Topic: Falcon-mounted unit deployment question

[Broono]

Hi all,

Please either answer or refer me to the appropriate rulebook page for the following question.

If I want to mount a unit of Fire Dragons in a Falcon, do they all deploy together (Dragons and Falcon) as reinformements or do they have to deploy separately and then embark on the Falcon?

Thanks!

[RedTwo]

That would depend on the scenario you are playing as the deployment rules vary.  These are two seperate units on the force organization chart, and in most cases Heavy Support must deploy before Elites and Troops.  So, the Falcon will have to be placed first, and then the Dragons when section of the FOC come up.

Now, if the Falcon is deployed first, and it is in the deployment zone, then it is perfectly acceptable to deploy the Dragons in the Falcon.  If for any reason the Dragons must deploy before the Falcon, then you will to deply the Falcon seperately and embark in the movement phase of turn one.

[Zed]

Thanks for the explaination RedTwo, i have pondered the wording of that also.

One more however:  when you "deploy" the Firedragons in that situation, would you say to your opponent:  I am deploying my 5-stong Firedragons into the Falcon, and do nothing, and then make them deploy their next unit, then deploy say your Farseer (assuming it came after) also into the Falcon, they deploy their next, etc.

Or because it is already on the table you would have to deploy the Firedragons invisibly, and another unit actually onto the table, then your opponent deploys.

Hmmm, hope that made sense.  basically i am asking the actual technicalities you would do in tournament play, not friendly play.

[RedTwo]

Again, this depends on the deployment rules.  If you are supposed to alternate with your opponent, then you can not say you are putting the Dragons in the Falcon and then place another unit on the table as well.  That would be deploying two units in one turn.  You put the Dragons in the Falcon (which has no visible effect on the table) then your opponent gets his turn.

The Farseer is a sticky situation.  You can not have two units in one vehicle at one time.  The Farseer can not join the unit until the movement phase, and that does not happen until after deployment is finished.  So, by the letter of the rules, the Farseer would have to deploy out side the Falcon, join the unit in the first movment phase, and then embark the vehicle.  That stated, it is common convention to go ahead and allow the Farseer to delpoy in the vehicle even though he's technically not a part of the unit yet.  I have even seen this done at some local tournaments.  I have to admit I'm not sure what the Grand Tournament ruling is...  The best bet is to talk it over with your gaming group and come up with a ruling/convention/house rule that you can all agree to.

[Rasmus]

Whenever I want to post-embark (as it is called when the vehcile is allready on the field) I just point at the tank and go "Alakazam! Squad magically inside!" You don't actalluy have to tell your opponent what it is, as I experiences at a huge tournament a few years, fought a Chaos army consisitng of three dreads and three rhinos. No word on what was isinde. A great pain it was when I shot the second, spilling tactical chaos marines, just as the first one, knowing the third held the expesive killing-machine called the QH, and seeing it at my doorstep...

[Poseidal]

The Farseer is a sticky situation.  You can not have two units in one vehicle at one time.  The Farseer can not join the unit until the movement phase, and that does not happen until after deployment is finished.  So, by the letter of the rules, the Farseer would have to deploy out side the Falcon, join the unit in the first movment phase, and then embark the vehicle.  That stated, it is common convention to go ahead and allow the Farseer to delpoy in the vehicle even though he's technically not a part of the unit yet.  I have even seen this done at some local tournaments.  I have to admit I'm not sure what the Grand Tournament ruling is...  The best bet is to talk it over with your gaming group and come up with a ruling/convention/house rule that you can all agree to.

I think independant characters can always go into vehicles if he's on his own, even if he's not a member of the unit, as long as there is room. (for example, a terminator armoured character can't enter a rhino, because he is in terminator armour, but can enter a Land Raider, taking up two slots, leaving room for a squad of eight power armour marines or four terminators.

[RedTwo]

I think independant characters can always go into vehicles if he's on his own, even if he's not a member of the unit, as long as there is room.

That is not correct.

You can not have more than one unit a vehicle at one time.  Being an independant character does not change this.

Transports bought as a unit upgrade (such as a Rhino or Wave Serpent) can only be used by the unit it is bought for.  An Independant Character can not embark these vehicles at all unless it first joins the purchasing unit.

Again, it is a commonly used convention, even in tournaments that I'm familiar with, to go ahead and allow an IC to deploy in the vehicle even though the character and squad are two different units at that point in the game.

[DaveV]

I echo Red Two's experience.   I've attended about a dozen RT's and each one has allowed an IC to deploy with a squad in a vehicle.  

Rasmus, I would've given that oponent of yours very low sportmanship points.  I always tell my opponents what's in my various serpents and falcon, and I expect the same courtesy.  One fellow, a Swordwind player I played at last year's GenCon RT, made sure to differentiate his vehicles so I couldn't mistake the identity of their contents - he went on to win Best General, so it was no real handicap.

[biztheclown]

I actually think not knowing exactly what is in the vehicles adds to the fun.

 Our gaming group convention is that we place the vehicle and the stuff thats in it all together.   For example, I place a falcon during heavy support deployment and at the same time state, "There is an hq" or "There is an elites choice" inside the falcon.  This saves time and that way you have some information, just not the whole story.  

We also allow IC's to join their squads inside the transports at deployment.  

It just seems too stupid that the unarmored Tau ethereal  has to stand next to a tank and take first turn ordnance shots.  He is the army commander, he should not be forced to stand next to the tank until his turn.  

The problem with RedTwo's way (which is correct in its reading of the rules BTW)  is that it is just another enormous advantage given to the player who rolls to go first.  The going first player has a chance to configure their squads on the first turn, before taking any shots, but the secoond player has to weather a turn of shooting before things are set up intelligently.  

Not too cool in my opinion.

[_Spellbound_]

I don't think you should point out what's in what rhino, as long as it's written down or otherwise marked who's in what on the army list.  I'd even say it's fine to write squad markings on the rhinos, and they can figure it out that way.  But I used to always declare that, too, and my lord NEVER made it into combat.  All firepower went to him, period.  I don't think that's very sportsmanlike, either.
The enemy wouldn't know which rhino held the lord, so why should your opponent

-Spellbound

[RedTwo]

I actually think not knowing exactly what is in the vehicles adds to the fun.

I agree... as long as you trust the people you game with.

For tournament play, you should always annoince what unit is in each transport.

Just as DaveV mentioned, I have painted my Scorpion and Banshees Wave Serpents to match their Squad.  My third Wave Serpent is a little more generic since I use it for different units, but since I only have three it should be pretty obvious that it isn't Banshees or Scorpions