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The Armies of 40k => Chaos Armies (Marines and Daemons) => Topic started by: Daionosis on July 17, 2005, 04:04:35 PM
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I checked this board today, and was rather surprised I found so many 1k Sons threads on it, but nonetheless I still want to post my list here, which i made up today, after some carefull pondering after I saw the 4th ed rulebook which said the "slow and ponderous"-rule allowed the Sons to keep their original initiative of 4.
here's the list, it's supposed to be rather manoeuvrable, and still has enough shooting/close combat power.
HQ
Lieutenant, MoT, WoC, Darkblade, Disc, personal icon frags and boltpistol. - 132 points
lieutenant, Mot, BoC, Disc, powerweapon, frags and boltpistol. - 132 points
Two HQ choices stay, they're here for fluff reasons (one is male, the other female) one has BoC to get some high BS anti tank power, and the other has WoC because it rocks. the personal icon is there because I had points left, and they can us it to summon their personal meatshield of Screamers. I could have given D strength to the second lieutenant, but due to her being feminine I decided against it, as she already has S4, which, in the 40k world, is high for females.
ELITES
5 Rubric terminators, including an Aspiring Champion, with daemonic strength and GoC. 253 points
I noticed these guys now rock, they keep their I4 and get powerweapons to boot! the champion has GoC because it's a funny power, and a good one, and he has DS because I found out that S4 never kill enough enemy space marines. they are also dead hard to kill as they have 9 wounds!
TROOPS
9 Thousand Sons, including an Aspiring Champion with thrall, powerfist, Doombolt and boltpistol. - 251 points
riding in a Rhino, with extra armour and smokes. - 58 points
9 Thousand Sons, including an Aspiring Champion with teleport homer, 1 thrall, power weapon, Daemonic strength and Doombolt. - 261 points
speaks for themselves.
FAST ATTACK
7 screamers. - 105 points
they are here to keep my independent characters safe. they will be joined by them if they can (not sure if it's legal) and if nothing else they will ensure they can't be shot when the characters stay within 2 inch. if some survive to assault with, it's a bonus.
HEAVVY SUPPORT
Dreadnought, twin-lascannon, extra armour, smokes. - 133 points.
predator, all lascannons, daemonic possession - 165 points.
my anti tank powers.
models: 30 + 3 vehicles.
wounds: 54 + vehicles.
any comments?
cheers, Daionosis Rove
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Lieutenant, MoT, WoC, Darkblade, Disc, personal icon frags and boltpistol. - 132 points
Because this Lieutenant already has a weapon to shoot with, I would remove the Bolt Pistol for an Extra Close-Combat weapon. Unless I'm mistaken, and the Bolt Pistol already counts as one, so my brother informs me.
lieutenant, Mot, BoC, Disc, powerweapon, frags and boltpistol. - 132 points
I actually would give this Lieutenant Daemonic Strength. It will allow her to have more power in Close Combat, which will also be beneficial if she runs into any big bad Independent Characters on your enemy's side, which she most likely will, as she's geared towards that anyways.
I could have given D strength to the second lieutenant, but due to her being feminine I decided against it, as she already has S4, which, in the 40k world, is high for females.
Strength 4 is not high for Daemonically Enhanced females. Hence the name "Daemonic Strength."
TROOPS
9 Thousand Sons, including an Aspiring Champion with thrall, powerfist, Doombolt and boltpistol. - 251 points
riding in a Rhino, with extra armour and smokes. - 58 points
9 Thousand Sons, including an Aspiring Champion with teleport homer, 1 thrall, power weapon, Daemonic strength and Doombolt. - 261 points
I wouldn't use Doombolt on these squads, unless you were planning on them stearing clear of the enemy in assault through the whole match. I wouldn't recommend doing that, because it can leave gaps open in your front lines, which would cause the enemy to get into your models in your back lines, which would then be your Thousand Sons. To combat this, take Wind of Chaos. It will take out more models than Doombolt if you get within the 8" long range of that Flamer Template.
9 Thousand Sons, including an Aspiring Champion with thrall, powerfist, Doombolt and boltpistol
I'd give him Daemonic Strength, too.
9 Thousand Sons, including an Aspiring Champion with teleport homer, 1 thrall, power weapon, Daemonic strength and Doombolt. - 261 points
And give him a Power Fist and Bolt Pistol.
7 screamers. - 105 points
Furies are better. Exchange the Screamers for Furies. Trust me, they'll make a better meatshield and will have the extra needed striking power in assault.
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More Thousand Sons! Most Excellent! You need to come to the 2007 Baltimore Grand Tournament so we can make it a year of Tzeentch! The more who come, the better the chances of one of us winning the top prize! ;)
On to the list!
Lieutenant, MoT, WoC, Darkblade, Disc, personal icon frags and boltpistol. - 132 points
Hate to say it, but your LT is illegal. They're only allowed 50pts worth of Demonic gear, and the Dark Blade and Disk total 55. It's a tough choice really, but Dem Str and a Power weapon is almost as good, with no LD tests after you kill stuff.
Lieutenant, Mot, BoC, Disc, powerweapon, frags and boltpistol. - 132 points
Will echo the above person, Demonic Str wouldn't hurt.
How about one on a disk for shooty, and one with demonic Speed for assault? The Speed char can advance with the bulk of your force, and then pop out and assault...
but due to her being feminine I decided against it
Careful who you say that to. I know some female players who would not be...thrilled.
[/quote]5 Rubric terminators, including an Aspiring Champion, with daemonic strength and GoC. [/quote]
Deep striking, yes? Warp Focus might be good for the Champ, as then he could extend the distance for Gift...that way you dont' have to land 2" away from someone.
As for the Thousand Son squads, the one in the Rhino is fine (Wind of Chaos might be better, but that's just personal preference) but I would do bolt for the walking unit. I don't under stand everyone who says WoC for walking units...you'll be spending turns walking across the board no using the power, and you have to be lucky enough to not get assaulted to get withing 8" to use it. That's why I like WoC on Rhino units, that way they can move up, jump out, Wind and Rapid Fire...
7 screamers.
You're a brave man. You know that they don't have Hit and Run, as in the rulebook, yes? Their ability is different, and worse. But I see why you have them as a cover for your Characters...Which is legal for them to join.
Also, while furies are better, he can't take them. He would only have Icons of Tzeentch, and you need an Undivided Icon to summon Furies...
Dreadnought, twin-lascannon, extra armour, smokes.
Demonic Possession is good for Dreads...With limited AT, you don't want to miss a turn of shooting.
predator, all lascannons, daemonic possession - 165 points.
A staple in any Thousand Sons army, for certain. Got one myself. :)
Just some thoughts...in the end, it's what you want to field.
Das DevilSquid
"Spare Change for the Lord of Change!"
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Also, while furies are better, he can't take them. He would only have Icons of Tzeentch, and you need an Undivided Icon to summon Furies...
1. Daemons are unmarked.
2. Screamers are of Slaanesh. Flamers and Horrors are of Tzeentch.
Hate to say it, but your LT is illegal. They're only allowed 50pts worth of Demonic gear, and the Dark Blade and Disk total 55. It's a tough choice really, but Dem Str and a Power weapon is almost as good, with no LD tests after you kill stuff.
I don't believe Discs of Tzeentch count as Daemonic Wargear. They count as a Steed.
predator, all lascannons, daemonic possession - 165 points.
I'd give this Predator Corruscating Warp Flame, now that I think of it. You have to if this is a Thousand Sons list and not a Tzeentch list. There is a difference.
Dreadnought, twin-lascannon, extra armour, smokes.
He needs Corruscating Warp Flame, too. Not only that he might have to have it, but because anyone who would shoot him or strike him in assault takes a Strength D6 AP4(?) hit. This can be lethal against Orks and Eldar. I'm not so sure about Tyranids, but probably.
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1. Daemons are unmarked.
2. Screamers are of Slaanesh. Flamers and Horrors are of Tzeentch.
You are incorrect sir, on both accounts.
1. Check page 12 under 'Demon Summoning', bottom paragraph.
2. In the entry for Demonic Beasts, it says 'Screamers of Tzeentch'.
I don't believe Discs of Tzeentch count as Daemonic Wargear. They count as a Steed.
All Gifts of the Gods (barring psychic powers et al) count as demonic gifts (Page 16, upper left hand, bottom of the 'Limits' paragraph)
I'd give this Predator Corruscating Warp Flame, now that I think of it. You have to if this is a Thousand Sons list and not a Tzeentch list. There is a difference.
There's no real use for the Predator to have Warp Flame, as it shouldn't be getting close to the enemy. Plus, if you're doing a Thousand Sons army, you don't have to have the vehicle dedicated (page 61, 3rd bullet under'Playing a Thousand Sons army).
He needs Corruscating Warp Flame, too. Not only that he might have to have it, but because anyone who would shoot him or strike him in assault takes a Strength D6 AP4(?) hit. This can be lethal against Orks and Eldar. I'm not so sure about Tyranids, but probably.
I agree 100%. Dreadnaughts do wonders with Warp Flame, but it only works against models in CC with it (not shooting). The great thing about the Warp Fire is that it hurts them before they attack, so even if they have you been on initiative, you get a decent chance of hurting everyone in CC...I've seen one Naught go through a horde of orks like butter...and now, with being able to hit everything within 2", it gets worse (I say 2" because of the Kill zone, where models in 2" can attack you).
D-DS
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Hate to say it, but your LT is illegal. They're only allowed 50Pt's worth of Demonic gear, and the Dark Blade and Disk total 55. It's a tough choice really, but Dem Str and a Power weapon is almost as good, with no LD tests after you kill stuff.
oh, I knew I was forgetting something! then I'll edit the list and give him a powerweapon and D strength.
I agree 100%. Dreadnaughts do wonders with Warp Flame, but it only works against models in CC with it (not shooting). The great thing about the Warp Fire is that it hurts them before they attack, so even if they have you been on initiative, you get a decent chance of hurting everyone in CC...I've seen one Naught go through a horde of orks like butter...and now, with being able to hit everything within 2", it gets worse (I say 2" because of the Kill zone, where models in 2" can attack you).
I agree that they could be very deadly to most troops, but the upgrades expensive,and I don't have the points left.
Deep striking, yes? Warp Focus might be good for the Champ, as then he could extend the distance for Gift...that way you don't' have to land 2" away from someone.
yup, they'll deepstrike, I thought about warpfocus, but I decided it to be too random to be worth it's points, also, I'm not really counting on them killing their target's in one turn, so I was expecting to use this in close combat, as the codex said it could be. I'm thinking of dropping this power though, and replace it with something else, but I'll first try this on the battle field before shooting it down.
one thing I'd love to use instead of this unit is a unit of chosen terminators, with the mark of tzeentch, and then give four of them BoC... that's be awesome, and I'd use it if it wouldn't cost 350 points!
How about one on a disk for shooty, and one with demonic Speed for assault? The Speed char can advance with the bulk of your force, and then pop out and assault...
could work, but I really want my characters to operate together. IMHJO they'll be able to kill just about anything, and the screamers will protect them. I'm counting on the dreadnought to deliver some CC nastiness, should he survive that long.
You're a brave man. You know that they don't have Hit and Run, as in the rulebook, yes? Their ability is different, and worse. But I see why you have them as a cover for your Characters...Which is legal for them to join.
Also, while furies are better, he can't take them. He would only have Icons of Tzeentch, and you need an Undivided Icon to summon Furies...
thanks for the comment on braveness :P
yes I know they suck, I also know furies are way better, and no I'm not counting on them to do anything. their job is just to be a cheap meatshield for my characters (also why I have 7, 'cause 7+2 = 9). if any survive shooting, I'll be a happy man, but I still wouldn't count on them doing anything. the biggest thing I don't like about them is their insane amount of $ they cost. eight euros per model, that's too high, IMHO.
about all the other changes, I'd like to use many of them, but where do I find the points?
More Thousand Sons! Most Excellent! You need to come to the 2007 Baltimore Grand Tournament so we can make it a year of Tzeentch! The more who come, the better the chances of one of us winning the top prize!
I live in The Netherlands, so that'll be hard, but 2007? I can try :D
cheers, Daionosis Rove
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I do not see Bolt of Change. You need to stock up on those guys.
Maybe the autocannon for the predator, for more anti-tank shots.
Drop the screamers.
Give the termie champ a Warp Focus.
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I do not see Bolt of Change. You need to stock up on those guys.
You know, Bolt of Change isn't the best psychic power there is. Each psychic power gives a different use for a different situation. Let him figure out which one works best for him.
Maybe the autocannon for the predator, for more anti-tank shots.
He has all Lascannons on his Predator. That will surely do better than two Lascannons and an Autocannon.
2. In the entry for Demonic Beasts, it says 'Screamers of Tzeentch'.
Ah, I got Daemonic Beasts and Daemon Packs confused.
I agree 100%. Dreadnaughts do wonders with Warp Flame, but it only works against models in CC with it (not shooting).
Mind giving me a quote on that? I don't have my codex with me this exact moment.
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Bolt of Change is, IMO, the best power for Tzeentch players, as it has the ability to take out anything. The predator configuration I suggest saves him points, as well as giving him 4 shots as opposed to 3. Sure, they are not all lascannons, but with bolt of change in the squads, he doesn't need it.
Wnd of Chaos should only be given to things that are not affected by the difficult terrain move.
Warp Flame works only against those in CC, not shooting, it is in the codex.
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Warp Flame works only against those in CC, not shooting, it is in the codex.
Mind telling me where in the codex? And quote it?
Wnd of Chaos should only be given to things that are not affected by the difficult terrain move.
Why?
Bolt of Change is, IMO, the best power for Tzeentch players, as it has the ability to take out anything. The predator configuration I suggest saves him points, as well as giving him 4 shots as opposed to 3. Sure, they are not all lascannons, but with bolt of change in the squads, he doesn't need it.
So does Wind of Chaos, so does a Lord with Stature and a Dreadaxe. It doesn't make them any "better" than the rest of them. Wind of Chaos will eat through enemy infantry. Bolt of Change would do good in this army if the female Lieutenant had a movement mode, which she does. But in squads that are relatively slow moving, like his Thousand Sons, you can count on the enemy reaching them before the Thousand Sons reach the enemy. In which case, Wind of Chaos, that has the capabilities to remove 5 models would be better than Bolt of Change, that can only remove one model.
they are not all lascannons, but with bolt of change in the squads, he doesn't need it.
Tell me, which is more effective: 3 Lascannons that have the capabilities to destroy any vehicle, where one of them can re-roll a miss, or 2 Lascannons that have the capabilities to destroy any vehicle, and 1 Autocannon that has the ability to destroy most vehicles? The former.
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To quote it exactly is an IP volation, it's in the section of the warp flame entry.
Bolt of Change is the best power as it can hurt anything in the game, as opposed to WoC, which can only hurt 'living' things.
Wind of Chaos is useful, but any experienced player will be able to plan things right, and charge you without you firing a shot of WoC. Simply because it has a 8 or 10" range. With the slow moving of TS rubrics, it is quite difficult to get into the range, so you have to depend on your opponents to get into CC. While TS excel in CC due to large number of wounds and hidden powerfist, haing them charge the opponent has, in my own experience, proved quite difficult as they move in difficult terrain. So you are exposed to the enemy's heavy weapons if you do not make the charge. It is not difficult to maintain a 10" distance, and most opponents will do that, denying the WoC.
As for the Pred, you get 4 shots. 2 Lascannon is enough to destroy most vehicles, but with 4 shots you can possibly kill other things, like lighter vehicles, monstrous creatures, or something else, not to mention it is cheaper.
Aronious, you seem to be very stubborn in this matter, so I am not going to argue with you. I know what is more effective for me, and I am suggesting it. If you disagree, I could not care less.
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Aronious, you seem to be very stubborn in this matter, so I am not going to argue with you. I know what is more effective for me, and I am suggesting it. If you disagree, I could not care less.
I'm not being stubborn. Usually, when someone is stubborn, they are offensive as well. I just won't be suade very easily.
Bolt of Change is the best power as it can hurt anything in the game, as opposed to WoC, which can only hurt 'living' things.
You could say that. Let's both agree that both powers have different purposes and different uses. Thusly, depending on the circumstances, Wind of Chaos and Bolt of Change may or may not be good.
It is not difficult to maintain a 10" distance, and most opponents will do that, denying the WoC.
Granted, but your opponent does not always know what psychic power you have, and will not always be thinking to stay 10" away from your lines.
As for the Pred, you get 4 shots. 2 Lascannon is enough to destroy most vehicles, but with 4 shots you can possibly kill other things, like lighter vehicles, monstrous creatures, or something else, not to mention it is cheaper.
Essentially, a Twin-Linked weapon is two shots. But that's not the point. The amount of shots with one combo or the other doesn't matter, because it only takes one to destroy a vehicle utterly. Besides, the same weaker armor vehicles that you would destroy with an Autocannon could still be taken out with a Lascannon. The Lascannon would just do a better job of it. Regardless, in an army with only one Predator, The Lascannon sponsons and an Autocannon are the better combo. In fact, it's what I use.
any experienced player
It takes a largely entended amount of time to become experienced with Chaos.
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I am not completely saying no to Wind of Chaos, mind you. I use 2, on my flying lieutenants. It's a power that needs good placement, unlike the BoC. The rubrics move way too slow to make the most out of it.
Also, I never thought of you as offensive, and stubborn is nothing negative. Remember the DA. ;)
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Ah, nothing like a nice debate to stir things up. As long as it's all friendly.
As for Warp Fire, the clarification for it is in the description for Coruscating Warp Flame in the Book of Tzeentch. Unfortuantely, i don't have my codex on hand at this moment, so I'll have to check back tomorrow with better wording. It's along the line of "Before an enemy model attacks, it takes a yadda yadda". Again, that's not the exact wording, but I know it specifies assaults. If it was with shooting, that would be WAY too powerful.
Bolt of Change is good for units that are going to be staying away from the enemy and shooting. Wind of Chaos is good for fast moving unit that will be able to get within 8" to slap the template down. They're both strong, but for different purposes.
Personally, I don't like giving WoC to walking units, as it's hard to position them to get the template down before assault, plus you're wasting shooting opportunities walking forward to get into range.
For the Predators, All Lascannon is the best bet for Tzeentch. Sure, they have the BoC as a back up, but I would rather punch a Space Marine from his feet with that then waste 8 bolter shots while the champ shoots a tank. But it's nice to have just in case.
Daionosis: Don't worry, i haven't forgotten about you. :)
The LT: Yeah, while the Dark Blade would be better for the Str boost, the power weapon/Dem Str will be 'as good'. You could make him a lord to give him the blade, but that'd be more points.
Terminators: Yeah, scrounging for points is a favorite hobby of Tzeentch. ::) I only suggested the Warp Focus so that they have a chance of doing something before being assaulted (aside from bolter death). If you went with a unit of Chosen Terminators, give them Gift of Chaos, and start pumping out Chaos Spawns. Heck, just a unit of Chosen in a Rhino, all with Gift of Chaos...drive up, jump out, and turn people into spawn! Give them some thralls just because. (Hmm, 5 Chosen, 4 thralls...) Anyway.
Screamers: Ok, have a better idea of what you want to do with them. But since they're summoned, they may not show up when you want them. Also, since they have to flee at the end of combat, they could leave your characters high and dry in Close Combat. It's a real shame that Tzeentch doesn't have something else that it could use like that...
I live in The Netherlands, so that'll be hard, but 2007? I can try :D
cheers, Daionosis Rove
That's ok, I'm in Okinawa, Japan, and I'm hoofing it over there. :)
Go Go Tzeentch!
D-DS
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I never even bother with WoC on rubrics. Just because they are in Rhinos doesn't warrant WoC. They still can't be sure to assault properly.
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It's along the line of "Before an enemy model attacks, it takes a yadda yadda". Again, that's not the exact wording, but I know it specifies assaults.
Which printing of the codex do you have? See, I have the first.
If it was with shooting, that would be WAY too powerful.
Not really, since it wouldn't be able to harm tanks with armor of 13 or 14. Which is also the front armor of most tanks.
Actually, I think giving one Wind of Chaos would be good for your Terminators. Since they're already going to be close to the enemy, and they can still shoot after they've deepstriked.
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It's a real shame that Tzeentch doesn't have something else that it could use like that...
they can its GoC and a dozen spawns per turn (good for character hunting too)
On that note I would drop your demons and get two retiune for your HQ. GoC all around and you have a massing force waiting to happen.It will cost 376 points though This tactic works good for me because they don't know what I have as a power and by the time they find out I have turned their C'tan in to my love slave :-*
As for Warp Fire, the clarification for it is in the description for Coruscating Warp Flame in the Book of Tzeentch. Unfortuantely, i don't have my codex on hand at this moment, so I'll have to check back tomorrow with better wording. It's along the line of "Before an enemy model attacks, it takes a yadda yadda". Again, that's not the exact wording, but I know it specifies assaults. If it was with shooting, that would be WAY too powerful
Yes the WF is roll at the start of close combat and results are calculated before anything else (in effect a I10) You maybe confusing Living vehicle which, while simular, results of the rolls and results are done during the shooting phase.
Ok now for this Psi power debate. There is a simple way to think of the powers to get the right one.Class them as heavy weapons for your squad.
BoC=Multi-Melta. The only way for CSM to get this weapon. same range and damage and your just exchanging the AP 1 for an Assualt 1
WoC=Heavy flamer. Well it is better against horde forces then armor but it is better than a flamer
Doom Bolt=Heavy bolter w/suspensor unit ala DeathWatch
GoC and Mass Mutant are in a class of their own.
Tactic are the same as for these weapon except that you don't have to stop and shoot :)
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Double checked the Info on Warp Flames, and it is a bit vague. It does say when a model attacks, it gets a hit from the Flames. But then that entales what constitues an attack? There's no reference to the work attack in the shooting phase info, but there is in the Assault Phase.
Personally, I think it's only in the assault phase. Otherwise, you'd be killing heavy weapon troopers before they had a chance to hit you...and I don't think the gargoyles breathing fire on the Dreadnaught have a 48" range...
just my .02c
D-DS
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It's just like in the old edition.
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just to kill this warp flame thing here it is from the GW forum
Comments on Coruscating Warp Flame by Andy Chambers:
And if it looks too good to be true then its probably not true. The term attacks can be used a bit flexibly at times, but in this context its very specifically close combat Attacks, and yes that would include any unfortunates dragged into fire-breathing gargoyle range (close combat that is) because sarge wants to take a pop at it with a power fist or whatever.
here (http://us.games-workshop.com/membership/eshare.pl?do=ShowArticle&BoardID=4&ID=2912502)
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Oh yeah, another thing, I think WF also works on Death or Glory attacks as it is technically a close enough attack. Or is there a rule that I am missing?
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IWwSA: I would agree with you on the Death or Glory being affected by the Warp Fire. But you can also shoot in Death or Glory...Hmm, ponder ponder.
Kenaz: Good info, thanks. As I suspected.
D-DS
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Well D by G is in the Vehicle and assault rules and it does say 1 attack be it gun CCQ or grenades. But it does say that it automatically hits. Also D by G can only be done if the vehicle is doing a Tank shock move which means it must make contact. This may be a good tactic for WF as Tank shock is a movement thing and the effected unit move still be in cohesion and only move the shortest distance.
Tank shock,WF ,living vehicle, assault.
So WF vsD by G if D by G is done the attacker hits but then get flamed to death no matter what.