Topic: Firearms, weapons, and the law.

[Red-Fred]

Righty ho, I've been avoiding posting in this thread because I'm sure I'll be torn to shreds. However upon seeing this statement I feel forced to act.

Actually, the lowlifes on welfare were using their money to buy smokes and alcohol.

*splutters incoherantly*

Would you, perhaps, care to look into why people are on benefits, rather than looking at what it does to them and making ignorant and cruel statements? I don't always agree with FMG or how he puts his points across, but how can you possibly accuse him of generalising whilst uttering such completely stereotypical nonsense yourself?

Had the thought possibly arisen that it may be that people receiving welfare become stuck in a rut because, throughout their entire lives, the system has failed them? First education, then employment. Could it be, and I know this may be hard to accept, that substances such as cigarettes, alcohol and in some cases illegal drugs are abused by a minority of those on welfare because there really is no possibility that they can see for getting back into society?

Comradely
Red-Fred

[BearBitesHurt]

Bro, I've worked with the public long enough.  When I was a teenager I was personally annoyed by people who were living off of the government arguing with me on the subject of why they couldn't buy cigarettes with their food stamps.

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Had the thought possibly arisen that it may be that people receiving welfare become stuck in a rut because, throughout their entire lives, the system has failed them? First education, then employment. Could it be, and I know this may be hard to accept, that substances such as cigarettes, alcohol and in some cases illegal drugs are abused by a minority of those on welfare because there really is no possibility that they can see for getting back into society?

Everyone in the world has problems.  Some people have a modicum of pride in themselves, or at least enough resolve to succeed in life that they manage to live without government interference.  I worked two jobs for 3 years and still couldn't afford everything I needed for my family.  Scumbag, sorry excuses for human beings who didn't have any jobs at all were receiving government assistance for things that I didn't qualify because I made "too much money."

Specifically, I was working two jobs and we realized that we weren't going to have quite enough money to heat the house over the winter.  I applied at the town office for Heating Assistance and was denied because I made too much money, even though after I had paid my car payment and mortgage I was broke.  The vermin living on Town Assistance were getting Heating Assistance as well as having their rent and utilities paid while they do nothing but smoke cigarettes and watch Maury all day.

The idea of welfare is a good one, but without proper regulation it is abused.

But let's not follow FMGs red herring any further please.  This is supposed to be about guns.

[The GrimSqueaker]

But let's not follow FMGs red herring any further please.  This is supposed to be about guns.

Yeah. Like I mentioned recently. Anything more will just be deleted. Same with the flaming.

Cut this amphetamine parrot out now.

[coredump]

Rummy: I have re-written my post, and believe I have managed to call out FMG for statements, without delving into personal matters.

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I got about halfway through a long, point by point response, but it just doesn't matter. Everytime I respond, FMG changes his story.

Look, I get it. You really like socialism. You really think US citizen are asshats that don't care about anyone else. You really hate just about everything the US does, and how they do it. I get it. We suck, you rock. Okay.

You want to discuss FEMA, and how you *think* they are a private organization, start a new thread.
You want to discuss how you *think* the US and India are exactly the same, start a new thread.
You want to discuss how the US welfare system isn't *really* welfare, start a new thread.
If you *really* think there is no way for a poor US student to go to college, start a new thread.
If you really think all the "so called doctors" in the US are "Callous", start a new thread.
If you really think the US has no drug rehab/community outreach/etc programs, start a new thread.
If you really think the US school system sucks, start a new thread.
If you really think the US doesn't support charity, I have already started a new thread, feel free to join it.
If you really think "Socialism is a charity", then please start a new thread.

I mean it, I would *love* for you to start some new threads, because I think you are full of crap on all of these, and would love a chance to prove it. But I don't want to assist you in your attempts to derail this from a gun control issue to a "FMG love socialism and hates the US" thread.


As for the Gun control issues....

No because the Gun Ban has to come with certain other changes. For example better living wages and so on.

I get it, you think socialism will solve the problems. Okay.  Now, do you have anything to indicate that a gun ban will help solve the problems. If socialism will mostly stop the crime problem, then we can have socialism *and* guns.

So please, answer the question.
Do you have any evidence that a *gun ban* will help?

Do you have Volcano Insurance? Honestly how many crazy home invasions for the purpose of rape and murder happen?

No, but I am *allowed* to have volcano insurance. I am allowed to judge for myself if volcano insurance is a good idea or not.
And as we have seen, assaults, rapes, burglaries, etc are not totally unheard of. It is not a 'Baghdad war zone', and I can make it to the corner store without a kevlar vest and air cover. But I can also do it safely with a concealed weapon. And on the rare, but possible, chance that something does happen, I can help defend and protect myself and others.
You are not able, nor willing, to guarantee bad things won't happen. the police are not able, nor willing, to guarantee bad things won't happen. The police are not able, nor willing, to guaranteed they can even respond in time to help, let alone prevent anything.
So I want the right to be able to help, and prevent bad things from happening.

I would want that right in a socialist country also.

Yes. Because see people never think they are going to be sick. Do you have a sickness fund? Is it say big enough to afford dialysis for years? Thought not. Most poor people have no access to those things.

We are discussing criminals remember. So, it is your assertion that a decent percentage of criminals are created because they can't afford it when they get sick? Really?
While this *may* happen, I see nothing to support it being a major factor.



Now, I want to address a few things you have said. I have addressed them previously, but you seem to keep glossing over them. I want to see if you have the guts to deal with these.

1) You said "There are around 200,000 non fatal shootings in the USA by ACCIDENT per year."  Your own link doesn't support that. Do you still stand by this assertion?

2) You said "Your accidental death rate due to guns is higher than the actual MURDER rates of a fair few countries"
It has been shown that it is only higher than *1* country. Do you still stand by this assertion?

3) You said "These are gun injuries caused by legal guns in private hands. So no cops (who I am against arming), no military and no illegal weapon injuries." Now, aside from the number being way off. You have not presented any supporting evidence that the (incorrect) number is as you claim. Do you still stand by your assertion?

4) When asked to present a case of a legal gun owner and a crime of passion, you said "Virginia Tech for example... The shootings at Columbine were carried out with legal guns? Most high profile rampages." It has been shown that the guns were not legally obtained. Do you still stand by your assertion?

5)You said "Name one thing the US has done to outreach to the people who commit crimes the most? The poor and the people who are addicted to drugs? It does not." (emphasis mine) While I did not provide the link, I showed you how you could easily get the information.  (Or do you need me to link to the google searches for 'community outreach" and "drug rehab") Do you still stand by your assertions?

6) When discussing US citizens, you said "The average joe thinks guns will keep him safe so they don't care about their fellow man." (emphasis mine) I have shown that US citizens are many times more likely to volunteer time for charity work, and will donate *much* more money (even ignoring the 63% of donations that go to religious organizations.). So, do you still stand by your assertion that the average american doesn't care about their fellow man?


Now, these are just the ones that have been shown to be false. I haven't even gotten into the claims you make with no supporting evidence
Do you know how easy it is to make a mistake with a gun?
the difference between civilian and criminal with a gun is non existent.
the average US citizen deals with their problems with violence.(one of my favorites)
Good luck watching a handful of people with carry permits try and take down a criminal. More than likely you are going to get people shooting at each other AND/OR making a situation worse.
Etc etc

[coredump]

Why citizenship? Currently, in the states I've researched, one only needs to be a legal resident.

Sorry, wasn't clear.

Those were the three 'headings' I could think of that would need to be checked. But I can see there being leeway in them. For instance, maybe not all felons would need be denied a permit, or perhaps some misdemeanors would; at least for a time period.

Same with citizenship, perhaps it takes full, perhaps a legal resident, perhaps....

There may even be more issues to check, but Criminal History, Mental Health, Citizenship were the three I could think of.

[Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)]

A quick primer:

Be succinct.  If you want to be heard, especially in your entirety, realize that no one reads manifestos.

Whenever referring to "millions" or "at least 100 years ago," use a credible source.  Imaginary figures should convince no one, regardless of the volume indicated.

No one cares.  It may seem like the Most Important Issue Ever, but it's detrimental to work into a frenzy trying to illuminate the ignorant masses.

Look, I get it. You really like socialism. You really think US citizen are asshats that don't care about anyone else. You really hate just about everything the US does, and how they do it. I get it. We suck, you rock. Okay.

Thread will be locked for a bit.  Time out kids.

[The GrimSqueaker]

During lockdown people can take the time to read this:
A recent debate as to whether guns reduce crime (10/2008).

Many of us will recognise the names of those involved as well as the statements thrown about.

Nuclear weapons in war. What was, could have been, and what we're better off they didn't.