.
please don't take my comments as harsh, i mean them in a friendly way, so no flaming.