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Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

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Dark Eldar symbols
« on: March 17, 2013, 09:59:41 AM »
Not a painting matter, I'm not asking advice about painting, just a view on things.

I'm wondering whether to paint my Kabals symbol on my units or not?

So far I haven't done it, I simply don't like it, I have tried it though, but I erased it afterwards.
In case some don't know me, my Army is composed of old and new stuff (mostly old, but I keep buying more new stuff)
The old raiders, old skimmers, didn't have any symbols on them, it's with the new Dark Eldar that GW suddenly started to attach importance to free hand on dark eldar, as well as putting the kabals symbol on their vehicles. The Old Raven flyers didn't have anything on their either. I had painted it on them at one point, but after looking at them for a couple of days, I just didn't like it and erased it.
Eventually the symbol could be painted on the front of the raider, or either on a banner, the new raiders have plenty of leftovers to make banners to put on the old ones.

Now, new stuff, raiders, those who have a banner, sure why not, but I don't have to paint it, I can do any other set of symbols on the banners. Besides, I don't intend to put those banner on all of my new raiders. The sail on the raiders and ravagers isn't an option, I'm going to do a free sail with beehive like motives on it, the thing will be complicated enough to leave any space for a symbol. I don't want any symbol on the side armor either, I just don't think it looks any good.

Im currently painting my first razorwing flyer, this is why I'm thinking about this so much. I don't see any space for any symbols, I even have a hard time with the red freehand GW has put on theirs, I did do some freehand of my own, but nothing like GW did.

I kind of enjoy not having any symbols anywhere, I would imagine they would attack somebody  and noboby would know what Kabal they belong to.  I have put my Kabals symbol on a few units, but in those cases, it just seemed like the perfect spot to put it on. I prefer taking my distance from the Imperials or that put their symbol even on their underwear. The craftworlds don't have their craftworld symbol on everything either, some people don't paint it either. I will have my Kabals symbol here and there, but not on every single vehicle.

So what do you think?
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Offline Plastikente

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Re: Dark Eldar symbols
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2013, 01:04:09 PM »
I enjoy painting on freehand designs and symbols, which generally leads me to try and put them on anything with a large enough blank surface.  In some cases this is my Kabal symbol, but often it is just some other symbol, often inspired by the stuff on the DE transfers or as painted by 'Eavy Metal.

I prefer taking my distance from the Imperials or that put their symbol even on their underwear.
A great sentiment for anyone collecting Xenos  :)


I have put my Kabals symbol on a few units, but in those cases, it just seemed like the perfect spot to put it on.
Almost none of my infantry get symbols, because unless they have banners I can't find any surfaces I want to paint them on.

Im currently painting my first razorwing flyer, this is why I'm thinking about this so much. I don't see any space for any symbols, I even have a hard time with the red freehand GW has put on theirs, I did do some freehand of my own, but nothing like GW did.
I love the Razorwing for the opportunity for freehand stuff on those nice big flat(-ish) surfaces.

The three orange ones are just copied from the 'Eavy Metal model on the box, but the white one is my Bloodspray Kabal's symbol.


I kind of enjoy not having any symbols anywhere, I would imagine they would attack somebody  and noboby would know what Kabal they belong to.
Nice point.  My contrasting opinion is that my Dread Archon is a megalomaniac pirate and wants everyone to know who it is who has just pillaged their town.  Also, after a few raids, people should see his symbol and cower.  But they should probably be cowering from any Dark Eldar attack long before they're close enough to make out insignia on individual vehicles.  I think either approach can be justified.

Also, given the fragmented nature of DE society, not all of my vehicles get the Kabal symbol.  Some get insignia of the Wych Cult of Strife, and others get the Coven of the Prophets of Flesh (I use transfers for both of these, rather than painting freehand).  Or something else entirely.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Dark Eldar symbols
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2013, 02:35:49 PM »
I think the reason that the GW / 'Eavy Metal minis have so many symbols on them is due to the way the armour is painted.

It's all black, with edge highlights of colour. If they didn't put the symbols into the wide open spaces, it would throw the colour balance off, excessively pronouncing the black, which draws attention away from the pale skin and the bright red hair of many of the humanoid elements.

Just a thought. If you aren't using a primarily black colour scheme, you're probably ok with using fewer runes and symbols.

Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

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Re: Dark Eldar symbols
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2013, 09:58:48 PM »
I think the reason that the GW / 'Eavy Metal minis have so many symbols on them is due to the way the armour is painted.

It's all black, with edge highlights of colour. If they didn't put the symbols into the wide open spaces, it would throw the colour balance off, excessively pronouncing the black, which draws attention away from the pale skin and the bright red hair of many of the humanoid elements.

Just a thought. If you aren't using a primarily black colour scheme, you're probably ok with using fewer runes and symbols.

You are correct, I feel the same way about units, on my reavers, old and new I og nuts on freehand and weird details on them, however my flyer, I feel the need for them to be as dark as possible, you can brely see them in the sky anyway.

I enjoy painting on freehand designs and symbols, which generally leads me to try and put them on anything with a large enough blank surface.  In some cases this is my Kabal symbol, but often it is just some other symbol, often inspired by the stuff on the DE transfers or as painted by 'Eavy Metal.


I also love freehand, I did do some on my razorwing, but not my Kabals symbol. my Forgeworld ravens don't have it, why put it on my razorwing? I actually want to take my distance from the GW ones, I want mine to be darker, different from theirs. I want my flyers to look more like the planes from batman rather than what they did. 
The weird glyphs on the GW razorwings look ok to me, but I really don't like the Balck heart Kabals symbols on it.

Not on my raiders or razorwings, but I might do it on some maybe in the future.

I do go nuts on anything else, Hellions, reavers, they all need freehand on their gear!

Quote
Also, given the fragmented nature of DE society, not all of my vehicles get the Kabal symbol.  Some get insignia of the Wych Cult of Strife, and others get the Coven of the Prophets of Flesh (I use transfers for both of these, rather than painting freehand).  Or something else entirely.
I'm also going to do that, however I go a lot further.

-My coven has litterally no color sheme, I can go nuts. Heamonculi attach great importance to individuality, I figured I would follow this to 100%. Wracks and grots have no right to this though obviously, they don't even have a right to a face, though I want to make some without their masks. I figure Black would be the easiest and most effective. I've got so much to paint, why not catch a break and do it in black, it's just so much easier, less complicated and well it simply works.

-my Kabal has 2 base colors, black and purple, can be used in any sheme I desire, as long as both  or any of them is seen somewhere, some warriors can be full black, others full purple, but most are a mix of both. This to symbolise them being pirates.

-My Wych cult has something similar to my Kabal, same tow base colors, except they obvious show more flesh and they also use some metal on their armorplates, they simply enjoy more decoration on their armor, seeing as most of them are girls...

Now that I think about it, my Kabal and Coven have both a name and symbol, but I never did this for my Wych cult...something I will have to figure out someday, when I start painting the new units.

My Coven doesn't need secrecy, nobody is dumb enough to double cross a Heamonculus. Since they will be very simply done, a symbol seems easy and logic to do on them.

My Wych Cult ,like all probably feel to need to show themselves to everyone, so I'll probably have to put it on most of them.

My Kabal units, most of them won't have it, but some will.

Quote
Nice point.  My contrasting opinion is that my Dread Archon is a megalomaniac pirate and wants everyone to know who it is who has just pillaged their town.  Also, after a few raids, people should see his symbol and cower.  But they should probably be cowering from any Dark Eldar attack long before they're close enough to make out insignia on individual vehicles.  I think either approach can be justified.
Most people have replied to my view saying: An archon wants to show himself to everyone.

It is not correct, not for 100% It is true, he does want power, he does want to show how good he is, however it is not the case in all the fluff.
I'll start with all the exceptions:

- Assassinations: Do you want thme to know who tried to kill them? Oh no. Plenty of examples. Take the Battle in Commoragh itself against the Space Marine invasion, during the ascension of Vect. One enemy archon is killed by a straw Dark Lance shot, the other one is killed by Wyches turning against him, how weird?
In several cases, their own warriors are used to kill their archon (or at least try), in other cases, another Kabals symbol is used to create confusion and blame anoter Kabal.

Read the Path of the Renegade, you'll see plenty of examples of these same types of assessinations, some you can deduce who did them, some you simply can't.

-You don't want retaliation, why tell them who you are?
This has even allowed to attack the Black Heart Kabal without any consequences, not that we left any survivors anyway.

-In several cases, nothing is left anymore, why bother telling them who you are, if they're all dead? No point of having your Kabals symbol here either.

-confusion: to most imperials all eldar vehicles look alike, very fews differences between them, why not confuse them even more? 
Some corsairs are attacking some place, suddenly my Kabal pops in, join the battle, the imperials only see them as re enforcements, Corsairs are confused, Dark Eldar win!
Take a couple of Kabals who are currently attacking a world, suddenly, my Kabal pop in, nobody know who they are, before they decide to do something, it is already too late... and in the end nobody knew who the hell attacked them.

-The easiest way to stay alive in Commoragh is secrecy, no need for petty useless pride. Besides, eldar pride is not the same as human pride, the two are very different things.

No Kabals symbol, meaning you have no way to corelate any attacks, as you will probably only know these are dark eldar, but nothing else.
Take an attack on some minor Kabal, nobody will know who they were, no symbol, nothing. It is true that they could gain some reputation if they had show who they were, however, at the same time 10 other Kabals were attacked, and nobody suspects they all belong to the same Kabal, they are merely all seen as some type of mercenaries. The Bigger Kabals don't see this as a major threat, they don't react to it.

-No need for attention, No need for Vect to know. You can guess the sheer size of the Black Hearth Kabal by looking at the many banners you see everywhere in Commoragh, you go into an Arena ,you'll see a major display of loyalty towards the Black Heart Kabal. Vect simply has no idea the Dark Moon Kabal is an actualy threat to him, Khain Mor simply doesn't want attract any attention, his ambitions go far beyond Commoragh.

-full control:
Having no real display of symbol allows you to show it whether you want or not, you chose to show it to the enemy or hide it.
If my Kabal wants to show they did, they can leave symbols behind on the dead, or simply leave a couple of banners. (got several ideas for objective markers)

Truth is, the core units of my Kabal do have the symbol, the favorites of my Archon, even have his personal glyph. When I say core, I'm talking Apocalypse size. To get the Symbol is an honor, even fewer get the touch of the Archon himself. The archon himself has it, because he has nobody to hide from and nothing to fear.

The last and best:

-Fear of the unknown





BTW I'm not being stubborn about this, I'm looking for opions, open to anything as long as it makes sence.

I think it's very hard to get into the head of an archon, very hard to know why he doesn't do certain things.


« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 10:01:35 PM by Khain Mor (/kharandhil) »
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Offline Alienscar

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Re: Dark Eldar symbols
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2013, 03:28:29 PM »
I think the rule of cool applies. Every time I see one of Plastikente's freehand symbols it makes what is already a brilliantly painted model even better. Same goes for any model I see where someone has painted a freehand something or other. To me it screams talent.
On the other hand if you are asking whether or not your Archon would allow his army to have symbols displayed on his units then I have no idea. To me it is just a game and the fluff is immaterial.
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Honestly Alienscar, we get it... you dont like painting!

Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

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Re: Dark Eldar symbols
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2013, 01:06:03 PM »
blasphemy! burn this heretic!

It's mostly a painting matter for, nice to see some fluff behind it, I play plenty of games, 40k isn't my favorite by far, however I do enjoy painting more than most games I play, same goes for reading books, codices, etc...
The Dark Moon Kabal ,possibly the biggest DE army ever!
over 20k and awesome, what more do you need to click? (last updated the 02/03/2012)

Nothing better than killing a thousand slaves to wake up in the morning.

 


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