Topic: 1500 Antiguard list help

[mrfox]

Hi all,

I've a game coming up vs IG and have a couple of lists in mind. I'm not a very experienced 40k player but am learning fast.

I expect my opponent to use an aegis line with lots of tanks. I don't believe that he has any flyers.

Option 1 Mech
HQ
Farseer with spear on a bike

Elites
5 Fire Dragons. Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuri Cannon, Spirit Stones, Holo Fields and Star Engines

Fast Attack
6 x warpspiders, exarch with fast shot and spinneret rifle

Troops
6 Dire Avengers, Exarch with power weapon and shimmershield. Wave serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuricannon, holo-fields
10 x guardians, brightlance platform
5 x rangers
3 guardian jetbikes

Heavy Support
2 x Fire Prism Holofields, Shuri Cannon, Spirit Stones
1 x Nightspinner Holofield, Stones and star engines.

Basic Premise is that my fire prisms lance his tanks early then the dragons engage whilst the spiders pop in and out  taking targets of opportunity. Guardians and rangers sit fairly deep whilst the da jump out end game (ish) and the jetbikes hide until needed.

Option 2 Foot / wraith

HQ
Avatar with Crushing Blow and Fast Shot
Spiritseer

Elites
10 Wraithguard - wraithcannon

Fast Attack
6 Warpspiders Exarch with fastshot, marksman's eye, powerblades, spinneret rifle

Troop
10 Dire Avengers Exarch with power weapon and shimmer shield
3 x guardian jetbikes.

Heavy Support
3 x wraithlords, brightlance, scatter lasers, ghostglaive and double flamers

Basic premise is that the avatar, wraith guard and  wraith lords march together up a flank towards his aegis line. spiders annoy and dire avengers sit towards the back initially.

I don't own any more jetbikes so can't spam anymore of them sadly.

I'm leaning towards the mech build as I think I can survive his shooting with range and cover saves whilst my lances will hopefully turn his tanks into scrap. But the marching wall of death seems like fun. He can't stop them all reaching his lines

Any comments would be gratefully received.

[Irisado]

A note that your first list is mixed Eldar, not mechanised Eldar .

I strongly advise against an all infantry list against mechanised Guard.  They will blow you to pieces, and you won't have enough fast units to take the attack to them before they do so.

A mixed approach is, therefore, much better, but in my view, the proposed list needs some work.  For a start, you really need three Wave Serpents in my experience.  I suggest dropping the Nightspinner, as it's not all that effective if your opponent is going to be hiding his infantry in tanks.  This would free up some points for a third Serpent.

Next, I suggest that you either drop the Jetbikes, or take two larger squads of around six models.  This is because you need those Shuriken Cannons against mechanised Imperial Guard, both for targeting weaker side/rear armour, and for tearing apart the infantry when you've blown up their transports.  The Farseer also needs a more substantial bodyguard than three Jetbikes to keep him/her alive.

I don't recommend running the Rangers at all, they're too static for this type of mixed list.  One squad of Guardians also isn't going to achieve much with no support in my view, so that could be dropped to.  This would allow you to strengthen the Dire Avengers to a full size squad, and allow you to purchase a third scoring unit for the third Wave Serpent (Storm Guardians in an anti-tank role would be a good option).

As for the Serpents themselves, I suggest that you drop the Star Engines, and the Spirit Stones, and just focus on keeping the Holofields, and extra weapon, as these are the most useful upgrades.  You don't have enough points to load of on lots of goodies.

You could also drop the Shuriken Cannons from the Fire Prisms, as they should never be in range to be able to fire those.  You want those on the base line, acting as mobile fire support from afar.

I hope that helps.

[Koval, Master Verispex]

As a Guard player I'd be rather remiss in practicing my Tank Fu if I didn't point out that Option B has lots of big slow things that can be shot to bits -- and for what it's worth, I'd very happily have a go at stopping them all*.

Option A looks like a stronger list, but I might drop the Spirit Stones and either buy a CTM for the Night Spinner, or put some more scoring models on the table. I'm also not sure about the Star Engines on either the Night Spinner or the Fire Dragons' Wave Serpent, though putting a CTM onto the Spinner gives it a strong case for Star Engines. I'd also recommend putting a shuriken cannon in with the Jetbikes.

As Irisado pointed out, you need some more big guns of your own. The Night Spinner's a weak link of sorts, though it does give you a strong option against smaller armoured vehicles (read: Chimera hulls!) and anything with a Toughness that's hiding behind cover. The Prisms, Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders are good, but I'd say you still need more things that can threaten armour. Consider Swooping Hawks if you want something that's relatively low-profile.


*For what it's worth, I field a mechanised Guard army with a lot of plasma cannons, hence my reaction to your List B. Mech armies and the like do have some glaring weaknesses (namely, model count and scoring unit frailty), but I just want to point out that if you're expecting a lot of tanks, you should also expect a lot of firepower to be hurled in your general direction. Watch out for blast markers being chucked around like they're going out of fashion.

[mrfox]

Thanks for advice.
ok let's ignore the walking wrait / avatar list for now. Perhaps if there was a ton of cover it might work.....

anyho revamped to this

Farseer - deploy with DA

Elites
5 x fire dragons, serpent with holofields, shuri cannon and scatter lasers

Troops

2 lots of 10 x dire avengers, exarch with powerweapon + shimmershield. serpent with holofields, shuricannon and brightlances
10 x storm guardians, 2 fusion guns, serpent with holofields, shuri cannon and scatter lasers

Heavy support
2 fire prisms with holofields

Perhaps take the farseer and pop him on a bike (lose 1 exarch's weapon upgrade) give him a shining spear and let him hide at the back boosting the prisms?

[Irisado]

If you go fully mechanised without any Jetbikes, then you might find the Spiritseer more useful than the Farseer.  There are conflicting reports about this, but there is an increasingly good case for the Spiritseer in these types of lists.  You might want to try out both, and see which you prefer, and works best for you.

Other than that, it's a solid enough mechanised list, which should serve you well, providing you concentrate your attack, and don't spread your forces too thinly.

[Arquarian]

Iris has beaten me too it and said pretty much everything I was going to say. Great minds??

4 Monsterous creatures in an Eldar list is a lot of fun but the first two turns are going to hurt as you walk straight at his guns.  If you get in range and assault with enough of your force intact you may have a chance.  It maybe a lot of fun but it will be difficult to pull off a win.

so, concentrating on the first list....

I will just say that monofiliment can be quite good against the softer rear armor, (remember its stronger against low I  models) so the nightspinner may have its uses. with the star engines I have an idea of how you're planning to use it. if you can get more than one tank in the template you're laughing.

I'm guessing the jet bikes aren't really there for any offensive role, but late game objective grabbing duties, line breakers etc... They are also very capable of holding up a heavy weapons team or even taking on any 10 man infantry squad in combat for a couple of turns, effectively neutering their effect.  A more offensive role would be as Iris says get the cannons and look for the soft rear armor of the tanks the benefit of taking 2 smaller squads over a 6 man one is simply its possible to target more than one tanks at a time.

The rangers and guardians are just going to die... howwibly. Take them out and add more jetbikes and/or more Dire Avengers. Preferably More Avengers. They are much better suited to flaying any guardsmen that wander out of their Chimeras.

Arq.


[mod]I've vague-ified your post a bit, not because of stats, but because the Monofilament statement wasn't actually accurate in the context of the Night Spinner. This way, there's no inaccuracy. --Koval[/mod]

[Fenris]

Against IG there is one unit which shines clearer than all the rest, swooping hawks, they can take out a statistically equal number of guardsmen as their own number each turn, or they can take out parking lots of tanks, they can even toss grenades behind that ADL in addition.
The only unit close to them in effectiveness against IG is guardians, and then preferably stormguardians in serpents.

I also still think taking a shimmershield for the avengers when mounted,  is a waste of points, actually I think it's a waste of points period, as you are not using it enough, especially when mounted.

I can understand that you are not using hawks if you don't have the models, but otherwise there is no good reason I can find not to use them.

[mrfox]

I've tweaked the first list and am going to go with the following.
HQFarseer (jetbike + spear) Sits back helping the prisms lance tanks early game.  Can hit targets of opportunity and duck out of sight if anything gets too close
Elites
Fire Dragons 5 with fast shot exarch and firepike
Either in a serpent with holofields, cannon and scatter lasers or a falcon with the same. I guess the choice is between the serpent shield and the pulse laser... Still unsure.
Troops
2 x 10 Dire Avengers in Waveserpent with holofields, cannons and brightlances
10 x storm guardians with 2 fusion guns in serpent with holofields, cannon and scatter lasers
Heavy Support
2 Fire Prisms with Holofields.

I would love to fit some Swooping Hawks in ( I own 7 + Baharroth but am allowed to proxy if necessary.) but can't see what I'd swap out... Possibly the storm guardians and their transport and add a viper for one more lance to make up the difference in points.

However I would prefer 3 troops choices as hopefully his troops will all be dead or cowering behind his aegis late game.

I'm expecting to face at least 9 tanks and can't see the hawks surviving that long especially as they can't bounce up and down dropping large blasts in 1 turn anymore.
Anyho, thanks to all for advice. Much appreciated.

Edit having read thispost I am getting to grips with how I might use hawks. I'll go with what I've got for now and swap them in another time.

[Irisado]

I'd stick with the Wave Serpent for the Fire Dragons, since it's giving out enough fire power, and it's a bit cheaper.

I'm not convinced by the lone Farseer on the Jetbike.  I think that (s)he's a pretty soft target, especially when it comes to your opponent trying to achieve the slay the warlord objective.  If you feel that you can defend the Farseer, by all means have a go with this combination, and let us know how you get on.

Finally, as for the Swooping Hawks, I think that they are better when there is a mixture of infantry and vehicles to attack from the word go.  That's not likely against mechanised Guard in the early stages, so I'd stick with what you have.

[Koval, Master Verispex]

Leave the Hawks at home; they're in a bit of an odd position when all of your opponent's infantry models are sitting in Chimeras. They are very well-suited to dealing with either Armoured Companies or lots of infantry, and mech Guard don't really fit either of those descriptions as while you can very definitely encounter plenty of tanks that are heavier than Chimeras (and therefore more expensive), the problem is that Chimeras in a mech list are often very numerous, so the Hawks lose efficiency.

Something that Irisado and I have observed more than once (him because he's played against my own mech Guard, myself because I'm a mech Guard player) is that although the infantry are sort of a problem (because of all those weapons you can fire out of a Chimera's top hatch), you can't actually deal with them properly until they've been forced out of the vehicle. The first time I played against Iri, he made the mistake of assuming I had a less vehicle-heavy army and therefore didn't bring along many things that could threaten armour. As such, he had to deal with five Chimeras being nuisances, on top of three Russes and three Sentinels spitting plasma at him. His solution was to use Warp Spiders. It worked rather well while said Warp Spiders actually stayed on the table. (And since this was prior to the current Codex, Warp Spiders have only gotten better at dealing with armour.)

Try to put the Warp Spiders back in the list, and in any case make it your priority to deal with armour before the infantry (which will die quickly once they're outside).

[Arquarian]

As has been stated a single infantry unit in a mech list will die. Howwibly howwibly.
A single unit of spiders may take out one tank per turn and of course this is assuming they don't instantly die to all the return fire.


Problem is, is that people like your self koval know how dangerous spiders are and will therefore remove them ASAP. They fall into the same category as the lone unit of hawks.


Irisado is right. In a mixed list then fine, otherwise no.


Point of interest. I've seen in this thread and another that people are mentioning hat grenadeS can be thrown. Unfortunately this isn't the case. A grenade can be thrown. Otherwise swooping hawks would be amazing!

[Embolden]

I played against a mixed guard list the other day with this list:
Spirit Seer
5 Dire Avengers - Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
5 Dire Avengers - Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
10 Guardians - Shuriken Cannon - Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
5 Wraithguard - Wave Serpent, TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon
2 War Walkers - 4 Bright Lances
2 War Walkers - 4 Bright Lances
1 Nightspinner - Holofields
Aegis Defence Line

I managed to table the army turn6 by basically forming a pincer movement with 2 Wave Serpents on either flank, then the Spinner hiding in a corner lurking to drop it's large blast, which ignores cover, so is fantastic against grouped up Guard. The Walkers outflanked and managed to drop both the Leman Russes while the Serpents with Shield firing away made short work of the side armour of Chimeras.

I'm surprised no one has said that against your opponent with an Aegis that single BS4 shots from Fire Prisms won't be that effective?? I'm having a lot of joy out of War Walkers, which can scout forwards, move, battle focus to get into range of anything pretty much anything or outflank to get into range.

I wouldn't bother with a lone Farseer unless you have Mantle, go with an Autarch or Spirit Seer for points efficiency.