Topic: wraithlords, whats the big deal?

[The Hive Custodian (Retired)]

Sigh... looks like I gotta spell it out again...

Well, let's compare the Wraithlord to the other Toughness-based Dreadnought equivalent: The Carnifex.

Advantages of...

The Carnifex:
-More options; perhaps the most useful being Extended Carapace.
-2d6 Penetration dice in close combat
-Higher Strength ranged weapons
-1 more Wound
-5 points cheaper
-Implant Attack is good if you match up against a Wraithlord, but against other things, auto-kill usually makes it redundant.

The Wraithlord
-Higher WS (+1) , BS (+2), S (+1), T (+2), I (+3), and A (+1) (Carnifex could take Scything Talons, but would bring cost over 75. Other upgrades would similarily increase cost)
-More ranged weapons, with better AP, accuracy, # fired and range
-No Shoot the Big Ones
-A Starcannon against a Carnifex is far more effective than a Venom Cannon against a Wraithlord.

Personally, I'd rather have the Wraithlord. I think the Carnifex is just as essential to the Tyranids as the Wraithlord is to the Eldar.

Rending Claws vs. Wraithlord: A Genestealer's attack will wound 1/9 times against a Wraithlord. Discounting morale and chargin bonuses, the break-even point is:

2 x 1/9 Genestealers per 1.25 Wraithlords x (3 - 2 x 1/9 Genestealers) / 3

Plugging in 1 Wraithlord we end up with 3.97 Genestealers per Wraithlord. This is 63-64 points. From this, it may appear that the Wraithlord is at a disadvantage. However, this only covers the melee aspect.

With its twin Flamers, and at 75 points, do you think a Wraithlord, on average, will be able to take out even ONE Genestealer before they get into melee? I think so; with its auto-hit and penetration, a Genestealer under each template would generate 1 kill on average. 3.97 + 1 dead Genestealer is 79-80 points, more than the Wraithlord.

Now, moving onto the heavy weapons, which Wraithlords MUST take now:
A Shuriken Cannon costs another 25 points. Do you think it can kill two Genestealers (32 points)?
If a Shuriken Cannon can do it, so can a Scatter Laser.
There is no reason to take a Bright Lance against Tyranids, unless you are crazy about that auto-kill. Even if you do, you'll most likely be able to slay three before they get to you.
The Starcannon, with its longer range, will be able to take another one down over the Shuriken Cannon.
The EML... a Plasma missile at its range will easily slay four Genestealers.

As for the Genestealers' upgrades... sure, Implant Attack will be useful against a Wraithlord, but it reduces the number of Genestealers, and it won't save them from the Wraithlord's guns. Plus, it really isn't that good against anything else. In any case, with it, the break even point is:

2 x 1/9 x 2 Genestealers per 1.25 Wraithlords x (3 - 2 x 1/9 x 2 Genestealers) / 3

Or 1.99 Genestealers. This is nearly 40 points, meaning that two Genestealer kills from flamers will make it even.

All things considered, the Genestealer is just about the ideal thing to take against a Wraithlord. If they only deliver this kind of performance against a Wraithlord, then I think something needs to be changed slightly.

[mr0santan]

it still is really a pointless arguement (and yes, i remeber that post about 10times over, lol)

the gene stealers can attack otherstuff eventually...and what you are saying is that you need 8 genestealers or whatever to start with to kill teh WL IN ONE TURN in cc!!!!

if it takes 4 genestealers 1 turn to killa  WL... they will still be able to kill other stuff... an they don't need ti kill it in one turn!!! the WL will only kill about one 'steealer a turn...

if the nid player is playing right, the WL should be tied in cc from turn 2 because of gaunts, or whatever, adn teh genestealers should be protected by a sheild of guys, namely the leaping termaguants and hormas and gargoyles and stuff

what about when those 4 genetealers that just destroyed my ancient warrior consolodate into my guardian line and kill 8 of them... the genestealers make back there points left over from teh dead WL

it all depends on the sitation.

if i see 4 genestealers charge my WL, i know he will be dead in a turn or two  

[The Hive Custodian (Retired)]

4 Genestealers is the number needed to balance the Wraithlord's ability to kill Genestealers. In other words, they will tie against the Wraithlord (okay, 3.97 will). 4 Genestealers x 2 Attacks x 2/3 hit x 1/6 wound = 8/9 wounds, not nearly enough to kill it in one turn. To kill the Wraithlord in one turn, you would need 3 Wounds / (2/3 hit x 2 attacks x 1/6 wound), or about a full brood (2/3 a brood if charging, but Genestealers ain't any faster than Wraithlords).

Next, you can't screen the Genestealers, due to Shoot the Big Ones.

As for the Gaunts, 32 Gaunts costs 160 points, plus you have to have some Synapse or something to keep them from running. Also, using Gaunts means that you'll never kill the Wraithlord, because anything else that you send in can't get past the Gaunts. Besides, the Tyranids probably aren't going first, due to you rolling three dice to our one. You'll shoot, they'll move, you'll shoot again, and probably with Flamers. And also, you can't always delay the Wraithlord; some games say you gotta kill it. Personally, I think there should be a better way than just feeding it Gaunts. In any case, the 75 points spent on the Wraithlord itself (the heavy weapon can make up its points in a turn or two: just fry the 59 point Zoanthrope with the Starcannon) will only buy 15 Gaunts. Subtract two for a Hive Node, which isn't exactly perfect, and then some more for Flamer kills, and you've got a pretty narrow unit, especially considering that the Wraithlord hits them on a 3+, and that here, you're only breaking even.

Oh yeah, and WS4 hits WS6 on a 4+.

[Uthwe4life]

There's no point in comparing diffrent armies because they are diffrent. IF the wraithlord is one of Eldars strengths than dont complain because Tyranids have theirs too. Also If I ever use them I use 2 in my 2,000 pt army, and thats because I don't feel like setting up banshes...
Using 3 and a Avatar is pretty nasty at 1000 pts. A quick solution play guard

[Volo]

well, I tend to agree with bored1 and hive costodian on this one. the WL needs a restriction AND and point increase. and with 3 of them in a 500 point game, I don't believe any list you put against it will fair well.
MB the 'Nids/Orks are ill equiped to handle the WL, but it doesnt change the fact that something still needs to be done to the Lord, in addition to possible slight changes to the Ork/Nid lists.

[mr0santan]

oops   i was wrong about the WS thing... dunno WHAT i was smokin'... ma-bad, lol

and i thought shoot the big ones was for monstrous creatures ?

i still say if 6 genstealers chrge a wraithlord... teh WL will be dead in the second roound... with alot of 'stealers left over to wreak havoc on the rest of my army  

don't hormagaunts(terma ?) cost like 7 ponts w/ all the leaping crap too ?!?!?!!??

the 'nids do need a better way to kill high toughness guys... THEY need better ways... i am not too versed in bugs, but they must have something that "wounds on 4+" ?  if they don't, they should, and i agree with you, doen't mean the WL should cost 150 pts  

nids don't have a good way to kill a monolith either... should that cost 500 points ?

/sigh, it would all be better if fagz didn't use3  WL's, and people don't make baeles remarks  and complaints.... i consider yours to be insightful, hive custodian, i am just trying to make my point, as are you  

[Sensoth]

well if you cee some1 thinking they're high and mighty with 3 WLs, and not much else, then bust out your handy-dandy alaitoc army and kick they're a$s, just to prove that they arent that great.

....another funny thing to do is if your ever playing a FFA and your alaitoc and theres a iyadian(spelling), just kill them and laugh...

...or maybe thats just me

[shadow=blue,left,300]Travis[/shadow]

[FarseerAsgaard]

eldar dont really have anything else that can stand up to bugs in hth anyway.
sure eldar have big guns, but once it gets down to the swirling melees, bugs easily cut a swathe of death through the T3 eldar lines. striking scorpions can do good against gaunts, but chances are there are going to be so many of them swarming around that a 10 man squad (which is relatively small compared to other army's max squads) doesn't stand much of a chance.
banshees are pretty much useless against bugs. their low strength power weapons are contradictory. anything you can attack that makes good use of power weapons is so high in toughness that wounding them is almost impossible. against lower toughness bugs you might as well use striking scorpions, cuz they have crappy saves.
fire dragons? whats the point? you usually dont want to run TOWARDS 'Nids. Sure they can torch a carnifex, but there are more efficient ways to spend points.
that leaves wraithguard. tough, well armored, and strong. again, too short ranged for shooting, so that leaves HTH. they only have one attack, and an expensive one at that. can be taken on by pretty much anything except gaunts.
the Wraithlord is basically the only reason the Nids have to not run pell-mell up into the eldar faces. that said, i wouldnt mind a small points increase to bring it on par with SM dreads.

[Farseer Lael]

An enhance seer council with witchblades are good for chewing through genestealers.

[Russian Ninja]

We're still having this argument huh? Look Hive is right. Tyranids, Orks, DE and Sisters have a hard time against WLs. Just goes to show that there is absolutely no such thing as Balance in W40K

[FarseerAsgaard]

then the same can be said for SM dreadnoughts

yeah, there is no such thing as balance, only profit

[InfinityCircuit]

DE having a hard Time Versus WL?

I find that hard to believe.  Dark Lances and Disintegrators are often everywhere in DE armies.  And these things can easily take down a WL.

[The Hive Custodian (Retired)]

eldar dont really have anything else that can stand up to bugs in hth anyway.
sure eldar have big guns, but once it gets down to the swirling melees, bugs easily cut a swathe of death through the T3 eldar lines. striking scorpions can do good against gaunts, but chances are there are going to be so many of them swarming around that a 10 man squad (which is relatively small compared to other army's max squads) doesn't stand much of a chance.
banshees are pretty much useless against bugs. their low strength power weapons are contradictory. anything you can attack that makes good use of power weapons is so high in toughness that wounding them is almost impossible. against lower toughness bugs you might as well use striking scorpions, cuz they have crappy saves.
fire dragons? whats the point? you usually dont want to run TOWARDS 'Nids. Sure they can torch a carnifex, but there are more efficient ways to spend points.
that leaves wraithguard. tough, well armored, and strong. again, too short ranged for shooting, so that leaves HTH. they only have one attack, and an expensive one at that. can be taken on by pretty much anything except gaunts.
the Wraithlord is basically the only reason the Nids have to not run pell-mell up into the eldar faces. that said, i wouldnt mind a small points increase to bring it on par with SM dreads.

And how does that make the Wraithlord necessary? Is being able to totally out-shoot the bugs not enough for you? Do you want to beat them in melee as well? Again, if the rest of the Codex is so inferior, then make it better and the Wraithlord worse.

In any case, the bugs mostly have 5+ or 6+ saves, which is just as bad as T3. T3 to T4 will increase your survivablity as a 5+ save over none, a 4+ over 6+, or a 3+ over a 4+. Point-for-point, Scorps can beat most Gaunt and Warriors, and CHARGING Genestealers, Zoanthropes, Raveners, Gargoyles, and Lictors. 16 points x 10 per squad x 3 sqauds is 480 points, which isn't too bad. And Biel-Tan can field TWICE that. I wouldn't use Banshees, or Fire Dragons, either, but that doesn't mean the Eldar melee is weak; Banshees are best against low T, good saves, and Fire Dragons against tanks, which 'nids don't have. Not to mention our chances of hitting a Skimmer in melee is about as good as a Banshee's chance of wounding a Tyrant.

"the Wraithlord is basically the only reason the Nids have to not run pell-mell up into the eldar faces."? Well, what else are we supposed to do? Sit there and be shot at?

[TheMightyPikachu]

hmm... Eldar have great counters vs nids

for one thing, e-storm
an ordnance template with a fair chance of killing 1/2 the # of buggies under it, or mind warring the tyrant with no inv save

storm guardian flamers with a warlock with destructor, THREE templates
or an HQ with multiple destructers,
i had 3 of em wipe out like 20 gaunts

scatter lasers, shuriken cannons...

[Harlequinz :)]

Dark Eldar= Talos

[Volo]

im sorry guys, but hive is right, the Eldar have a few thing besides a lord that can take Nids. Among these are Scropions, any seer council of any kind (warlock body guard, or council), storm guardians (yes, i said storm guard), and even Shining spears (if you charge) are great to stop the horde for a turn or two so somthing else can charge. they are durable against nids too. And Wraithguard may only get one attack, but these things are like walls to Blood Angel assault squads. what makes you think that they cant hold their own against Nids? You dont need the lord.

[Raven Nevermore]

but if you take a lord against nids, they are quite durable. resonably resistent to venon cannons, and they can hold there own in close combat, and if they take a star cannon, they can shoot the mostrous creature and expect it to die before it gets into close combat...

[Volo]

the whole point is that when you do that, the Nids dont stand a chance.

[mordrid311]

As with mich of the Eldar army that i have seen the Wraithlord is underpriced for its combat ability. Look at the ruled for the Wraithlord, then look aqt the rules for a Carnifex. The fex is more expensive and less effective, but is priced fairly.

[Russian Ninja]

Remember the number 1 rule about Warhammer (fantasy as well), it's not balenced. There are lots of things that are over and under rated as well as lots of cheesy stuff. Like magic. That's overated. And artillery as well. And Space Marines.