Topic: Why do people think the Eldar are broken?

[Tory the Magnus]

First things first.  I am very sorry if this has been asked before but for some reason when I tried to do a search for this topic it kept telling me that I wasn't allowed to do a search on this forum.

Having just read through "The Next Codex" thread in the Rumour Mill forum, I read many people saying that the Codex:Eldar is in dire need of a redo because the Eldar list is broken.  Now I disagree totally with this opinion, as even against the new armies the Eldar are still a fearsome enemy when used right (just like all armies).

So what I want to know is why?  Why do some people think the Eldar list is broken?  I would like to hear reasons based on fluff or points cost, not "because the SMs have this and we don't".

[Fiffyfu]

Any army can be deadly in the right hands, the main problem is that the Eldar, Dark Eldar and Ork codexes just dont really work well, and also they are the oldest codices (Dark Eldar, Eldar then Orks i think).

[Rasmus]

Searching: http://www.40konline.com/index.php/topic,77615.0.html

The problem is that right now all armies have a newer listing than the Eldar; we are not longer psychers to be reconned with, our close-combat monster is just another big hard grunt, and many of the units in the list are very overpirced, and therefore see no use on the field at all. Also, there are a lot of clarifications needed as to how the Eldar list relates to 4th ed. This is why a new Codex is needed, simply put.

[Fiffyfu]

"we are not longer psychers to be reconned with"

I compleatly agree, the Space Marine librarian has more and arguably stronger phychic powers than a 10,000 year old phychic master, makes no sence at all.

[Mecra]

The best part is there are some Chaos players that believe they should be better psykers than Eldar. Eldar are broken because they negate Space Marine armor (Starcannons, Banshees, Reapers, etc) and our Dreadnought has three wounds.

I used to think it was because they couldn't hurt the WL with Bolters, but Marine/Chaos players simply hate having a model with three wounds, let alone three of them in an Iyanden army or ANY Eldar army. (I love how Chaos, with DPs and GDs think our Wraithlords are cheesy.)

Tau may feel the same way as our Starcannons can make quick work of their Suits.

It comes down to a few highly viable units and a score of useless/overpriced units. So what do Eldar players use? The units that work. What armies are you going to ALWAYS fight in a GT or RTT? Marines and Chaos. Thus, now our Starcannons and Wraithlords are uber cheese because the opponents are no longer able to rely on their 3+ save. (In my opinion, their fault for playing the most played races in the game.)

Once the new Eldar codex comes out and equalizes things, then Eldar will STILL be called cheesy just because. However, there'll be less of those cries I hope.

[Fiffyfu]

In what way do you mean by cheezy?

[BrathaLir]

Well, the Eldar list is in dire need of a readjustment of points costs, even if nothing else changes.  Many of our now useless units would see the table if they cost 10-20 points less.  Imagine Shining Spears at about 35 points, or Jetbikes at 20-25.  You would see them used.  Hawks at about 17-18.  Ditto.  WG at no more than 30 (25 would be better).  As it stands, many or our specialist units simply aren't that great anymore, yet cost a fortune.  Other units have no real place in the Codex.  Other units need different rules to fit within the 4th ed. paradigm.  The same problem exists with the Ork list, although what those guys NEED is a more of a revamp (include the weapons in the DEX!) and a new model line.  Re-introducing clans would also be fun and neat.  Maybe make the weapons more random again.    

[Dark Flame]

In what way do you mean by cheezy?

  Cheesy refers to an army/unit that has unfair rules as given by GW, and therefor isn't fair to use.  In my opinion, the only real cheesy things in the game are the C'Tan, and everything else is just people being idiots and whiners.  Do not confuse this with powergaming, which is people designing lists just to win, taking units and weapons with no regard for fluff or fair play.  In an example, Starcannons are not cheesy, as they are fair weapons.  However, if someone took 15 Starcannons in a 1.5k list, that would be powergaming.

  As to the Eldar list, the main problem is that there are many points that GW has not addressed that need addressing.  Also, there are many units that need a fix, such as Shining Spears, Wraithguard, Jetbikes, Swooping Hawks, the Avatar, and in some people's opinions, Dark Reapers.

[Farseer Dagoth]

Fluffwise the eldar list might be a little messed up but we are hardly broken if by broken you mean we can't fight, the eldar are probably the most potent army in the game.

[BrathaLir]

Well, Eldar can still win, but I would say that the newest Marine armies are the most potent, possibly outstripping even something like AC or a very infantry heavy Guard army.  The array of special abilities that Marines can display for moderate points cost is simply astounding, and the abilities of the new HQ units are clearly over the edge.

Most Eldar answer with the Starcannon, which quickly balances the equation (kinda like Jack O' the Shadows himself, really) but overreliance on a single weapon isn't a great answer, and is a strategy that leads itself to defeat.  That is MY definition of a broken army: one that relies exclusively on a single unit's tactics to win the bulk of its VP/games.  Example: Chaos Uber Demon Prince in a low-moderate points game.  This thing can easily kill three times its points, or more.  Broken.  Example two: Eldar vs T4/3+ (any points) reliance on Starcannon to win games.  Broken.  Example three: SM librarians Deepstriking in and Booing yoru army off the table.  Broken.  Ugh.     

[Ultran]

as most have already posted eldar are not broken as they cannot win but as they rely on less than 50% of their codex to do it.

what about craftworlds? counting vanilla and the 5 craftworlds, plus usf we have 7 variations of army but how many do you see out there?

lets se iyanden (15 wguards, 3 wlords and 3 falcons in 1.5k.... fluufy but cheese)
ultwe and biel tan are the most used i think
alaitoc is great if you dont play against AC or transport heavy armies, as you can make 11 rolls in the disruption table yo get sure to hit twice eachs of your oponents units before the games starts, needles to say that if you dont have a very good disruption fase the game is going to be difficult.
USF is good, but to fragile against the new rapid fire rules.

And then we have saim han, wich has the best hq ever seen in 3rd edition for close combat (for eldars anyway) but is so difficult to use and so overpriced that the only great possiblity i see is to use like 18 vypers and a litle farseer as hq

now our problem is that the only way we have to play (and see the smallst chance of wining) is to use overkilling armies (wich others players call cheesy or unfair)

[TheGreatAvatar]

we are not longer psychers to be reconned with

No in my eyes!

[BrathaLir]

Iyanden is NOT cheesy.  Have you every played Iyanden?  Proxy it out sometime.  You will have--at most--about 30 models in 1500 points if you make a fluffy list.  My SM opponent always outnumbers me by at least 2:1, Tau by 3:1, Orks by 4:1.  Most of your weapons are 12", and are singularly ill-suited toward killing infanrty.  Everything you have is SLOW and hard to hide.  As Chester Cheetah used to say:  "It ain't easy being cheesy."

Anyway, Eldar are broken in the sense of relying on the Starcannon to provide probably 40-50% of VP (from shooting).  No other army relies so much on a single Weapon to win games.  DE use a lot of DLs, but usually try and pack as many dissies into their lists as possible, just in case...

[murgel]

I am not an experienced player. I love Eldar because of their fluff.
I do feel that the list ist broken due to:

1. Lots of units never appear, just one weapon providing the mainstay of support.

2. there is nothing left of this fluff as soon as you play. there is no technical superiority, no need to try sparing lives of your men etc.
its actually the other way around. a 20 Elf Guardian squad with starcannon is a good select, you will loose the men sooner or later but just keep the cannon shooting! that is not Eldar to me! Jetbike hit-and-run, thats Eldar. But you cant wound, get RFed even before your superior weapons are in firing range.

So I go along with: " the list is broken "
murgel

[Farseer Muad Dip]

The eldar list really isn't broken it just needs to be updated to the new standards we have for armies and the only units that could really be considered broken and in serious need of a fix are SSpears, jetbikes and a few others, even these really only need a small points tweak or slight rules change

[Dark Flame]

  I find it interesting that all of you critisize the relliance on Starcannons, when I'll bet every one of you takes them in your list.  It is possible for the Eldar to win without them, and I have started never taking them with my Ulthwe.  It's an interesting experience, and I would advise others try it.

  Anyway, this thread is slightly shifting towards what should be changed/how it should be changed, and if that continues it will be locked, as there is already a thread for that topic.

[The_Outcast]

 Reapers are not broken th are in fatc worthless. They should change their name to fie magnet. They are just too expensive and to good it the shooting phase to be left alone. one pie plate and boom nothing left or a few depending on what you do. The eldar list is supposed to hit like a hammer and be fragile but its too fragile now and it doesn't hit very hard without starcannon. If I didn't take starcannons in my list my opponents would not take anuy cauaulties and blow me away without flinching. Even if I took all bright lances still probably enough cept fo agtainst AC. starcanno are simply the best. Its like giving a gaurdsman a stick for his lasgun. I know ba example but I'd rather have a gun than a stick. I don't tak ebrightlance As my dice would roll and miss almost every time. Scatter lasers wow six shots in six turn wow that sucked. but myabe that just me. Missile launchers same thing with the brightlance just more points. The eldar list is broken because when we play I don't know about you I don't play to win every game but I don't play to lose every game either. Anyway when you see an eldar list in war you're going to take the best you have no the worst you have. same with warhammer. You don't see us whining about a heavy bolter mowing down our guardians at the same rate as our starcannons them. and their heavy bolter is cheaper and has a highr BS skill. The eldar list is called cheese becausethe part that you see is the part that works.   

done ranting

The_Outcast

[edible]

eldar has the potential to be almost unstoppable against SMurfs and chaos so them being 2/3 of te people kick up a stinkn a few players give the eldar a bad name but to stop the reliance on starcannons the alternitives need to be better for example marenes all their heavy weapons work well at their job

[eldannardo]

The eldar are a winnable army, construct your list right, use the right tactics for your list and don't have bad luck...you will win...as with any army in the 40k realm.

It's just a shame that it's not viable to take some of the more cooler models in a tourny when your opponent is unk. Might sound silly but when i first started playing i knew nothing about 40k, i bought the codex and my order of priority was the models i liked. (that was back in the 2nd ed) When i play now my lists are so different it's like a separate race...

3 scorps, 5 Sw Hks, 2x5 man Gdn sq, 6 jetbikes, 3 warp spdrs, 1 vyper, 1 farseer, 1 WWkr, 2 exarchs, 3 Dk rprs, 1 Wthlord
that was about 1000pts, no starcannons at all, well rounded force back when that was basically the only units i owned.

Now days it's a lot different:

Farseer, 10 banshees & Wve srpnt, 5 warp spdrs, 8 fire drgns & wve srpnt, 2x5 man gdn sq & str cn, 10 dire avngr, 4 vypers,
1 wthlord, 4 dk rprs, 1 falcon, 4 exarchs in total. about 1500pts, 6 starcannons, a lot of models gathering dust on the shelf as i have about 90% of the units in the codex now.

Broken...maybe a little. It would take very little to fix, but that's another post.

[Dark Flame]

  Outcast, I have yet to lose a game playing without Starcannons.  The trick is to make use of other units, and to play with an overall battleplan.  I make use of many Guardian (using Shuriken Catapults), and plenty of close combat units (Combat Council, Striking Scorpions, Storm Guardians, Avatar, Wraithlord) to make up for the loss.  Using Dark Reapers can also work wonders, so long as you put them in cover, and make sure that you have other high priority targets.