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Offline Greggor Sin, the Jolly

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[Kind of New][2k List][C&C Welcome]
« on: March 5, 2008, 09:02:42 AM »
Traits: See, But Don't Be Seen; Cleanse + Purify;; Flesh Over Steel

Master: Termi, Iron Halo, StBolter, PW
+Terminator Command x5: 2x Ast Can, Furious Charge, 2x Chain Fists, Purity Seals
+Codicier: Termi, StShd, Fury of the Ancients
...556 (Held in Reserve)

Chaplain: Artificier, Honours, BPistol, Krak, Purity Seals
...128 (Joins unit of Tactical Squad, as necessary)

Venerable Dreanought: Ast Can, Hvy Flamer, XA, SLaun, SLight; Tank Hunter
...164

Tactical Squad x10: 2x Plasma guns, Vet Sgt: Homer, PFist
...210

Tactical Squad x10: 2x Plasma guns, Vet Sgt: Homer, PFist
...210

Scout Squad x5: 4x SRifles, ML, Vet Sgt: Homer
...113

Tactical Squad x10: ML, Flamer, Vet Sgt: Homer, PFist
+Rhino: SLaun
...254

Devastator Squad x10: 2x PlasCan, 2x HvBolter, Infiltrate
...280

Whirlwind, as is
...85

Total: 2,000
Infantry: 53
Vehicle Total: 3
Anti-Tank: None (-weakness?)

I really liked this list, mostly because I already have all the models.  The only problem I have is that one of the opponents I play against is a LRuss-friendly IG player, who also takes a Basilisk... So, Pie-plates are my enemy, especially S8-9 Ap3.

One of my ideas involves taking a Cyclone ML on the Terminators, but then I'll need my codex to do that, and that's AWOL.  Also, they're not going to DS in until at least turn 2 (if I'm lucky, that is). 

I'm kind of being rushed right now, so I'm going to have to post the rest of my thoughts later.  But C&C is welcome for now...

PS, this list is not meant for tournaments - just friendly games.  I don't plan on winning a lot, but I sure don't want to lose a lot.

Offline Windsong

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Re: [Kind of New][2k List][C&C Welcome]
« Reply #1 on: March 5, 2008, 10:50:54 AM »
Humm, foundations are fine, but it needs some rework on the top and edges of your list.  :)

First :

Hq:   Master (of sanctity ? ) If I'm right, why pay him an iron halo, as he already has a 4+ invulnerable, if it's not, ok then. For the retinue, and the massive presence of pie plates in the enemy zone, I'd suggest dropping one termi, and make the codicier into a motorbiker one.

Find a jump pack and power fist for the chaplain, it's so much fun to crush vehicles and basilisks this easily.

Oups, for the venerable dread, at least get him a missile launcher ! Have you really seen good opportunities to use an heavy flamer without going into a drop pod ?  ???

The first two tactical squad can stay with just 8 models each, it's sufficient.

The scouts, . . . an homer on a squad that's not going into the enemy deployment zone, that's a little bit of a waste if you ask me.

Perfect for the tactical squad in rhino.

But the devas, Oh my ! Make it two 6 men devas, one with your antitank, the other with the heavy bolters.


That's all for now.
The winds of change are coming,
Nothing will stay as it is now,
for the whole world is gonna change.

Follow the way of the frenchie. ;)


Offline Greggor Sin, the Jolly

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Re: [Kind of New][2k List][C&C Welcome]
« Reply #2 on: March 5, 2008, 12:26:19 PM »
I appreciate the input.

Quote
Humm, foundations are fine, but it needs some rework on the top and edges of your list.  :)

Noted.

Quote
Hq:   Master (of sanctity ? ) If I'm right, why pay him an iron halo, as he already has a 4+ invulnerable, if it's not, ok then. For the retinue, and the massive presence of pie plates in the enemy zone, I'd suggest dropping one termi, and make the codicier into a motorbiker one.

Find a jump pack and power fist for the chaplain, it's so much fun to crush vehicles and basilisks this easily.

Master... as in Commander.  I didn't really make that clear.  I'm still iffy on paying the points since he has the Termi-5+, but I really don't want him dying, you know?

Codicier needs to be a part of the unit, otherwise I'd have too many HQ's.

Getting the Chaplain behind the lines to those vehicles, alone, seems like suicide.  Especially with only two wounds.  I find that assault squads generally get shot up by the IG player, but I'm willing to re-think taking a squad.

Quote
Oups, for the venerable dread, at least get him a missile launcher ! Have you really seen good opportunities to use an heavy flamer without going into a drop pod ?  ???

Would two weapons be a better option?  I only pay for the HF because that's the way my E-bay-model came.  ...OTOH, I've been thinking of taking a Drop Pod- I'm just afraid of him being alone come the IG player's turn.  Plus, I don't have the model for a Drop Pod, and acquiring a suitable one seems a lot of extra work.  But I'm definetly contemplating one.

Quote
The first two tactical squad can stay with just 8 models each, it's sufficient.

The scouts, . . . an homer on a squad that's not going into the enemy deployment zone, that's a little bit of a waste if you ask me.

Perfect for the tactical squad in rhino.

I like the Tactical Squads being 10-man units, just for fluff reasons, but I'd only drop down to 9, unless I was going to use a Razorback (again, an option I'd consider).  9's a more tactical number to me (3-kills to drop 25%).  The homer's are a must only because the Rhino-squad has a chance of getting shot the hell up.

I guess you're right on the Scouts, considering I'd probably never use it, and it's a large 18 pts going to that unit for just that option.

Quote
But the devas, Oh my ! Make it two 6 men devas, one with your antitank, the other with the heavy bolters.

That's all for now.

Again, I prefer 10-man squads, but dropping them down to 6 to make room for another unit would make sense.

Few more questions:
+Are Plasma Cannons worth it in a HvBolter Dev Squad?  I like the range, and the blast, and the AP, and the S, but the cost!  Golden Throne, they're expensive!
+What about Cyclone ML's on the Termies?  Are they worth it?
+And is the Assault squad worth it, if I take a large number?

Thanks again.

Offline Wuestenfux

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Re: [Kind of New][2k List][C&C Welcome]
« Reply #3 on: March 5, 2008, 01:46:56 PM »
Its good for a friendly list, but its semi-competitive.
First, infiltrating lists are not easy to play successfully. You need to keep the enemy at arm's length, soften him up before your infiltrators charge.
If you consider an infiltrating concept, then most of the army should infiltrate, not just 2 Tacticals and two shooty squads (sniper Scouts plus Devastators). The latter two squads should be placed in the backfield anyway.

An infiltrating shooty army should be based on 3 HS Dev squads plus 3 Elite Dev squads.
An infiltrating CC army needs a different approach. Take 6 fully kitted out Tactical squads led by Vet Sergeants with power fists (add plasma gun and heavy bolter); one squad should be upgraded to a Cmd squad led by an Epistolary with fota, vot. Two Dev squads able to deal with armour will round up the list.

Offline NewHeretic

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Re: [Kind of New][2k List][C&C Welcome]
« Reply #4 on: March 5, 2008, 02:16:29 PM »
Traits: See, But Don't Be Seen; Cleanse + Purify;; Flesh Over Steel

Traits noted.  Here we go.

Master: Termi, Iron Halo, StBolter, PW
+Terminator Command x5: 2x Ast Can, Furious Charge, 2x Chain Fists, Purity Seals
+Codicier: Termi, StShd, Fury of the Ancients
...556 (Held in Reserve)

Honestly, Furious Charge is not worth the points on Powerfist-equipped Terminators.  You don't get the Initiative bonus and the Strength bonus is certainly useless against IG!  If may be slightly beneficial if you intend to assault tanks, but that's what you added two Chainfists for.  Save the points.  Make sure the Chainfists are on the Asssault Cannon-toting Terminators.

I'd advise you to drop the Iron Halo since you already have your Master Commander in Terminator Armor.  The +1 to his Invulnerable Save is not worth the cost of the Halo.  Since he can't be picked out to be shot, he only needs the extra save in close combat.  As a result, it would be much cheaper for you to simply equip him with a Storm Shield as you've done for your Codicier.  Use some of the points to give him Terminator Honors for that extra Attack.

I have not found Purity Seals to be a worthwhile addition to Space Marine squads.  I'd save the points.

Your Codicier looks fine, though you might want to add Terminator Honors and/or Master Craft his Force Weapon if you have some extra points.

Chaplain: Artificier, Honours, BPistol, Krak, Purity Seals
...128 (Joins unit of Tactical Squad, as necessary)

Again, honestly, three HQs is a huge expenditure of points.  I'd drop this guy or attach him to the Terminator Command Squad in place of the Codicier if I were you.

If not, then drop the Purity Seals, he and any squad he is with are fearless, so Purity Seals are worthless on him.  Also, exchange the Krak Grenades for Melta Bombs.  Finally, he's a close combat unit, so see my comments below about equipping your Tactical Squads for close combat.

Venerable Dreanought: Ast Can, Hvy Flamer, XA, SLaun, SLight; Tank Hunter
...164

Search Lights are more deadly to the model they're given to than they are to the enemy.  Drop them, even though they're dirt cheap.  Tank Hunter is not really useful on an Assault Cannon Dreadnought.  I advise dropping it.  I also advise dropping the Heavy Flamer and keeping his Storm Bolter unless you give him a Drop Pod.  (Paint up a Gatorade Bottle.  I've made six of my own Drop Pods that way and they really look great.  They're extremely inexpensive that way too.   ;))

Venerable is good, however, and Extra Armor and Smoke Launchers are a must for his survivability, so good job there.

Tactical Squad x10: 2x Plasma guns, Vet Sgt: Homer, PFist
...210

Tactical Squad x10: 2x Plasma guns, Vet Sgt: Homer, PFist
...210

The problem with these squads is that they are too slow to be very effective.  Either give them a Rhino transport (remember, if they don't disembark, both of your Plasma Gunners may fire out of the top hatches of each Rhino.  It's a neat trick if the opponent can't bring any weapons to bare on your Rhino during his next turn.   ;D)  or give them Infiltrate (my suggestion since you took the trait to do so and it's cheaper).  Otherwise, they're perfect.  (I use the trait Cleanse and Purify myself and either equip my 10-man/2 Plasma Gun units with a Rhino or a Drop Pod.)

Scout Squad x5: 4x SRifles, ML, Vet Sgt: Homer
...113

I'm afraid these guys don't really fit.  You're going to want to get real close to his squads to Rapid Fire or for close combat.  As a result, your Snipers are going to have their LOS blocked too badly to be of much use.  As Windsong said, the Teleport Homer is worthless on this unit since you'll be deploying them far from the enemy's position.

My suggestion is to turn this squad into a close combat squad by issuing them each a ccw/bp then upgrading the sgt to Vet status and equipping him with a Teleport Homer and a pair of Lightning Claws or, at least, a Power Sword of Powerfist.  Without the weapons, you're paying 18 points for the Teleport Homer!  Your best bet might just be to drop this squad altogether and use the points for Rhinos or Drop Pods for your previous two Tactical Squads and/or a Drop Pod for your Dreadnought.  Remember, Rhinos must have Extra Armor and Smoke Launchers for maximum efficiency.

Tactical Squad x10: ML, Flamer, Vet Sgt: Homer, PFist
+Rhino: SLaun
...254

Devastator Squad x10: 2x PlasCan, 2x HvBolter, Infiltrate
...280

Here's what I suggest you do with these two squads.

First, give all of the following squads Infiltrate.

Now, using the Marine models in these two squads and adding some with the points you've saved from dropping the Scout Squad, make yourself two 5- or 6-man Tactical squads with a Plasma Cannon and Plasma Gun (if you have more) each.  (6-man squads are better.)  Then, make a single 5- or 6-man (again, 6 is better) Devastator Squad with both of the Heavy Bolters and the Missile Launcher.  You'll save a lot of points putting the Plasma Cannons in Tactical squads rather than Devastator Squads.  You may even have enough points left for another Tactical Squad to give the Missile Launcher to.  That would be ideal.  Even better, replace the ML with a Lascannon if you have the model for it.  That way all of your squads are focused instead of being Jacks-of-All-Trades, Masters-of-None.

(These shooty squads won't need transports of any kind, nor will you need to upgrade their sgts to Vet status.)

Whirlwind, as is
...85

This is a great unit, but I'm not sure it'll be of much use to you against your IG opponent.  If his army list is a static gun-line, they won't be moving much so Castellan Missiles won't help you.  You'll also be moving toward him so you won't need to block many enemy assaults with mine fields.  Make sure you use the othe missiles (forgot their name), the ones that will explode as soon as they're fired.

Anti-Tank: None (-weakness?)

With my suggestions, you'll have lots of anti-tank, it just won't be the most powerful (i.e. Lascannons).  You'll have an Assault Cannon (light or heavy vehicles), two Plasma Cannons, many Plasma Guns, and two Heavy Bolters for light vehicles, a Missile Launcher for heavier vehicles, and, finally, you'll have a load of Powerfists/Chainfists to act as anti-tank when needed.  I think that should be enough.

...only problem I have is that one of the opponents I play against is a LRuss-friendly IG player, who also takes a Basilisk... So, Pie-plates are my enemy, especially S8-9 Ap3.

Again, I suggest you use Infiltrate so that you can deploy your Tactical Squads in cover for the save and spread them out more than if they're entangled in a destroyed Rhino.

One of my ideas involves taking a Cyclone ML on the Terminators...

I've never used Cyclone MLs, but they may be effective.  I think Assault Cannons are better.  Though the Terminator model with the Cyclone ML may fire his Storm Bolter in the same round as he fires his missile, it's not useful against tanks.  The only real advantage is the added range of the Cyclone missiles.

I hope this helps,

NewHeretic
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Whom you will serve...
As for me and my house,
We will serve the Lord.

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