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Author Topic: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion  (Read 13801 times)

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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2015, 11:23:33 AM »
Has anyone noticed in the new Masque formation that there are no HQs?  I wonder if that's specifically so we can't use the Allied formation...

I just want a Solitaire in my Eldar without going Unbound just for one model...

A troupe and an HQ would have been a reasonable tax, but three troops, two FA and a HS just to be able to get the Solitaire? Ugh...

Offline Farseer Jenkins

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2015, 11:19:20 PM »

I am as well very excited about this release as it was one of my first eldar armies as well.
Just now

Offline Aoitora

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2015, 09:05:58 AM »
Has anyone noticed in the new Masque formation that there are no HQs?  I wonder if that's specifically so we can't use the Allied formation...

I just want a Solitaire in my Eldar without going Unbound just for one model...

A troupe and an HQ would have been a reasonable tax, but three troops, two FA and a HS just to be able to get the Solitaire? Ugh...

It is a strange FOC that's for sure. Remember WD53 had ally status of the Harlies so there must be a way. Perhaps Harlies main force and then ally your other army? I'm not up on allies rules as I dont use them myself so not too sure.

Hmm. On that note, I'm now confused about where the rules are officially going to be.  Are all the rules in a whitedwarf, or are they releasing a book of some sort for the harlies?

This has struck me too. The rules for the troupes, solitaire, jetbikes, transport and gunboat have all been published in white dwarf. With the exception of the Shadowseer and Death Jester all the rules are out there. If you didnt care about the Warlord traits, relics etc you could just fill the basic Masque formation/detachment just using the WDs. I am very interested in getting my hands on the codex however, there's only half a dozen different units in the army and is only 10 odd pages smaller than the CWE dex. It'll either be very exciting or comes with a Warhammer Visions magazine built in.

Offline OD from TV

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2015, 03:05:29 PM »
I too find it odd that there is a lack of HQ choices Nythrulas.  While initially I had thought maybe they were going to release a Great Harlequin, at the moment I don't think that's going to be the case.  Perhaps they have a unique Force Org Chart that omits HQs, that's my only guess.

Another thing to keep in mind is that GW might be trying to push Unbound.  From my understanding it's not exactly the popular choice that the game designers thought it would be, and in a sense it's created somewhat of a divide between players.  With a release like this that will be popular it could be a chance to highlight Unbound armies, but of course this is strictly speculation.

As for the book, its up on the GW website right now, quoted at 96 pgs.  I'm tempted by the limited edition option, but severely turned off by the pricepoint of $205.

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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2015, 06:34:08 PM »
I too find it odd that there is a lack of HQ choices Nythrulas.  While initially I had thought maybe they were going to release a Great Harlequin, at the moment I don't think that's going to be the case.  Perhaps they have a unique Force Org Chart that omits HQs, that's my only guess.

Another thing to keep in mind is that GW might be trying to push Unbound.  From my understanding it's not exactly the popular choice that the game designers thought it would be, and in a sense it's created somewhat of a divide between players.  With a release like this that will be popular it could be a chance to highlight Unbound armies, but of course this is strictly speculation.

As for the book, its up on the GW website right now, quoted at 96 pgs.  I'm tempted by the limited edition option, but severely turned off by the pricepoint of $205.

Peace
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$205? Yeesh, GW. I'm excited for this book. Please don't prevent me from buying it by being unreasonable more unreasonable with your prices than usual.

I was also expecting the Great Harly to come out, but it's looking unlikely at this point.  I doubt they'll be too big on omitting HQ (maybe making them optional but not omitting them) based on the fact that the Shadowseer seems to be a much-loved model that they'd like to sell more of.  Maybe the shadowseer (and death jester) will be elites/heavies, and you're simply unable to take harlies as a primary detachment without using one of the special formations? Like, no CAd because no normal HQs?  Except the Solitaire is an HQ so hrm...

I'm not sure Unbound is something they really expected to be a "popular choice," per se. I thought it was almost more of an afterthought that translates to, "Hey, play with whatever models you want. Just talk to your opponent first, and don't be a jerk about it." 

Edit:  Preorder on GW's site for the Troupe Master edition includes "Phantasmancy" cards. Snazzy. B)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 06:43:38 PM by Wyldhunt »

Offline Nythrulas

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2015, 09:57:15 PM »
Well, I preordered the troupe master edition! I just won't eat this month...

I think the lack of an HQ is deliberate (the Solitaire is an Elite).  It specifically prevents the taking of a combined arms detachment or allied detachment.  The only detachment they can take is their Masque detachment, which has no HQ, but many elites (for the Solitaire, Shadowseers and Death Jesters), but comes at a pretty steep price in mandatory troops, FA and HS.

That said, there's supposed to be 6 different formations, that may allow a smaller force to augment another army, even without an HQ.

Also, while I'm looking forward to Phantasmancy (though I think Veil of Tears is renerfed a la old Dark Eldar), I'm more excited for Sanctic powers... which I suspect they get to cast with the same skill as Grey Knights.  Hammerhand and Gate of Infinity anyone?

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2015, 12:44:26 AM »
Hmm. How exactly is VoT getting nerfed?  I thought it was currently the worst it's ever been compared to the "original" version that was always active (now you have to activate it) or even the 6th edition FAQ version that briefly gave stealth + shrouded. Right now, you have to turn it on, and there's a chance your head explodes when you do so.

Offline Nythrulas

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2015, 04:15:50 AM »
Well, the power I saw was the number one power (not the primaris), cost one warp charge, and provided shrouded + stealth.  Due to its similarities with former incarnations of Veil of Tears, I assume it is that power's replacement.  Considering it has changed from the 4th (and 6th)ed Codex Eldar version of the spell to the 5th ed Codex Dark Eldar version, AND you have to roll to get it on your Shadowseer in the first place, then roll to cast it... it is undeniably a nerf.

In my opinion, Veil of Tears was the only hope of any unit in this codex not just being a bolter sponge.  Unless there are some juicier defensive spells in this list... Harlequins will be quite difficult to use.

Offline Fenris

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2015, 05:00:37 AM »
The phantasmancy powers are leaked out there, let me just say those powers are awesome, and the primaris, well it's the old Veil of tears.
There are three WC2 powers which leads me to believe the shadowseers will be ML2+ which is really nice. 2 powers works sort of like mind war, and another is similar to invisibility.
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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2015, 10:38:18 AM »
Well, the power I saw was the number one power (not the primaris), cost one warp charge, and provided shrouded + stealth.  Due to its similarities with former incarnations of Veil of Tears, I assume it is that power's replacement.  Considering it has changed from the 4th (and 6th)ed Codex Eldar version of the spell to the 5th ed Codex Dark Eldar version, AND you have to roll to get it on your Shadowseer in the first place, then roll to cast it... it is undeniably a nerf.

In my opinion, Veil of Tears was the only hope of any unit in this codex not just being a bolter sponge.  Unless there are some juicier defensive spells in this list... Harlequins will be quite difficult to use.

I actually think the stealth + shrouded version is sort of preferable in some ways.  Sure, it doesn't give you long-distance immunity to fire, but it makes it very easy to get a 2+ save.  Ignores cover is still a problem, but stealth + shrouded still works reliably when you're closing in on the enemy. I always found it was too easy for my opponent to simply bolter the clowns to death when I was about a turn away from the charge. 

That sounds great, Fenris!  Range veil plus shrouded veil?  That's a scary-good set of defenses!

Offline Nythrulas

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2015, 03:13:36 PM »
Heck yeah, if you can do both?

I see a phantasmancy and a sanctic shadowseer joining my seer council soon...

Offline haunt

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2015, 02:03:49 AM »
Well, so far the army list for them is coming along. Think they'll release a Harlequin Wraithlord that carries the D-Cannon? Or is the Wraithseer will be part of their list?
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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2015, 01:14:12 PM »
Well, the book is in my hand.  Here goes...

Offline Cidias

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2015, 09:55:59 PM »
So I've got mixed feelings about this book. On the one hand I love the book itself, the art and fluff writing are awesome, and I really love the new models, particularly the Jester. On the other hand in the practice runs I've played I've gotten stomped. The Harlies just don't have much staying power it seems.

I've done the math and while a 5 man Harley with kisses and special pistols can wipe out a 10 man assault squad in cc between their and the opponents' assault phases, if they roll slightly above average they wipe the opposition in their phase leaving them open to fire from nearby opponents where they just go *splat*. I'm afraid that the 5++ just isn't good enough, for the infantry or vehicles.

As for vehicles, I've never been a huge fan of bikes to begin with, but the Skyweavers actually seem pretty good. You can kit them out as vehicle hunters or super speedy melee and since they get a base armor save the fact you're not relying on a 5++ is better. As to the Star and Void weavers they just seem far too fragile; 2 hp and a 5++ doesn't last long with only 10 av. And given the Starweavers are cheap enough that getting their cargo into assault range is all that can be realistically expected of them its ok. Its the Voidweavers that get me. if you jink you lose their weapons unless you have the "mini-prism" lance. But you have to take them if you want to stay battle forged.

Which brings me to the final thing I'm not real happy about: Their force org/formations. With no HQ choices you are forced to use the Harlequin detachments. They are either (in my opinion) too costly for what I want them to do with extra units I don't want to use, or they simply don't have the units I want with the units I want them with.

I dunno, maybe a Dark Eldar player will have an easier time adapting to them than the Iyandan-y me.

Now to put a little shine in this rainstorm, I love the Death Jester and Shadow Seer. They have the same saves issue as the Troupes, but no one expects them to jump out of the boat and expose themselves like the regular players and the Shrieker Cannon and Phantasmancy powers are great. I also really like the Solitaire, but you can only have one(yes I know the fluff reason, but it still irritates me) and I just know he's going to be a bullet magnet.

I look forward to seeing some of your reactions to the book. Maybe you'll see something I missed and the Harlequins will be as awesome as I hoped they would be.

Offline Aoitora

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2015, 01:29:59 AM »
Have you tried running them on foot Cidias? The last game I had with them I ran a masque formation and had 2 in clown cars and one unit of 10 joined by 3 DJs and a SS. Luckily this Shadowseer was rocking Dance of Shadows and VoT so they were very safe going from terrain to terrain. Took out a whole flank by themselves.

The squads in the Starweavers (too many similar names -_-) did pretty much what youd expect them to do. As soon as the transports came under any concentrated fire they would crumple and the harlies became easy targets. Thus my next game Im going to look at running 3x 10 man squads and add a DJ and SS to each.

I ran my Solitaire behind the rest of my forces keeping him out of LOS. Re-rolling half his failed saves due to the masque formation made him stupidly survivable. He's better than the Phoenix Lords I feel. Poor PLs  :'(

Offline Cidias

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2015, 01:27:18 PM »
I tried foot slogging them in the last game I played. That's when I realized the saves weren't particularly useful. my opponent got the first turn and completely wiped out two squads in his first two shooting attacks. I just called it then.

Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2015, 02:06:29 PM »
Got the book, wanted a Solitaire as well but checked the price tag again and bought the new Steven Wilson record instead...

What can I say, mixed feelings describes it well. I haven't played a single game of 7th so can't really give an opinion about the rules. The Skyweavers seem decent. Don't like the Voidweaver much and the Transport is what can be expected. In my view, the Elite choices are pretty expensive for what they do and the Solitaire might not be powerful enough due to a limited amount of abusable items.

Anyways, i thought the book itself felt a bit "cheap". It's a problem i have with a couple of those new books. I especially dislike those "pictogram - random_fluff_masque" pages and I think the Background Info in this book is very disappointing. The few tiny bits they added are okay but I felt like the book is all about how fast and devastating and unbeatable the Harlequins are.

I still like the book for the fact it exists and for the awesome map.. Commorragh, very cool! From what I've gathered I'll be playing in non-FOC mode anyways in the future and I'm currently organizing my Craftworld-Quin-DEldar army, so i guess the book was worth getting.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 02:08:41 PM by Katamari Damacy »
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Offline murgel

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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2015, 05:06:32 AM »
I like the book. It makes for some very fluffy stuff and armies. And the minis are nice.

I do not like the book. The new colour schemes are not colourful enough for me and I hate the uniformity of the new approach.

So I will get a few new models and make a bright and clownish army.
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Re: The Dance of Death Begins: New Harlequin Army Discussion
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2015, 03:57:07 PM »
I bought the limited edition book and I'm super excited to play the army. Going to try and run the Full army formation, not the detachment, to get the re-rolls on 1's. Thinking of keeping the troupes on foot and sticking some Death Jesters in the starweavers for extra shurken cannon fire out of those suckers. I still need to buy one more troupe, before I can run a battle forged masque.

I'm sticking with Haywire cannons on the bikes and lances on the Voidweavers for some AP2/3 shooting. The large blast at AP4 would be nice for hordes too. Some nasty psychic powers in the codex well, plus the warlord traits are phenomenal.
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