Topic: Wishlisting the next Codex (again). [Swooping hawks as troops?]

[ReverseGeneticDrift]

I asked about Hawks as troops because they are not specialized!  lol I agree that sky leap would have to change/go away as a Troop.  Not all aspects need to be troops if hawks are (DA are Troops for example).

An autarch is not part of an aspect, we don't have warlocks leading aspect squads-they once were apart of them too.  The Autarch is on the path of command, its own thing.  Im not suggesting he not help Aspects, but I dont see how there can be a guardian unit in the game if they were undergeared and used as road blocks, suicide probably is not something eldar want.

Since this is becoming wishlisting (as i read it in the title now :p)  weapon platforms have to change.  If we are using them as a very stable platform they should give fast shot to that weapon.  Platform (or maybe rule for CTM).  Won't let you move any faster or shoot more weapons, but hey your bad bs might hit since we squeeze an extra shot off now.

Edit:  something that should be in the codex is diagrams of our vehicles with front/side/rear armor well marked.  Clear rules for all weapons (taking a vibro cannon is asking for an argument), and some apoc vehicles (Im biased: I own a firestorm and night spinner).

[knotdragon]

Well since the autarch is on the path of command why not allow him to purchase particular specialities just like exarch powers but allowing you to equip him for a more strategic and standoffish manner (perhaps opening up more standoffish weaponry and gear) or for more active combat up close?

Since he's already been on various aspect paths I can really see him suiting up for whatever role the battle demands of him.

I can even see him donning a cameleoline cloak and directing from the shadows - sweet 



I know many people are ill disposed to the craftworld eldar book style individuality, but I miss having black guardians, I really like all that stuff!  Maybe you could purchase a particular compulsory craftworld specific HQ unit that denotes your army coming from a craftworld and gives you the special abilities/FOC that allows? 

[Gutstikk]

Hawks just need some very basic things.
1) Standard aspect pricing at 16pts a model
2) Removal of idiocy surrounding the FAQ and intercept
3) Reversing order of Skyleap, so that it is a redeploy executed in the same turn [meaning they leave and come back in the same movement phase [in that order] rather than arriving then leaving again]. This permits gun and grenade pack to be used every time they skyleap, doubling their ROF.

Those three changes makes them a viable unit again.

They definitely ought not be troops though.

[Reikai]

hmm, alot of posts here seem to talk about the Autarch.

How about the Autarch get something different?  Bring back some of the old Craftworld Eldar stuff.  Give the Autarch the ability to "buy" old CWE stuff.  The ability would be akin to "Inspiring Prensence" and would only be available to actual Autarchs, not Yriel (as he did not become Autarch through training etc.)

For example:
Autarch of Ulthwe - As long as the Autarch of Ulthwe is alive all Guardian Defenders add +1 to their BS, and all Storm Guardians add +1 to their WS.

Something like this would of course be an optional upgrade, and Autarchs may take multiple upgrades if they wish (reflecting how Autarchs may go to Other craftworlds to train through their long lifetimes.)

[Greg23]

Honestly, the current codex suffers from being a 4.5 Codex in a 5th ed world.  Lot's of things in the current codex are just antiquated.  The Autarch strategy rating of 4, ranger sniper rifles ignoring armor on a 6 to wound, shuriken cannon upgrades to vehicles, etc.

I personally would like to go back to dedicated craftworld lists, but GW  seems to have killed that idea dead.  The IG and Space Marine codex lets people play "fluffy" armies via special characters.  But the wonder twins, Eldrad and Yriel, are just beefed up uber-characters based off vanilla Farseers and Autarchs.  Eldrad and wraithguard, go for it!   Yriel and jet bikes, rock on!

And honestly, the Codex suffers from way too many units competing for far too few force org slots.
For example, take a dedicate hth unit/character.  There's the jebike laser lance Autarch, Seer Council, Avatar, Yriel, 2/3rd of the Phoenix Lords, Striking Scorpions, Banshees, Harlequins, tar baby Dire Avengers, Stormies, Shining Spears, and Wraithlord. 

That's about 14 units.  On paper, that looks like great variety.  But in practice, rolls overlap big time and the individual units themselves start lacking flexibility.  More effective point for point units are used (seer council and wraithlords) while less effective units are ignored (Phoenix Lords and Shining Spears)

The Eldar codex is a victim of its own excesses.  This, and paired with  the new 5th ed rules and victory scenarios, the entire codex needs to be rethough from the ground up.  Fixing a unit or two does not fix the problem.  The problem is too systemic.

[Eidolon]

I wouldnt mind the whole 'special character x lets you play as craftworld Y rules'. However, i have always believed that these things should come with a drawback. For example: take Eldrad and you gain access to 2 farseers being attached to your warlock squad, and all guardians gain either +1 BS or WS depending on type. However all aspects become a 0-1 choice.

Continuing with the recent trend of characters however these lists will have no drawbacks. Take my previous example of Vulkan or Creed. Vulkan gives you that twin linked and master crafted bonus. Very fluffy for salamanders, however they no longer suffer from the -1 to initiative, or any of the other drawbacks the old salamanders list faced. So now you can have as many meltas as possible in bike squads, and wreck your opponents army turn two very easily.

With Creed you gain the ability to outflank one unit, particularly devastating if that unit is a squadron of leman russ tanks. And the russes themselves are probably a better example, now you gain the ability to run whats practically an armored company, with none of the drawbacks of the actual armored company.

I feel that if GW were to remove this trait of someone gaining all the benefits of a cool list with none fo the drawbacks the game could improve drastically for those of us who do not have the up to date codexs.

[CelestialDragonKing]

I haven't played in a while but i'm gearing up to play again. Even I can see that Swooping Hawks suck. especially against MEQ's. However I don't think they need to be changed to a troop. Just make them worthy of what they are. I suggest the weapon become Assault 3. Something just a bit more different from the basic lasguns they have. They should also be able to drop when ever they want. That's it. Not to many big changes I think and would make them a bit more effective. If it wouldn't be over the top i'd also make their gun AP4.

Next i'd give the guardians a 4+ save. I would think the superior eldar technology would extend to defense as well.

Another thing that surprised me in my testing was how bad the rangers were against MEQ's. I thought they'd be great but in five rounds with 5 guys they made ZERO kills. The ability to wound always on 4+ sucks if all you have is T4 anyway. for such a high price they couldn't get it back at all. I can only think they'd be good and sneaking in and taking objectives but they had better have cover to do it.

[ReverseGeneticDrift]

I like the idea to use the Autarch to bring back some craft world bonuses.  Maybe Eldrad would have his strike force option unique to him (cant see an autarch coming along every time).

Court of the young king could be changed to Autarchs instead of Exarchs (your last mission failed, now sacrifice your self to Khain :p )

I was thinking to use him to make guardians not suck, but that could be an unrelated change.

[Gutstikk]

In all honesty the current codex is not as bad on a uit to unit basis as some would think. Sure, it's not a 5th ed codex, but it still functions better than you'd think, even in tournament environments. And this is without the use of scoring Avengers and etc. Some builds will always be the OT powerbuilds, and some won't. Even a standard Autarch is pretty capable as a unit selection.

[angel of death 007]

I think that there definately needs to be special characters that offer a huge bonus like other codex's...  Eldrad I will grant is a power house but when you compare him to what Vulkan can do for the whole army...  i think it is kinda weak in comparison... 

Big problems with Eldar that need fixing... 
1.) we definately need more anti-armor weapons...  up the power of the bright lance....
2.) more template weapons....
3.) cheaper transports... (by far and away the biggest thing that changed in the new codexes is the fact that most of the transports not only dropped in points cost but got added equipment for free)
4.) lower cost upgrades / exarch powers

as far as the Autarchs go... if you take one as an HQ then all your sqds get the Exarch upgrade free... they just have to pay for powers/equipment... 

I definately think that if you take a PL that you should get their disciples as troop choices.  Kinda like the ork codex....

[Dread]

I like alot of the suggestions being posted. My 2 cents:

Hawks need shurkin catapults-get rid of the flash lights. Or give them shuriken pistol/cc weapon choice. [ reasoning- make them more compatible to other assult troops in other armies]

Autarchs should have some kinda autarch powers like exarchs have.[Well this one should be self expainatory]

Assult ramp on serprents or make a new transport with this ability, new rules hosed us.[Reasoning, fast army. No ability to move, disembark and attack, almost makes our expensive transports useless.]

Star cannons should have the 3 shot ability like before ( look at the assult cannon).[ already showed why]

Bright lance should be str 9 ( it is the = to a lascannon or should be) try to take out a land      raider or a monalith with this, you need to be REAL lucky[ reasoning- lascannons, multimeltas, monorail, vidicator cannon, blah blah. Give me away to mount a D-cannon on a falcon chassis and then we'll talk]

Energy field on serpents should be str 7 or above become str 7 or make it to where you can only glance like smoke. [reasoning rhino=35 pts, rhinos have smoke, serpent = 90 pt, no smoke. Tau vehicles have some good stuff too.]

All grav vehicles should be given a targeter upgrade choice to increase their BS, 10 or 15 pts. The eldar are supposed to be advanced, even being piloted by guardians.[more advanced according to fluff]

Banshee pts need to be reworked or more to the point, blood letters. They are 16 pts with T 4, Str 4 all power weapon attacks. I know they only have a 5+ inv but they should at least be 19-20 pts a piece. 16 for a banshee is good.[already explained]

I think that these changes would balance our book out better.

But a general change that should be done is getting rid of twin linked rules, 2 weapons is 2 weapons. Just my opinion.

[Straker]

Wow...I know this is a wishlisting thread, but seriously some of the stuff suggested is the most over powered crap ever...I do not want to point anyone out, but should this thread try to be contained at all to at least reasonable wishlisting? Simply saying a unit should get this this and this and not explaining why isn't very helpful...

I think keeping it reasonable and explaining changes should be in order before this gets out of control...

[SeekingOne]

Ok, since we're into "wishlisting" here, I can't help listing the stuff that I think really needs to be fixed in our codex. Everything is reasonable mind you

1. All infantry, jump infantry and bike units should have plasma+haywire grenades as standard (where it makes sense, of course - obviously Banshees don't need plasma and Dragons don't need haywire). At least this change should be made to all Aspect warriors.
Reason: armies of all "civilized" races have that, and that is what considerably helps other armies to deal with tank-spam. And Aspect warriors (especially assault specialists like Shining Spears) going into battle without basic assault equipment is utterly ridiculous.

2. Bright Lance should get AP1. Certainly not S9 (out of character), and cost reduction won't help it much.
EML and Starcannon should have their cost go down to the same level as that of Scatter Laser.
Reason: An awfully expensive dedicated anti-tank weapon should actually be capable of killing tanks effectively, don't you think? As for other weapons, they are just weak and can't be priced that high.

3. Autarch should get a boost to his Master Strategist rule. Something like being able to add OR subtract "1" to/from each Reserve roll, and to reroll unfavourable Outflank rolls. Also, Autarch should get a good boost in terms of weapons (without cost increase).
Reason: The existing Autarch is really not a cost-effective point investment.

4. Generic Farseers absolutely need a boost of their psychic performance. I envision something like the following:
- Basic Farseer at ~100 pts; he already knows any 2 powers and can cast them both each turn.
- Something like "Venerable" Farseer (or a Farseer w/Spirit Stones) at ~150 pts; knows any 3 powers; can cast any two of them each turn OR attempt any one of them twice each turn (i.e. he can take up to two psychic tests each turn, which can be either for 2 different powers or for 2 attempts of the same power).
Reason: Farsers as they are now would never be able to compete with Eldrad (not even if Eldrad's cost goes up to some 250 pts). The existing Farseers are ok in formats up to 1500, but at 1750+ their support is just to weak to noticeably affect the course of the battle.

5. Some units need fixing, namely:
- Shining Spears: should have grenades (or equivalent rule) and either a serious cost reduction (down to ~25 pts per model) or serious boost of survivability. I'd love to see them at their current cost but with Holofield-generators giving them 4+ Inv save
- Wraithguard: either cost reduction or boost of killing power (Wraithcannon with range of 18" ?)
- Vyper: this one absolutely needs to be turned into a standard jetbike with natural T4 and 2 wounds. Should be available in squadrons as FA choice (like now); also should be available as an upgrade for Guardian jetbike squads (say, 1 Vyper per each 6 jetbikes).
- Guardian jetbikes: cost reduction to ~18 pts, and cannon upgrade at 5 pts.
- Hawks: I honestly don't know how to fix them, as I think the whole concept of this squad is flawed. Maybe just make them cost the same as any Elite Aspect warrior on foot.

6. Tanks
I'd really like to see BS of Falcons going up to 4. Wave Serpent I think should remain BS3 but get a overall cost reduction. Cost of cannon upgrade should go down to 5 pts. Also, it will be nice to have an upgrade that will let our tanks shoot 2 main weapons after moving 12". One other thing that I'd really like to see is some sort of an upgrade option to make a tank more resistant to melee attacks.

That's about it I think... Lots of other tweaks can be suggested, but the stuff I listed above is major.

[Eidolon]

I think if they brought back the crystal targeting matrix, and let you make a 12 inch total move and only count as moving at combat speed it would be a huge change.

[ReverseGeneticDrift]

I don't think swooping hawks need to become CC focused (we have lots).
Also I don't think we want all of these suggestions to be made happen (for balance at least)!

If i read the new codex and don't feel like the Eldar are stupid for not giving their warriors a ccw (for the+1) that would help a lot (shining spears), sending their guardians to their death with paper armor, and crappy flash lights.  I will be happy.  My meta game needs are to have play style and army configuration options.  I think this is asking a lot, but it can be done.

[Roy]

Here's my complete wishlist for 5th:

*note Units that aren't mentioned remains unchanged.

HQ:

Avatar: St 8 T 7

Autarch: Should return to being an Exarch trapped on the whole path of war, have access to exarch wargear and have powers that affects the aspect squad he happens to join. (And yes, the Autarch was originally such an Exarch. In fact, it is still the current fluff in Epic).

If he joins an Aspect, they count as Troops.

Farseer: More power options:
1. Extend - increases range of weapons of 1 unit.
2. Reveal - Reduces or removes coversave of 1 enemy unit.
3. Jinx - One enemy unit must reroll any successful to hit (shooting or CC)
4. Wraithgate: Opens a temporary webway gate, lets 1 unit enter play from reserves.

and more..

Warlock: Witchblade = Powerweapon, always wound on 4+. Conceal changed to +1 coversave. New power Shrouding - unit gains nightfighting rules.

Phoenix Lords: Cheaper.

Troops:

Guardians: Standard rifle = Lasblaster. Organised in similar fashion to IG Platoons. Add option for heavy weapon team, let defenders pick artillery platform. (so they might see use). Cheaper.
Defenders BS 4, Stormies WS4.

Jetbikes: CC option, longer range, special weapons. Cheaper.

Dire Avengers: As is, but 10 pts.

Rangers: More outfitting options. CC weapons, special weapons. IE, more like they were in 2. ed. (kind of our "veterans").

Wraithguard: Moved entierly to Elites.

Elites:

Wraithguard These guys are seriously boring (and ridicoulously expensive money wise). Should be completely redone. CC option, different weapon options. More like terminators.

Harlequins Troupe Leader and Shadowseer moved to HQ. 4+ Inv save. Harlequins kiss wounds on 2+.

Banshees, Scorpions and Dragons are fine as they are.

Fast Attack:

Swooping Hawks: These guys are useless, terribly expensive, and fragile. Furthermore they have no properly defined role. These guys need to be completely reworked and given a proper aspect role.

Vypers: Closed Topped, BS4, Cheaper weapon options.

Shining Spears: Cheaper, squadsize 5-10.

Warp Spiders: Surprise Assault power changed to "Skilled Riders".

Warwalkers: Scout warwalkers moved to Fast Attack.

Heavy Support:

Warwalkers: "Heavy" Warwalkers, like Armoured Sentinels.

Falcons: Squads with no more than 6 models may take Falcons as dedicated transports.

Several more tanks on tha falcon Chassis, hereunder:
1. Firestorm
2. Death Spinner Tank
3. Some kind of dedicated Anti Tank version.


I've probably forgot something, but that a pretty good overview of what I want. I can elaborate on things if asked.

[Eidolon]

Roy, i hope you are being sarcastic. In almost all instances units should either increase in power OR decrease in points, not both.

[Roy]

Roy, i hope you are being sarcastic. In almost all instances units should either increase in power OR decrease in points, not both.

Unless the universal rules of the game has seriously shifted effectiveness per point ration of your units internally or externally.

I imagine there are two areas where you object, mainly warlock and harlequins, but I said nothing about what their respective points cost should be. But remember also, that the theme for 5th edition has been powering things up, creating more options, and making things cheaper.

I seriously doubt most of the changes would do much to skew balance, warlock being the prime danger, but who's to say they wouldn't be much more expensive, and maybe limited to 0-1 option, or make the squad size 3-5 or some other option.

Besides, it's not like I've playtested my wishlist. Mostly it's there in case some GW codex designer felt like getting some inspiration.

[Straker]

Actually, Roy I think you provided the first cool "new" wishlist idea, and that is of falcon variants. I am sick of it's "hybrid" role as the only choice, and adding some options that compete with the Fire Prism is pretty cool...

Not sure about Falcons as dedicated transports though, that isn't quite their role...

I also don't see how in the world Vypers aren't one of the most open topped unit in the entire game...

Lastly, I would prefer all shuiken catapults to be 18'' than guardians getting lasblasters...(it also makes no sense that the same gun has different ranges)

[laucian_meliamne]

I've been hoping for this ever since the first rumours of the 4th Edition Codex were floating around...

Crystal Targeting Matrix: Grant the vehicle +1 BS.  (Fire Prisms have one included in their base cost.)

The Tau already have an identical upgrade included on the Hammerhead, so the mechanics are proven and there's a rules precendent.  Basically for whatever a fair cost would be you could get any of your vehicles (including Walkers and Vypers) up to BS4.  It's easy, it's effective, it clearly indicates "targeting," and I think it's something all of us would really, really like.

I mean, sure the move-shoot-move thing of 3rd edition was fun.  But I don't think there's any good way of re-introducing that mechanic that doesn't feel like a kludge.  Besides, I would rather have BS4 Vypers running around with Brightlances that actually hit things.