Topic: Eldar Corsair Codex! (project?)

[Lord Ulthanash]

Perhaps this belongs more in the Projects section, but if so a mod can move it...

Before I begin, I am aware that there is a pdf of sorts up for pirates/corsairs, HOWEVER that is based off of old Rogue Trader stuff, old fluff, etc...

I'm interested in creating a new, unified codex for eldar corsairs/pirates (I will stick to corsairs, because it sounds awesome) for eldar corsair users of 40konline to use in friendly matches. I want this to be a fair, BALANCED list for use in games with friends.

This was largely brought on by the upcoming release of the dark eldar, and I was thinking that there could be some amazing modelling opportunities for a corsair fleet by mixing bitz from both CWE and DE.

Anyway, I'm thinking that pirate fleets would be based largely off of the eldar codex, with LIMITED dark eldar wargear based on the idea that some trade and/or interaction goes on with the Dark Kin while walking the path of damnation

The way I see eldar are generally a fast army with powerful firepower and specialization

and dark eldar as a very fast army that is very combat based.

I'd think eldar corsairs would be a sort of mid-way point, moderately fast, able to put on the fire power and the close combat, but without the same degree of specialization (lack of aspect warriors) and not to the same level

Do not have the dark eldar codex, but I glimpsed through it on friday at my local shop, when I finally get my hands on it I will be able to go through with it in more detail, until then, this stuff is all going to be based on the eldar codex.

I think the general structure a corsair fleet would follow is:

HQ:
Fleet Admiral / Commodore (possibly represented by Autarch, Archon, or some combination of the two): the big bad boy on the ship(s), has the choicest wargear (DE and Eldar armories?) best skills, superior tactics, etc...

First Lieutenant (Captain?): The idea is basically the same, except he's in charge of one ship - in game turns it would be the lower point version of the admiral, less wargear options, slightly less skilled, etc...

ELITES:
Admiral's Bodyguards: possibly modeled around Incubi or Warlocks (without psychic powers). These are the elite pirates, the guys who have been through thick and thin and know what they're doing.

Corsair Specialists: As corsair fleets lack aspect warriors, they're going to half to get those dedicated units (tank destruction, combat) elsewhere. I'm thinking specialists - pirates who are so in love with one method of battle that is what they stick to. One set statline, but with different wargear options (effective for the entire unit) that sets them apart. I'm thinking one type of specialist group armed with meltas or flamers, and another armed with chainsword/power weapon + pistol

Elite Specialist: Essentially an exarch, access to more specialized wargear (not to the degree of a lieutenant or admiral)

Harlequins - they deal with the dark eldar as well as the eldar, so I don't see why they wouldn't have an occasional dealing with corsairs.

TROOPS:
rangers - they walk th epath of damnation = they could be working for a pirate fleet as well. the same as in the codex.

Eldar Corsairs:
the average eldar pirate. possibly a combination of dire avenger statline with kabalite warrior statline? I'm thinking each individual model could have differing weapons, so one person in the unit may be rocking out with pistol + cc weapon while another has a shuriken catupult and another has some dark eldar weaponry. The dark eldar weaponry should be limited by a ratio to the squad size, representing the rarity of such weapons. Debating the fluffiness with myself about heavy weapons - yes/no?

FAST ATTACK:
some combination of jetbikes with reaver jetbikes could be fluffy and viable, yes? Perhaps a ratio to the unit size allowing laser lances.

debating if it would be possible for a regular unit of corsairs to get access to warp spider warp packs. Somehow I doubt it. If so they would not have the warp spiders 3+ save.

TRANSPORTS:
we'd have to design a name for it, as I do not think using a raider, ravager, falcon or wave serpent would be fluffy. Definitely a fast skimmer, possibly open topped. Maybe something like

Front Armor
12

Side Armor
11

Rear Armor
10

with a back turret similar to the vypers? the back turret and gun mounted under the hull?

HEAVY SUPPORT:

no idea. war walkers, but with some possible DE weaponry?

support weapon batteries, but the crew are eldar corsairs, not guardians. updated stats and point cost to reflect this.

EDIT:
there could be possible limitations, like maximum 1 falcon/fire prism / wave serpent, that they purchased/took with them from the craftworld.

I think any form of wraithguard or wraithlord would be unfluffy. No bonesingers to create such a body, etc...

EDIT 2:
I'm not aiming for a type of Eldritch Raider thing, which was essentially craftworld eldar in exile (according to today's fluff) but an honest, bad-to-the-bones, corsair fleet. REALLY walking that path of damnation

[Rasmus]

In the sticky there is the old Eldar Pirate-codex that we made here. perhaps it can inspire you as to the layout of the old RT Eldar Pirate list.

[Lord Ulthanash]

so I took a peek at the old EO pirate-list, it was very useful.

I don't generally like the idea of having a genuine 'psyker' amongst pirates, as the fluff has generally dictated that walking the path of the seer takes a long time - not leaving much time for the path of damnation. warlock powers I may think about adding, but not farseer powers. A lot of this will be a combination of my own ideas with Rasmus' list.

HQ:
Fleet Admiral - 65 points
WS BS S T W I A Ld  Sv
 5    5  4 4 3  6 3 10  3+

May take up to 100 points of wargear (what exactly counts as pirate wargear will be defined at a later date).

- independent character
- master strategist
- fleet of foot
- fearless

Retinue
1 - 10 models

A Fleet Admiral MUST take a Retinue into battle. This Retinue is comprised of his senior captains, their lieutenants, and any senior/distinguished pirate in the fleet.

Pirate Veteran - 15 points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
 4   4   3 3  1 5 1 9  4+

Pirate Lieutenant - 25 points
WS BS S T W I A  Ld  Sv
 4    4  4 3 2  5 2  9    4+

Pirate Captain - 35 points
WS BS S T W I A  Ld  Sv
  5   5  4 3  2 5 3  9   3+

One model in the Retinue MUST be upgraded to a Pirate Captain. The Pirate Captain is allowed up to 65 points of wargear from the pirate armory.

Up to two models in the Retinue must be upgraded to a Pirate Lieutenant. The pirate lieutenant is allowed up to 35 points of wargear from the pirate armory.

Pirate veteran's are permitted up to 20 points of wargear from the pirate armory.

that's all for today.

EDIT:
still in production, taking a long look through the new DE dex to see if there is any information and/or weaponry that can be of use to corsairs.

[Natinator]

Love this idea - just a thought... maybe instead of good armour saves (3+ or better), have increased toughness, so maybe wargear that increases toughness? To represent that the corsairs have a bit of a motley assortment of weapons/armour, and then maybe some inuln saves with wargear.

Just a suggestion, as I think it might fit with the corsair theme

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

Just a question, not really sure what makes pirate leaders the toughest and strongest of the Eldar? Why the S and T 4? No eldar has that, cept for Phoenix Lords (and Eldrad has the same T for some reason...).

Also, basic trooper stats would be easy to come up with, probaby 8 points a pop,
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
  4   3  3  3 1 4 1 8  5+
Not quite as battle hardened as the dark eldar, not quite as disciplined as the eldar, but they're around the same because in the end, they're still eldar.

[Lord Ulthanash]

Just a question, not really sure what makes pirate leaders the toughest and strongest of the Eldar? Why the S and T 4? No eldar has that, cept for Phoenix Lords (and Eldrad has the same T for some reason...).

Also, basic trooper stats would be easy to come up with, probaby 8 points a pop,
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
  4   3  3  3 1 4 1 8  5+

Not quite as battle hardened as the dark eldar, not quite as disciplined as the eldar, but they're around the same because in the end, they're still eldar.

I think your suggested statline is too weak for the pirates, but then again these guys aren't meant to be Space Marines. I'd be more inclined to say:

WS BS S T W  I  A Ld Sv
 4    4  3 3 1   4 1  8  5+

this way their I, Ld and Sv are different from the Veteran's, but their actual 'skill' is more or less the same. More talented than guardians, less talented than avengers. I'd say around 10 points per model. With the 'eldar' things (S, T) they are the same as avengers, DE, guardians.

The idea was that S4 and T4 was the result of the pirates having arcane and specialized wargear (either traded or raided from the Imperium, Tau, etc...) but I guess this can be done better through equipment and upgrades and wargear.

But I had the idea today that the pirates would not be as specialized when it came to close combat as the craftworld eldar are. so instead of having a specialized squad that deals with hordes, armored infantry, etc... (like scorpions, banshees) the combat specialists would all be in one unit, but armed slightly differently. does anyone else agree or no?

I was thinking armed with pistol + cc weapon, but the cc weapons could be upgraded with:

scorpion chainsword
power weapon

and the veteran could choose between a:
singing spear
witchblade
diresword

There would have to be a limit on those last three per pirate army or points, considering that the first two are psyker weapons (indicating that before the veteran went rogue he had walked the path of the seer) and diresword being rare (I can imagine).

EDIT:
profile like:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4     4  3 3 1  5 1  9  4+

[Iridescente]

I don't see why their weapon and ballistic skills would be as good as an aspect warrior's, who has been training rigidly on the path of the warrior.  I would say for basic pirates keep basic guardian stats.  They're pirates, not super soldiers.  Remember that even retired aspect warriors who no longer walk the path (but still have that past experience) have guardian stats.  It's a credit to the Eldar race that their basic stats are as good as a standing army like the imperial guard.

Pirate captains, of course, can have improved stats, similar to aspect warriors or even exarchs for a high level captain.  However, I would steer clear of giving them aspect warrior-specific or seer weapons.  So steer clear of things like the scorpion chain swords, dire swords, and witch blades.  More standard weapons would be fine, like standard chain swords, shuriken catapults or pistols, fusion guns or pistols, flamers, even power swords for captains.  If you want strength boosts, going with two handed CCW's that grant +1 S (and of course take away that +1 A) would work fine.  Even a two handed power weapon that gives +1 S would be fine for a captain, if you fancied that.  I would definitely recommend mixing up their weapon load outs to reinforce the fact that they're a bunch of individuals and not a uniformly armed military unit.

Giving them the freedom to mix and match standard weapons, special weapons, and close combat weapons would give them a versatility that regular guardians don't have, and even with a similar statline you can see the kinds of benefits you can gain from arming them this way.

Since you're using pirates but will have guardian equivalent units, coming up with unique and exotic pieces of gear that simulate certain warlock powers would be a good way to enhance the units, too.  They're pirates, so making up gear that they've supposedly looted or traded would give the army more fluff, as well as utility.  Give the captain of one unit a stealth device to give a conceal type of effect, or targeters to add to to hit rolls, or whatever.  Go crazy.  But limit it to one of these rarer upgrades per unit.

And if you want crazy stats... make up special characters!  Then nobody can nay say your choices.

[Lord Ulthanash]

But if this is a genuine pirate force that is continuously raiding, why WOULDNT the pirates be skilled at fighting? I'd think that in some respects continuous pirate raids would be better warrior training than the path of the warrior.

the problem I think here is that we have such drastic differences in how pirate fleets are portrayed. Some are just guardians-in-exile, while others are borderline DE (without the soul absorption and maniacal torturing). I want to craft units that could be used for both. I'll have to do some thinking and come back.....

[Iridescente]

I guess I envision pirates being more of a rag tag motley assortment of characters.  So no real formal training, just training in the field, so to speak.  Most pirates would be of this category, so the basic stats would suit them fine and keep them cheap so you could field a bunch of them.

True, after raiding a lot some pirates would become much more skilled and tough, and learn some low down underhanded tricks.  I see these experienced pirates as being the squad leaders.  However, I see no reason why you couldn't do teams of "Grizzled" Pirates as elite units who represent pirates that do have vastly more experience than the greener units, or even specialists, such as units of pirates who are into blowing things up or pirate gangs who ride jetbikes, etc.

[Natinator]

Yeah that sounds good Bourhgen. Also you could have maybe sort of 'mixed' squads. As I envisage pirates as using a motley assortment of weapons, maybe you could give them (or atleast the Elites) and assortment of Eldar special weapons from every aspect... so you could have like a whole squad with scorpion's claw or something (obviously there would be a price for this so wouldnt be overpowerful - maybe a price that increases the more of the same weapon you take?). It would be pretty awesome IMO seeing a whole squad with Claws... just see the look on your opponents face as they walk up to their prized Venerable Dreadnought 

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

Yeah that sounds good Bourhgen. Also you could have maybe sort of 'mixed' squads. As I envisage pirates as using a motley assortment of weapons, maybe you could give them (or atleast the Elites) and assortment of Eldar special weapons from every aspect... so you could have like a whole squad with scorpion's claw or something (obviously there would be a price for this so wouldnt be overpowerful - maybe a price that increases the more of the same weapon you take?). It would be pretty awesome IMO seeing a whole squad with Claws... just see the look on your opponents face as they walk up to their prized Venerable Dreadnought 

Nah, I don't think a price increase per weapon would be needed, as long as the price was pretty high to start with, so taking more than one or two would be too many points. Look at something like Marine Vanguards, Space Wolf Wolf Guard or Blood Angels Death Company. Every model can take something like a Thunder Hammer, but it would be ridiculous to do so.

On that note, something like the regular troops, could say that they can be armed with various guns for modeling purposes, but they count as something for simplicity sake. No point in wasting a bunch of time firing some S4 AP5 gun on some, S3 AP5 guns on some, S4 AP4 guns on others sorta thing, lot of time wasted trying to figure out what's going on, then when it comes to wound allocation as well. I'm thinking back to the Eye of Terror codex for mutants with firearms for what I'm talking about. As for stats for their guns, I think they should have something unique to them, they're not going to be investing in shuriken tech, lack of wraithbone, and they're probably not going to be using splinter tech either. I'm thinking something like either 24" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire, or 18" S4 AP6 Assault 1 or some combination of the 2, hell, something unique, 18" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire?

[Lord Ulthanash]

Yeah that sounds good Bourhgen. Also you could have maybe sort of 'mixed' squads. As I envisage pirates as using a motley assortment of weapons, maybe you could give them (or atleast the Elites) and assortment of Eldar special weapons from every aspect... so you could have like a whole squad with scorpion's claw or something (obviously there would be a price for this so wouldnt be overpowerful - maybe a price that increases the more of the same weapon you take?). It would be pretty awesome IMO seeing a whole squad with Claws... just see the look on your opponents face as they walk up to their prized Venerable Dreadnought 

Nah, I don't think a price increase per weapon would be needed, as long as the price was pretty high to start with, so taking more than one or two would be too many points. Look at something like Marine Vanguards, Space Wolf Wolf Guard or Blood Angels Death Company. Every model can take something like a Thunder Hammer, but it would be ridiculous to do so.

On that note, something like the regular troops, could say that they can be armed with various guns for modeling purposes, but they count as something for simplicity sake. No point in wasting a bunch of time firing some S4 AP5 gun on some, S3 AP5 guns on some, S4 AP4 guns on others sorta thing, lot of time wasted trying to figure out what's going on, then when it comes to wound allocation as well. I'm thinking back to the Eye of Terror codex for mutants with firearms for what I'm talking about. As for stats for their guns, I think they should have something unique to them, they're not going to be investing in shuriken tech, lack of wraithbone, and they're probably not going to be using splinter tech either. I'm thinking something like either 24" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire, or 18" S4 AP6 Assault 1 or some combination of the 2, hell, something unique, 18" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire?

I wanted to give them all sorts of different weapons, but you're right about it eventually reaching a point of ridiculousness. But if we do some general brainstorming, the weapons that the average eldar pirate *could* have would be:

shuriken catapult
splinter rifle
lasgun (I believe this was a normal eldar weapon back in rogue trader anyway)

I'd think an 18" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire would be most appropriate. Eldar and DE usually wound marines on 4+ (S4 or poison) and the S4 would maintain this, but at the same time they'd only get 2 shots at 9" and 1 shot at 18" putting them in between the skill of guardians and avengers.

At the same time, I'm tempted to allow them heavy weapons, but at the same time I'm torn. I know that DE to some extent get the ability to take heavy weapons (splinter cannon, shredder, etc...) and I see no reason why a pirate would particularly care about what he was armed with.

I think granting them access to some exotic weaponry would be cool, but nothing too fancy (1, they are rare, 2, why would the average pirate get to keep the best loot?).

Perhaps the first thing I should do before creating the actual units is work on the armoury.

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

I'd think an 18" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire would be most appropriate. Eldar and DE usually wound marines on 4+ (S4 or poison) and the S4 would maintain this, but at the same time they'd only get 2 shots at 9" and 1 shot at 18" putting them in between the skill of guardians and avengers.

Nah, rapid fire is always set at 12" for double tap range.

[Iridescente]

If you look at my earlier post, I had mentioned weapon assorted goodness, but as Marshall pointed out, it would bog down the game.  Hadn't thought about that, and that sort of thing might've worked better back in 2nd edition than in 5th.

That rapid fire weapon seems like it would do the trick.  Name it something generic like "Pirate Rifle" and then you can design them to all look different but have the same stats.  Kind of like Ork Shootas or Blastas.  That way your pirates can still look like a motley assorted bunch but would still be easy to manage in game.

Letting a few pirates take fusion guns or flamers wouldn't make things too complicated, so I think that would probably be alright.  But again, I wouldn't make a habit of giving them aspect warrior-specific weapons.

I also agree about a team full of power fists/claws/gloves.  The points costs are the points costs, and there are drawbacks included.  I thought about this when trying to design a new aspect warrior.  If all the models are armed with power gloves, they'd be pretty expensive, they'd always attack last, and wouldn't benefit from the extra attack in close combat.

[Lord Ulthanash]

Nah, rapid fire is always set at 12" for double tap range.

you're right. However the basic principle is the same, at 12 inches they're equivalent to guardians, and they can go above this, but not quite to the level of avengers.

That rapid fire weapon seems like it would do the trick.  Name it something generic like "Pirate Rifle" and then you can design them to all look different but have the same stats.  Kind of like Ork Shootas or Blastas.  That way your pirates can still look like a motley assorted bunch but would still be easy to manage in game.

Letting a few pirates take fusion guns or flamers wouldn't make things too complicated, so I think that would probably be alright.  But again, I wouldn't make a habit of giving them aspect warrior-specific weapons.

I also agree about a team full of power fists/claws/gloves.  The points costs are the points costs, and there are drawbacks included.  I thought about this when trying to design a new aspect warrior.  If all the models are armed with power gloves, they'd be pretty expensive, they'd always attack last, and wouldn't benefit from t

I don't think they should be getting aspect specific gear at all, but thats different from certain weapons. power swords are banshees yes, but you can still find a powersword in other units. I'd say specific wargear and weapons (warp jump generators, hawk wings, scorpions claw, etc...) pirates would not have access to, but more generic things they would.

[Galef]

I love this idea!  I play both Eldar & Dark Eldar and base the fluff around Corsairs/freed Craftworld slaves from Commarragh.

I think a good fluff base to start with would be mercenaries.  Corsairs are rampant in the fluff of both Codecies (Duke Sliscus & Yriel come to mind) and they tend to visit Craftworld & Commorragh.  Many Dark Eldar are mercenaries (Trueborn, Incubi, Scourges) and many Eldar suffer from 'wonder lust' (Rangers).

Using this basis, you could easily just "rip-off" most units.  Also many unit have direct counter parts, whether in fluff, stats & rules, or niche.

For example:
Incubi-Scorpion, Bloodbrides-Banshees, Scourges-Hawks, Wyches-Storm Guardians,
Dire Avengers/Gaurdians-Kabalites, Fire Dragons-Trueborn, Archon-Autarch,
Reavers-Guardian Jetbikes, Wraithlords-Talos/Cronos, etc.

I think you get the point.  I am not saying to copy-and-paste, but to merely find those archetypes from each book and "average" their stats & costs.

On to Transports.  I do not think Corsairs would have AV12 transports as those are made of Wraithbone grown on Craftworlds.  I do think they would have higher than AV10, as they don't rely on WWPs like Dark Eldar.  AV11/11/10 open topped sounds great to me.

Since they ply the Void, I think it would be cool for them to use vehicle upgrades that count them as close-topped.  That way they could have the best of both, being open-topped for purposes of passengers shooting & assaulting, yet closed-top to prevent the +1 to damage.

I also don't see them using Walkers or MC's.  Unlike Craftworld & Dark Eldar, Corsairs do not use the Webway.  Any large creatures/vehicle incapable of anti-grav motion would have to be transported manually: something Eldar would think too crude to do.

[Saim-Hann Corsair]

I just read through this and want to point out the the reason Eldrad has a higher toughness is because he is so old he started to turn to crystal. This was explain years ago when he was initially released. Farseers bodies turn to crystal when they reach extreme age then their soul enters the Infinity Circuit.

[Katamari Damacy]

I guess we will all be happy when Imperial Armour 11 comes out. Rumors say they will be in it. I haven't bought IA books in years, so i don't know if we are only to see a couple of units or a fully playable armylist with models.

If all else fails, one can still mix DE Warriors and CWE Guardians as Corsair Models etc.

[KiiwanRakahari]

You said that it would be a mixture of DE and Eldar but wouldn't be as fast. I feel like a Pirate army should be played as extremely fast and Shooty, I don't think they would be as inclined to cc and if they were they would probably fight dirty and risky (Pirates, right?). They should have lots of fast open-topped skimmers like DE, But with the Shooty of the Eldar, built up around lots of hit and run attacks.

[nil]

Count me in the BS/WS 4 camp.  Eldar and eldar pirates have historically had that level of skill.  The reason guardiqns don't is that they are comppetely untrained, inexperienced levies.

Fluff I'm familiar with includes pirates using the webway. pirate psykers, and pirates using shuriken catapults and walkers.

Psykers: Fluff spends. a lot of attention on Eldar being particularly prone to warp perils, and the path system as a means of protection from the warp.  I would like to see pirate psykers be especially vulnerable to perils (say, 2, 11, or 12).

Weapons: Shuriken weapons are appropriate.  Given the evolution of SCs over GW's history, it wouldn't be unreasonable to make a variant.  Older pirate models carried heqvy weapons, and I think they'd be appropriate.  It'd be cool to have individually armed models, and wouldn't reallybe much of a headache, because there'dbe no real incentive to arm models with different small arms.  I can imagine a lot of power weapons and invuln saves ( refractor fields) with a few meltas and flamers.  It'd be hard to include much in the way of alien wargear, outside of special characters, because it'd either end up useless or de rigeur, and it'd be hard to leep it feeling special.  I would stay away from exarch weapons with occasional exceptions (EML, maybe sun rifle) but power fists would be fine.