Topic: Do you think Wraithlords and starcannons should be nerfed

[Medic92]

I for one am worried about this.  I like to have one or two tough units with good fire power like most of the SMurf units that can actually take a few hits from SM heavy weapons or actually get into range to deal with tau rail guns.  I do not like to wait around for GW to nerf eldar units because (at least from what I have seen) eldar players actually know how to use tactics unlike SMurfs and "flavor of the month armies" that just want armies that will win all the time regardless of their actions and not requiring them to think at all.  In my opinion, I think that they should focus on "worthless" units in our army and make them usable again (i.e. swooping hawks).  Even with our Wraithlords and Starcannons our toughness and firepower is at best on par with SMurfs.


"To make lesser players equal you do not raise them up to the lofty postion at the top,  but instead bring the rest down."

[DanBZ]

Look in the EO Chapter Approved article for the direction a lot of us want to go.  You can find the article in Roy or 69Lazarus's signatures (look in the Eldar Player Ideas for Change thread).  We are not changing the Wraithlord at all, but the Starcannon is getting a points hike (switch the costs of the EML and SC).

[Galderon]

Look in the EO Chapter Approved article for the direction a lot of us want to go.  You can find the article in Roy or 69Lazarus's signatures (look in the Eldar Player Ideas for Change thread).  We are not changing the Wraithlord at all, but the Starcannon is getting a points hike (switch the costs of the EML and SC).

How on earth can GW justify a points hike for the Star Cannon?

[DanBZ]

The problem with the Starcannon is that it can do everything.  It fires enough shots to work on hordes, it has a high enough Strength to wound high Toughness troops and light vehicles, and it has an AP designed to kill armored infantry.  It's too good at everything, and therefore a bit overpowered for what you pay for it.

[Warlock Mischel]

Heck thee Starcannon took over the Missile Launchers job for a lower price.  If the Missile Launchers and Starcannon were the same points than I would use the Missile Launcher instead (in most cases).

[Joe_Dark]

what!!!??? under priced!???a lascanon costs a bleeping 15 points!!!!! is longer ranged and is protecdted bye a dang (insert stat line here, copyright...) marine!!!!

[DanBZ]

But a lascannon only fires one shot, and it can't fire on the move...

[reina1]

But a lascannon only fires one shot, and it can't fire on the move...

very true, and both can be had with a squad for about 40-45pts. Oh but the cheaper lascannon, while not being able to fire on the move hits 66% of the time, vs 50% per shot of the starcannon (average of one and a half hits per turn though with three shots). Oh and the lascannon hits at starcannon S+3, meaning that it can insta kill most everything that can be instakilled, as well as auto penetrate skimmers (most skimmers, like speeders, vypers, walkers on a 2+, back armour on almost all vehicles, and the monolith on 5's).
Yes, I'm well aware of some of the trade offs, but just pointing out that the star cannon is already a bit pricey.
To fix it, they ought to drop the points of the other guns, IMHO

[Istaril]

Do I think that Wraithlords should be nerfed? Not really. I think they should be made 0-1 (Wraithguard likewise) to reflect fluff and prevent cheesy usage, which is what most people object to. I mean, Venerable Dreadnoughts with Assault cannons are the flavour of the day for marines - and that's about the same cost as a WL w/starcannon. Which is better? Neither, not decisively, anyway - so I think they're fine as they are.

Should Starcannons be nerfed? Possibly - but I say this only because they have become the staple all-purpose 'only choice' weapon for most eldar forces. It's annoying as an eldar player to be forced to take Starcannons en masse to win (ok, not really forced to - most people think so though - I use 2 in 1700), and it's annoying to the opponents to face 6+ scs in your average eldar force.

Since, as many people have mentioned, the eldar have lost their niche in 40k (Guns? Tau. Ancient technology? Necron. Psykers? Marines... etc) - I feel a new one (subterfuge etc) should be sought after. Perhaps abilities such as units 'swapping places' (Guardians become useful aspect delivery systems!) instead of moving (Bonesigner escorts with warpgates? I dunno), 'false' cover (psychic power?), abilities that allow you to move the opponent's units (mirage?) - etc. Eldar lives are too valuable to throw at the enemy - with tricks etc to throw off the opponent and preserve every possible life. It's easy to picture this theme with every craftworld.

Alaitoc would fit in as exemplifying disruption - you have to hunt down units that can move accross the battlefield quickly, hide in cover, and your troops might start seeing things in other places.

Iyanden would remain slow and ponderous and solid - and it's few 'alive' units would be all the better protected by the wraiths - life is so valuable to the craftworld that every trick in the book would be used to keep the few that remain alive, wraithguard acting as buffers/take the blows for those that live (especially by swapping places for squads about to be assaulted, etc).


etc, etc, etc

[BrathaLir]

I would take the venerable Dread any day over the WL, and I play Iyanden.  The assault cannon is simply not to be underestimated in any situation.  The starcannon is nice, but I have terrible luck with mine.  I usually have much better rolls with scatter lasers (of all things). 

[Cypher037]

lets compair the assault caanon and the star cannon.

ACs move and fire(every thing that can use them nevver counts as moving)
ACs kill light vehicles(AC is better at this by a long shot, especialy w/ the higher bs)
ACs kill heavy infantry(star cannon is better at this)
ACs Kill light infantry(AC is beter at this due to more shots + higher BS)
ACs Kill MCs(SC and AC are about equal here)

so you tell me which is better?

and to get back on topic:
I don't think the WL should be nerfed, but I do think it should be made to resemble other MCs more.
it should:
gain a wound
lose 2 T
get a 2+ save

some say thats nerfing it, but it's what should happen. besides, I would rather have it be like this against everything but orks.

[BIGChris1313]

lets compair the assault caanon and the star cannon.

ACs move and fire(every thing that can use them nevver counts as moving)
ACs kill light vehicles(AC is better at this by a long shot, especialy w/ the higher bs)
ACs kill heavy infantry(star cannon is better at this)
ACs Kill light infantry(AC is beter at this due to more shots + higher BS)
ACs Kill MCs(SC and AC are about equal here)

But you forgot the most important thing: Assault Cannons are better at tank hunting than Lascannons, against the heaviest armor of AV13 and AV14.  If you don't believe me, run the numbers.  It's incredible.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

I think the problem with the starcannon is over rated.. Sure a marine can take a non moving lascannon for x points but the star cannon costs around 3 times the price for the ability to move 6". Also its a lot more expensive on anything that can take it. In retrospect an easy way to stop marines whining about it is to simply drop the strength of it by 1 and make all the other weapons worth their cost.

The day wraithlords are changed is the day the assault cannon loses that rending rule, marines lose their free psychic hood and pay more for scary power of scaryness... Wraithlords are very easy to bring down now. Everyone can bring it down in shooting. Most armies can bring it down in close combat. Even gaurd can if they go about it the right way... (Already lost a wound thanks to las cannon barrage, One wound from the commisar, a potential two wounds from being outnumbered by conscripts... Brilliant move by my opponent. And this was by a guy on his third 40k match)

Wraithlords were slightly overpowered, now they are just normal thanks to the collosal boost marines (the only army that whined about them)  got. Rending claws i can understand, but rending assault cannons? I wonder will the poor orks get rending grots just to keep up?

Also putting a restriction on the lord is silly. There are far more wraithlords out there than Dreadnoughts... (longer history and simply a lot more heroes and lord shells) Yet marines can field upto 6... For the purpose of game balance let them still be unlimited but heavy. Can anyone actually see a valid problem with these two weapons/ While we are at it nerf the heavy bolter. All it has to do is fire one round of shooting to make more than its points back.... (that last bit was a pet hate of mine. I could'nt resist)

Seriously though GW better take a look at what the entire armies supplied by them think about the star cannon before judging that it needs a nerfing.

[Although]

Also putting a restriction on the lord is silly. There are far more wraithlords out there than Dreadnoughts... (longer history and simply a lot more heroes and lord shells) Yet marines can field upto 6...

The Eldar field their Wraithlords reluctantly, mourning the fate which have led them to exploit these legendary warriors, lifting them from their graves to join the armies of the Craftworld in their time of dire need. When these legendary heroes vanish under the crumbling remains of the Wraithlord-shell they inhabited, the Eldar has lost a hero. Forever denied the peace of the infinity circuit, the hero becomes absorbed into the power of Chaos the Eldar gave birth to themselves; Slaanesh the prince of excess, bolstering his power and simultaneously highlighting doom amongst the myriad strands of fate, for all Farseers to perceive with fear, a future with Eldar life signs  is becoming all the more rare.

I wrote all of the (horribly cheesy) story above myself.

After reading that, it should come as no surprise that I find limiting the Wraithlord a good idea from an Eldar background perspective (but also from the perspective of balance; most armies have BIG problems with 3st T8 creatures without creating a list specifically for killing Wraithlords (and in so doing, becoming breakfast for most other armies or even the other part of the Eldar army with the 3 Wraithlords)).

[Lazarus]

Star cannons wouldn't need to be nerfed at all if 70% of the damn galaxy didnt't walk around wearing power armour.

If they limit the lord at all I hope they do not restrict it to 0-1 as it is unfair to the people that spent their hard earned money on the models and their time assembling and painting them. I have been through complete army nerfing before and it is not cool at all ( RT era imperial guard ).

Power gaming is a disease of the player and not the codex itself.


69Lazarus.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

Right the reason they should'nt be nerfed in more sensible words.

1. They are'nt hard to bring down a lot of weapons that do other things can bring them down.
2. Most marines and chaos can take a hidden power fist in a squad. Remember the new rules for unbreakable things? it follows them unfortunately so if you inflict a wound in close combat, it usually loses and loses a wound on top of its normal wound.
3. Even by fluff its a better use of the lord than having it sat around the craftworld while the living get whacked.
4. Dreadnoughts are also their mightiest of heroes and are'nt carted around in 6s. There probably is'nt even 6 working, awake dreadnoughts in any given chapter bearing in mind most dreads tend to sleep for ages and are a bit hard to wake up.
5. Sniper rifles can kill them. Railguns kill them rather too easily. Infact tau's entire army can possibly shoot the thing apart if they feel that way inclined.
6. Orks can't deal with them via shooting unless they take large numbers of rokkits but a ork nob can bring one down in cc.
7. They fulfill an important role in the eldar army as general gun platform.
8. Background wise a lot of things should'nt be seen in a 40k setting... claiming that as a way of constraining wraithlord numbers would mean a lot more things not turning up to the battle.
9.  Do you really want to see more souped up falcons?
10. 3 units of T8 being a problem. So does 6 marine dreads turning up. I don' think that most people carry that number of anti tank weapons to deal with all  of them without being shot into tiny bits. Eldar are seemingly lacking in the accuracy stakes to take so many anti tank weapons other than in specialised squads and storm squads.

Thats about it for defending the lord. Oh and except i thought that only if the soul stone is destroyed does the soul escape. The lord can be taken back for repairs and fight again, or the stone can be moved about (as i see it) Its just the fact that once its woken up it can't be reintroduced into the infinity thus forever trapped in the lord/ wraith. Kind of like the mini infinity ciruits of the titans, starships and indeed all vehichles of the craftworld.

[Although]

If they limit the lord at all I hope they do not restrict it to 0-1 as it is unfair to the people that spent their hard earned money on the models and their time assembling and painting them.

I agree. Something like this, i feel, would be appropriate:

Up to 1,000 points - maximum 1 Wraithlord;

1,001-2,000 points - maximum of 2 Wraithlords;

2,001-3,000 points - maximum of 3 Wraithlords.

1. They are'nt hard to bring down a lot of weapons that do other things can bring them down.
2. Most marines and chaos can take a hidden power fist in a squad. Remember the new rules for unbreakable things? it follows them unfortunately so if you inflict a wound in close combat, it usually loses and loses a wound on top of its normal wound.
3. Even by fluff its a better use of the lord than having it sat around the craftworld while the living get whacked.
4. Dreadnoughts are also their mightiest of heroes and are'nt carted around in 6s. There probably is'nt even 6 working, awake dreadnoughts in any given chapter bearing in mind most dreads tend to sleep for ages and are a bit hard to wake up.
5. Sniper rifles can kill them. Railguns kill them rather too easily. Infact tau's entire army can possibly shoot the thing apart if they feel that way inclined.
6. Orks can't deal with them via shooting unless they take large numbers of rokkits but a ork nob can bring one down in cc.
7. They fulfill an important role in the eldar army as general gun platform.
8. Background wise a lot of things should'nt be seen in a 40k setting... claiming that as a way of constraining wraithlord numbers would mean a lot more things not turning up to the battle.
9. Do you really want to see more souped up falcons?
10. 3 units of T8 being a problem. So does 6 marine dreads turning up. I don' think that most people carry that number of anti tank weapons to deal with all of them without being shot into tiny bits. Eldar are seemingly lacking in the accuracy stakes to take so many anti tank weapons other than in specialised squads and storm squads.

1.Yes, but if the enemy is wasting their, for example, Heavy Bolters on the slim chance of wounding a Wraithlord, he should, well, stop doing that.

2. Yes, Wraithlords and Dreadnoughts are affected by this (almost) equally (now).

3. You are taking a logical stance to some fluff, while ignoring the underlying motives of the Eldar (and inserting the motives of the player instead).

4. Yes, but Space Marines have different motivations and fears. If a commander wants 3 Dreads and has 3 dreads ready, there's nothing emotionally stopping him from using them. Dire need or not, it doesn't matter that much to SMs.

5. Yeah, but not effectively enough (if you're not Alaitoc of course). With BS3 most Railguns will probably fall before the firepower of the Wraithlords themselves before they can effectively take them out with 3 successful hits and to wound rolls.

6. 1 rockit luncha hit could kill a Dread, you'll need at least 3 hits to take down a Wraithlord. And in CC Dreads and WLs are almost equal in effectiveness, but I'd give it to the Wraithlord being more reliable with those 3 wounds.

7. I agree.

8. Wraithlords should be seen, but just not in any greater abundance in small-scale battles.

9. Why not try and balance both?

10. 6 marine dreads? Which army? Old Iron Hands IE maybe? Blood Angels?(which would probably not be vary effective at all, it's alot easier when the dreads aren't shooting AND moving towards your power claws) But they could still all be neutralised with 6 very lucky hits. 3 Wraithlords needs 9 lucky hits.

Oh and except i thought that only if the soul stone is destroyed does the soul escape.

You are entirely right, I wasn't accurate enough (but the peril of being lost itself is the big emotional wall hindering Eldar from using many WLs or WGs when they are not direly needed).

[Galderon]

@ Although: you are deliberatly over looking a few things. What the Star Cannon is to the marines the Heavy Bolta is to the Eldar-Should the Heavy Bolta be nurffed??
Hmmmm I didn't thing so.
As for the Wraith Lord- simple there are some things that a marine cannot kill with his bare hands, and the Wraith Lord is one of them. 

[Full Metal Geneticist]

Also you are forgetting that the dread can ignore a lot of hits from weapons like sniper rifles and plague swords and agonisers. It can also shrug of many effects of the penetrating table and still keep working. Infact on usual it needs more than 3 wounding hits to kill. And rending claws need to still roll to penetrate and can still be glanced of the armour unlike against a lord who normally takes a wound. I would say they are round about equal. Add the assault cannon to this and the whole thing balances out. Marines just normally avoid taking a powerfist in their squads which is down to their choice not the lord itself.

And am not saying heavy bolters ca kill it. But anything that works against a dread works against a lord. Oh and there are a lot more weapons that can hurt a lord reliably than a dread. Infact the lord is only stronger against melta weapons and grenades, when compared to assault cannons, necron gauss, Sniper Rifles, rending claws, agonisers and witch blades... The list goes on and on. Every army has something that can kill both of them reliably. People have got used to it. Eldar players complain about the monolith cause it just ignores their best anti tank weapons they have got while belonging to an army that seems designed to kill eldar. They have to take inefficient squads to hurt it or rely on the few singing spears that they got. Thats not going to be nerfed any time soon? And don't compare it to a dreadnought compare it to TMC. Yes they are lower toughness but they are alive and the lord is'nt. But they get better upgrades and are better at mashing tanks. Also its just generally marines who complain about the lord. Possibly cause they are too used to being good that they can't deal with not being the biggest fish in the sea.

[Nebulas]

I'll take each ponit seperately - Wraithlord the Starcannon.

The Wraithlord itself, I feel, is worth it's cost, seeing as it's heavy weapon is quite pricely, it's intital cost is balanced out by the sizable cost of it's primary weapon. I have on ever faced and field 1 Wraithlord, so I have no experience of people loading up on Wraithlords. I'd like to see the Wraithlord become a 0-1 choice and my reasoning for this is that 1 is acceptable, but I think it is a bit unfair to load up on them. I'd also like Iyanden to be exempt from that rule which would be very fitting. Incidentally, I'd like all the Craftworlds to become more "extereme" in their lists, such as Ulthwe Strike Force is (I nknow both Ulthwe lists are valid, by the way) as I feel that'd be far more fluffy, and it's give players more of a reason to go some of the more under-used Craftworlds, and for players to field Vanilla armies.

The Starcannon is largely overrated in my eyes. It is truly an awesome weapon, but no matter where you get it, it's always going to cost you at least 50 points, and for a large part of the time, that is at BS3. I think that players who suffer from "Starcannonphobia" have just looked at it's stat-line and decided it's "cheesy" (I don't believe in cheesy tactics, army lists, etc) and they have never actually gauged it's effectiveness in game. Sure it's got 3 shots, but with 1/2 of them hitting, and 1/6 of hits failing to wound, we're looking at a BS3 Starcannon killing 1 or 2 (if we're a little lucky) Marines a turn. Assuimng a 6 turn game, that'll kill at leats 90 points of Marines, provided of course that the Starcannon survives that long. They seem to ignore the fact that Shuriken Catapults bounce of their armour, and have lost one of their only advantges to boot!

Sadly, however, I think Games Workshop will side with the Marine players, and I think both the Wraithlord and the Starcannon will be getting a price increase, and if that is the case, then it is unlikely that I will field many in my army. (Incidentally, I don't actualy use that many Starcannons, I own 3 which are on various models, but have onyl ever fielded 2 in the same game)