Topic: Why do people think the Eldar are broken?

[The_Outcast]

Funny thing is though I have like 30 guardians 14 stormies 7 striking scorpions, my seer council is a HTH unit. I have a 4 reaper but I have not even used them. everyoen I play against with brings a liberian and most of the time I am figuring a way to get that whirl wind. I usually start fighting with an overall plan but my bad luck always screws it up somewhere and I die. Besides most of the amries I fight are smurfs so with my luck one shot form that scatter laser every turn. Shuriken cannons oh look my bolters are in range oh what happened to that guardian squad it died thats right. Get my point maybe his is just me and my bad luck and the fact that Most of the people I play against have more experiance than I do not to mention more money to buy new figures with. But now school is out and in a few eeks I will have my tau army painted and bought. Then I have some things I'd like to buy for my crons. then sure 3K of eldar wouldn't hurt. or a new bug army sounds good.

The_Outcast

[Pyroh]

I would say, that eldar are NOT broken at all.
I don't want to boast, but in last year I have not lost with my ulthwé list(and it is not because I didn't play a single game :-))
It is strong seer council, which gives fortune on itself + guardian squads and has augmented mind war(chance 168/169 that it will augment all mind wars, it is 5 farseers+11 warlocks)
+spiders with exarch -hit and run (power as well as tactics)
Two big (about16+2)squads of black defender guardians with starcannons
+2 wraithlords.

I think that the seer council will show, who is psyker here, because after few turns, there are no heavy weapons, no HQ and such things.

Yes, generally, some units listed above are too expensive (although I think that the guard is just good, maybe rise the cost to 45 and give them 2+ save)

In codex, there are strange things - why the save of that girl with Ld armor? There are 6*6=36 possibilities, she fails, when she rolls 12[6;6]
11[5;6] [6;5]
10[6;4] [5;5] [4;6]
That is 6 possibilities. So her chance to fail is 6/36=1/6=2+ invul save. And in time of the codex, there were no Pariahs to lower it.

And the Avatar is too weak I think. With his 5+ invul save, he is pushing up daisies a little too early.
Reapers...Lovely models, but the cost!!! When 5 men squad shoots at marines, they kill 4-5. When one devastator squad with heavy bolters shoots at reapers, they kill 6(only with HB, not counting bolters). OVERKILLLLLL.

And...in eldar army, you don't pay for units, but for possibilities of combination. Some SM guys say, guardians suck with their 5+ save, bolters smash it to pieces. Well, they are right. But give there warlock and now, it is, hey, those guardians aren't that bad. But let them re-roll it with fortune and you will hear:CHEEEEEEEEZY.
Spideys are a bit other case. Alone, they are great (in my opinion, I heard even they suck), but with hit and run...unbeliavable. When your opponent "catches" you with happy smile, you just jump away and tear him down.

[the solitaire]

it is indeed true that you can still make winning armies with the current eldar codex.
most important though is that those armies are based on a few different models. that unavoidably is the doom of the current eldar codex.

an alaitoc army using disruption and rangers will quite easily be mowed down when they meet a fast assault type army, assault type armies like biel-tan hardly manage against a chaos army like iron warriors.

most other armies manage to make a good allround list using some units that can fulfill multiple roles on the battlefield, eldar will not be able to do so. now this is one of the charms of teh eldar army, yet still, most of the information in the eldar codex is over 4 yearsof age and has not had a revision like for instance the dark eldar. some issues need to be looked at and maybe some things need correction to make certain units interesting to use in the current selection of codices.

i mean, who would nowadays field jetbikes where for the cost of a decent unit of those you can also field a complete aspect unit as well.

[Tory the Magnus]

Well first guys I would just like to say "Wow", I only posted this last night and we are already onto the 2nd page.

We obviously have lots of opinions on why the Eldar list is/isn't broken.  Although the majority do seem to think it has a number of problems.  So I would just like to put in my 2 cents.

I play Siam-Hann, and while I agree that our bikes and Shining Spears are over priced, this doesn't mean that you can't consistently win with a mainly Guardian Jetbike army list provided you use the right tactics.  To paraphrase Muhammed (sp?) Ali, "The enemy can't hit what their eyes can't see."

As to our pyskers not being the best anymore.  Well I say that our pyskers are totally different to SM and CSM pyskers.  Their pyskers have offensive powers and are basically just another weapon that requires a Ld test.  Whereas our pyskers are most useful as support units, and in this role they excel above all others.  I would never trade our current pysker powers for anything that the SM or CSMs have.

Sure the Devestators with Heavy Bolters could easily wipe out your unit of Dark Reapers, provided they were within 36" of course.  So why in the world would you have your Dark Reapers within 36" of that unit?  But if you absolutely have to, then stick them in cover with a Farseer with Fortune nearby and watch the enemy shots bounce of your cover save and realise in horror that they are going to get wiped out next turn.

Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees and Warp Spiders are all extremely useful against the right kind of enemy.  Certainly Banshees are probably the most useful since SM and CSM armies are extremely popular and thus very likely to be encountered, but that isn't a problem with the Eldar list, it is a problem with GW's marketing.


I don't play with the Avatar, Dire Avengers or Wraithguard so I can't comment on their usefulness.

Apart from the above can anyone give me a list of units that aren't regularly used?


People on this thread and in others have also said that Guardians don't fit the Eldar fluff, but Gav Thorpe specifically put the Guardians in the list to be fluffy   for this reason:

"I also wanted to re-establish the humble Guardian as the principle unit of a craftworld army. For me it's a matter of numbers more than anything else. The Aspect Warriors may be the best fighters on the craftworld, but they are few in number compared to the bulk of the Guardians, and hence most craftworld armies will have a sizeable proportion of Guardian squads and Guardian-piloted war engines."

So I don't see a problem with Guardians.

With regard to Solidataire's post about individual Eldar units being inflexible.  That is the whole point of the Eldar, it is who we are and what makes us different.  Now I have never played an Iron Warriors list but I would think that if a Biel-Tan army stuck all its Aspect Warriors in transports then the Iron Warriors wouldn't be a problem.  Same goes for when facing Tau.

It seems to me that the Eldar list is no where near broken, it just needs a tweak because it is so old and so much has changed.

[Zakalwe]

People on this thread and in others have also said that Guardians don't fit the Eldar fluff, but Gav Thorpe specifically put the Guardians in the list to be fluffy   for this reason:

"I also wanted to re-establish the humble Guardian as the principle unit of a craftworld army. For me it's a matter of numbers more than anything else. The Aspect Warriors may be the best fighters on the craftworld, but they are few in number compared to the bulk of the Guardians, and hence most craftworld armies will have a sizeable proportion of Guardian squads and Guardian-piloted war engines."

So I don't see a problem with Guardians.

Since half the people on the boards think that Gav is the cause of half the problems with Eldar quoting him aint gonna help

It's not so much that the guardians themselves are unfluffy it's that the end up being cannon fodder which is unfluffly. Lets face it, a squad of defenders is ablative for the gunners of that starcannon. If you give a squad a 12" base weapon and a 36" heavy weapon, the troopers become what you have to take to get the big gun.

I think that the codex is fundamentally broken. Not on a unit by unit basis but in its concepts.

 Eldar are a dying race whose technology is the most advanced in the galaxy. They do not die of natural causes, devote themselves to the path and have preternatural reflexes.

So given this how can these super fast aliens have BS3?
No specialised assault vehicles for their specialised assault aspects?
How can they be out "psyked" by marines? (not offensively, i mean how can a marine stop a farseer from doing what he wants most of the time).
High altitude skimmers that cant deepstrike?
The aspect of a war god that has a 5+ save!

Yes, i want the avatar to be the match of a bloodthirster in cc. Yes, i want deepstriking "assault ramp" serpents. Yes i would like vehicles that can actually hit a barn door! If i want a reasonably hard hq, an autarch springs to mind, the Avatar should everything apart from a bloodthirster running away. It should cost appropiately and not be available in small games.

I dont mind paying lots of points for these things, i dont actually want to take them all the time, but it would be really nice to have a codex where the fluff actually meshes with the lists that i can field.

+++ Rant over+++

[Tory the Magnus]

Ok, great points there Zakalwe, and I agree with a lot of them.  When you talk about the concept being broken I can really see what you mean, and adds a new dimension to why people think it is broken.

Just a couple of points.  The Eldar are no longer the most technologicaly advanced race in the galaxy.  We, at best, share it with Necrons and maybe Tau.

And, relfexes don't have a lot to do with your ability to shoot, that is mainly useful in close combat.

But the SMs being able to mess with our pyskic abilities is pretty messed up.

The Eldar list is fairly broken in terms of fluff and concept, I will agree with that, but I think the actual army list is good (perhaps in need of a tweaking).

P.S. You have to admire the guts it must take to be a soldier when you could otherwise live pretty much forever.

[Lazarus]

i love how all the time people say that the eldar are fine as is because they win with them all the time. i win with mine all the time too both in standard games and 4 consecutive RTT's but even i recognize the fact that the codex needs work. the PLAYER has alot to do with the list winning. when i see competitive lists at tourneys many of the eldar lists are the same with few variation.

what is broken is that the fluff doesnt fit the game for the eldar. a dying race shouldnt be represented by cheap horde style infantry with poor equipment. guardians really should be more like tau firewarriors.

i hope they do a complete overhaul of the eldar and try to capture the feel of wht it is to be eldar. i want to be able to dust off units that see little use and bring them to tourneys again. i want variety not simply what works against marines.

69Lazarus.

[The_Outcast]

Some one was told me this ,while I was telling how eldar don't fit thier fluff, " Thats why they are a dieing race". I looked at him and shoke my head. You can win with eldar just you have to use the right tactics and the right units with those tactics. It seem to me every other race matches its fluff,cept liberians they go beyond their fluff so bad that they are monsters.

Eldar are more adavnced tech. than every other race shot of necrons.

Eldar are abroken list because the fluuf does not fit thier list. The units that work are used and used again and again, because they work. When they work they are called "cheese". Why because they work better than the units of our enemies. Starcannon kills every thing. A heavy bolter won't kill a lot of 3+ armies like Crons. But you now what a lascannon will work quite well aainst a 3+ army like crons or CSM.  but if you bring a lascannon against foor slogging orks or so. Yeah you get the point. Well thesatrcannon works against everything. so why not take it.

The_Outcast

[Zakalwe]

Just a couple of points.  The Eldar are no longer the most technologicaly advanced race in the galaxy.  We, at best, share it with Necrons and maybe Tau.

In pure 40k terms, i agree but in terms of the whole background, no. The Necrons technology is very advanced but essentially static, but i agree it is at the same level or slightly beyond the eldar. As for the Tau? Not a chance. Just look at their spacecraft. Give them another century and maybe !

And, relfexes don't have a lot to do with your ability to shoot, that is mainly useful in close combat.

I agree that you could argue this for a sniper, but for a foot soldier faster reflexes means that you draw a bead faster, you settle faster and you react to target changes faster. And as for skimmers, well no contest there. Faster reflexes dont just mean that you can move faster, it also implies (for the eldar), a speed and agility of both mind and body that no other race can come close to.

The only problem with the army list is that in order to be competitive you have to field certain units. When the armies you see nearly always contain x and never y or z then the list is in trouble. It can be as simple as lowering the points on some units and raising them on others. Take the jetbikes, just lowering the points would sort them out, but since i can field a squadron of vypers for less than a unit of jetbikes why would i want to? The jetbikes suck in combat and a cheaper unit outguns them, it's a no brainer!

But at the end of the day we all moan about the list being broken, but carry on playing eldar which tells you something about why we play eldar. It aint for the winning is it?

[TheHippieTurtle]

we may or may not have the most advanced echnology in the game. Tau don't count at all. they play like they have good technology, but they don't even come close. Necrons... now they could definitely be more advanced. But they have technology that specializes in manipulating the physical universe, Eldar have technology that uses the warp/psychicness. it is difficult to compare because they are so different.
anyway, to bring the eldar back to what I see as fluff, their troopers need to be more like tau fire warriors (in relation to the rest of the army, not actual tactics). They need to get more wargear, cost more, and basically to keep them as the mainstay of our army, while removing their tendancy to fight and die using ork-like tactics. other fixes are needed, but this really isn't the place to adress them.

Eldar are broken because they are old. in reality, every army should get a new codex when a new edition of the game comes out, and they will, just in a prioritized order. The changes in rules, as well as in other armies tactics have made some Eldar units never used (Wraithguard, Shining Spears, Warwalkers, Jetbikes) and others over-used (Falcons, wraithlords, rangers). such changes are inevitable if you want GW to constantly modify, change, and hopefully improve the game. the problem with eldar though is that fluff to tactics, they are supposed to be fast, offensive, moderatley tough, and low numbers with strong technology, and above all, use their superior knowledge of the future to manipulate battles to their favor. they can do that now, but brute force tactics are easier, and necessary to resist other army's brute force tactics. I swear, I want to shoot the *person* who thought up psychic hoods. bah!
eldar are playable, but should definitely be next in line for a new codex

[murgel]

I would like to point to one more thing, supporting the fact that Eldar are broken, look at the armies played!
we see Ulthwe, USF, Biel-Tan, then nothing for long. Altaioc are few as arr vanilla and siam is about as rarely seen as the Yeti.
Sure Eldar are an army for the more capable player( mostly) but compared to what is offered its not only the Units but the lists as well that are unused to some extend.
As soon as a company notices a product is only scarcely sold this product is ended. And that is what we can see with parts of Eldar.
In 2nd ed. the shuricat war an awesome weapon, today its a bad joke compared to the other stuff around etc. etc. etc.
We need an overhaul, complet and soon or we will find less and less new Eldar players.
murgel

[Kage2020]

For me the 'fluff' is broken, partially as a result of requiring to conform to 'Thematic Army' concepts.  But that's just me.

Kage

[Fiffyfu]

The fluff is broken in my opinion, when i first got into warhamer i always thought that the eldar were "upper class" as so to speak, but now they seem more desperate and in the case of saim hann they are kina ferel.

[Satanic Joker Jester]

dark flame, what sort of eldar do you play? and i agree with the no starcannon thing, i was thinking of hacing a list without any at all, using MASS defenders and storm, and tough cc units like avatar + wratihlord, scorps and warp spiders

[Sildani]

Yes. Some aspects of the Eldar simply do not work the way they should. The units are overpriced, underpriced, or they just don't do what they ought to, such the Exarch of the Swooping Hawks being a close combat nightmare. These problems will be addressed. However, I agree with Gav. Guardians should be the bulk of your army - there simply are not enough skilled fighters to go around.  Yes, their guns are awful. They'll be fixed, or changed entirely - and no, they'll never get rending.

Necron and Eldar technology are roughly on par with each other. The Necrontyr embraced metal and tech to the exclusion of all else. Eldar strive for a fusion of material and mind. This is not germane to the thread, though.

Have patience. Marines got a great Codex. Then Tyranids have. Our time is coming. Soon...

[The_Outcast]

Yes. Some aspects of the Eldar simply do not work the way they should. The units are overpriced, underpriced, or they just don't do what they ought to, such the Exarch of the Swooping Hawks being a close combat nightmare. These problems will be addressed. However, I agree with Gav. Guardians should be the bulk of your army - there simply are not enough skilled fighters to go around.  Yes, their guns are awful. They'll be fixed, or changed entirely - and no, they'll never get rending.

Necron and Eldar technology are roughly on par with each other. The Necrontyr embraced metal and tech to the exclusion of all else. Eldar strive for a fusion of material and mind. This is not germane to the thread, though.

Have patience. Marines got a great Codex. Then Tyranids have. Our time is coming. Soon...

Yeah the orks thought that they were going to get a great codex and look their codex got postponed. What keep GW from doing the same to the eldar codex.

I hate gav to the extreme. I think he is an idiot. they way he wrote the codex I would slpa him if I got close enough him. He overpriced everything or made it stink. the things that aren't one of those two are called cheeze. and nothing in the codex matches the fluff.

The_Outcast

[Sildani]

Yeah the orks thought that they were going to get a great codex and look their codex got postponed. What keep GW from doing the same to the eldar codex.

Nothing. It's their call as to when to release Codices. I just think that our time is soon. After Templars? After Tau? I don't know. Probably before Alienhunters, though.

[Kage2020]

I hate gav to the extreme. I think he is an idiot. they way he wrote the codex I would slpa him if I got close enough him. He overpriced everything or made it stink.

Isn't this a tad on the extreme side?  He seems like a rather reasonable and amiable chappie if he sometimes misses the point or, like us all, sees his own approach as right in exclusion to others.  (He has the benefit of being able to enforce this 'rightness', though. )  That and what has been described as his SM 'fanboy-dom' and the resultant cludgey mechanics in Inquisitor... <sigh>  Other than that, though, he seems like a decent chap.  I'm sure if you raised the points on the GW rules development forum, or whatever, and offered means by which they could be fixed they would be more than ready to st... erm, utilise your ideas.

Then again I don't "do" the wargame side of things so perhaps I'm biased in that regard.

Kage

[Ulthwe Jester]

Reapers are not broken th are in fatc worthless.

i disagree with that totally, i played a 7000 point game yest along with a few mates, there was one unit of 5 reapers with a farseer guiding and fortuning them in cover. This unit lasted til the end of the game(they did however have to make one moral check) but they still killed off 2 units of crisis suits, one being worth roughly 350 points. Not a waste in my opinion.

[Eldrad Ulthraan]

Hi,

i have not read through this article on Eldar fully so please forgive me if i do not fully understand the debate.

I think that the Eldar are one of the strongest races ever seen in the 40k game and they have few races that can rival them and their technology.  Personally i think that the main problem with the Eldar is that their largest units such as Wraithguard are far too expensive.

I think that the army lists in the current codex are far from broken and all it turly needs is to be revised in terms of points values for the harder units such as Wraithguard and Psychic Powers for the Farseers and Warlocks.  It seems to me to be more of a problem that the people who say that "the army lists are broken" have than the people who actually have Eldar armies and i think thats because they dont fully understand how Eldar armies work and are expecting them to become much more tactically flexible in the future such as engineering a unit of Guardians into the equivical comparison of a unit of space marines with their heavy bolters and lascannons etc...

Personally i hope that if GW do revise the Eldar Army Codex then they wont do it until they have finished the Eldar Imperal Armour sections because then i think people will respect the true strenght of the Eldar and respect them once again for being one of the best armies in the 40k world.

lol, i'm having enough trouble finding the space to store my current Ulthwee army... god knows how im going to go on when i add a few Pheonix and Revenant Titans.