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Author Topic: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign  (Read 109539 times)

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Offline Underhand

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #280 on: March 16, 2013, 10:21:21 AM »
Apologies for the delay in posting - it appears there was a glitch either at my end or this end:



Scandalous.

The Second Stringers -v- The Black Coats

At the start of this turn, Jonah had two choices.  He could side with Gannicus and me and go after Octavian.  If he did that he would probably end up with 3 or 4 Territories of the Goliath Territories (The Mine Workings, Tunnels, and 2 Settlements to the South).  That would guarantee him a spot as one of the last three gangs in the campaign. 

Instead, he attacked Gannicus's Spore Cave.  He'd wanted that territory for a long time, and could have taken it long ago.  As things played out, Gannicus ended up with it, and Jonah felt betrayed.  He felt it was his by right and he had come to take it back.

He rationalised that decision to me on the basis that by wiping Octavian off the map, he would just be helping me and Gannicus to grow stronger before we both ganged up on him and destroyed him.  He figured that he would be better off fighting Gannicus on his own (since he can't attack me) and let me and Joffrey destroy each other.   What an idiot.  He has all the strategic nous of a gnat.

I can't say in any definitive sense what would have happened if it had come down to Gannicus, Jonah and me as the last three factions in the campaign, because nothing is certain, but put yourself in this position:

You are a player in a three way competition.  You are player A and have a 40% chance of winning due to a combination of resources and skill.  Player B is in a similar position to you and also has a 40% chance of winning.  Player C on the other hand is a bit of a noob and speaks with a ridiculous accent and has a 20% chance of winning.

Would you choose to:

1)  side with Player B (40%) against Player C (20%), combine your resurces at 80%, kick C's arse and divide up his territory between the both of you and fight out the final stages of the campaign against B at 50/50 odds; or
2)  side with Player C, combine your resources at 60%, defeat Player B, divide his territories between you and then fight Player C at 60/40 odds (or probably better in your favour since Player C probably wouldn't grab as many territories off Player B as you?

We'll never know which way things might have gone if Jonah had chosen differently, and obviously Gannicus and I are friends, but . . . none of us are still playing this campaign after all this time to take out second place.

But what's done is done.  Jonah made his choice and the dice are in the air.

The first chip would fall either with Jonahg fionally taking the Spore Cave or Gannicus taking Jonah's Workshop.

Van Saar are widely regarded as the strongest gang, and it's not hard to work out why.  Their core skills are Shooting and Techno.  Shooting Gangs have an advantage over Close Combat gangs because it is easier to stand and shoot than manouver a ganger over several turns into close combat, especially in a game with Overwatch.  Techno is valuable because it has so many nice skills.  Specialist means that by the late stages of a campaign, a Van Saar gang will be full of flamers, plasma guns and grenade launchers, whereas other gangs will only have 2 heavies and a leader that can carry heavy or special weapons.  Inventor means that the gang will have lots of neat little extras that they don't have to pay for.  Armourer and Weaponsmith  means that those dodgy bolters, hotshot lasguns, unreliable flamers and multi shot plasma guns, and heavy stubbers won't run out of ammo.  Fixer simply results in extra income every turn and medic means that serious injuries occur much less rarely - it also stops people from dying, so the longer a campaign goes on, Van Saar gangs not only outnumber other gangs due to fewer deaths, but have more deadly gang members because Medic skills are usually used on the best and brightest of the gang first (Abraham is only still around thanks to my Medics). There is a reason why I always roll on the Techno skill table when I get the chance.

The third Van Saar skill is Combat, which makes them more effective in close combat (duh).  Unfortunately, without Agility skills to deliver them into melee, Van Saar will never be a proper close combat gang, but having access to Combat skills mean that they will never crumble in close combat the way that, say, Delaque will.  In a well developed Van Saar gang, there will be 2 or three guys with enough Combat skills to at least blunt the charge of a Goliath/Escher Cawdor adversary long enough to allow the rest of the gang n extra turn or two of deadly shooting.

All that means is that Van Saar are able to shoot down Escher, Cawdor and Goliath Gangs before they do too much damage in close combat.  They can also usually out shoot Orlock Gangs (Shooting/Ferocity/Combat) because Techno Skills grant more shooting power than Ferocity grants sticking power.  Van Saar/Orlock fights seldom result in much close combat. 

It's different with Delaques though.  Delaques are the bogey gang for Van Saar. 

Both gangs are shooting gangs.  Van Saar are Techno/Shooting/Combat and Delaques are Stealth/Shooting/Agility.  The fights will take place at range.  Van Saar have the skill up close, but they will never make it into combat, because they are too slow, and the Delaques are fast enough to run away.  That means that one of the core Van Saar skills is taken out of play, and any flamers they have mean much less than usual.

By contrast, Stealth is more useful against a ranged gang.  Ambush, Dive and Evade all cushion against the impact of incoming enemy fireInfiltration is just an all round good skill that opens up alternate firelanes.  All  are all good skills for a shooting gang to be able to deploy against another shooting gang.

For all their firepower, Van Saar are also probably the most brittle gang.  None of their skills help to mitigate damage.  Escher and Delaque have Stealth skills which stop the hits from landing, Cawdor, Orlock and Goliath have Ferocity which absorb the damage from the hits.  Van Sarr take the hits on the chin.  It is for this reason that Iron Will is a vital skill for any Van Saar leader, but Jonah is new to the game and he hasn't learned that lesson yet.  His leader has a combination of Shooting and Close Combat skills.  He might as well be an Orlock.

Apart from that, and probably most tellingly, his guys aren't as good as the Black Coats.  Gannicus (when not banned from the store) has been fighting 2 games a week.  For a long time, Jonah was only playing once a week.  As a result, the Black Coats are more experienced than the Second Stringers.  The Second Stringers are good at Shooting, but the Black Coats are good at shooting and have a variety of Agility and Stealth skills mixed in as well.

So, all things considered, I don't like Jonah's chances.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 10:26:14 AM by Underhand »

Offline skoops6

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #281 on: March 17, 2013, 03:44:02 AM »
Praise the lord, Underhand is back! It amuses me that in the photo you attached, the sign up link is directly beneath the ban notification. "We banned you, but feel free to sign up under a different name and continue causing havoc!". Some interesting points about the Delaques, looking forward to seeing how this will turn out. good to have you back!
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Offline Underhand

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #282 on: March 17, 2013, 05:47:31 AM »
Thank you Skoops6.  It's good to be back.

Anyway, Jonah got to pick the scenario and picked a Gang Fight. 

Jonah did his usual thing and set up his 14 guys in a standard castle formation.  Heavy, hotshot marksman, Bolter Marksman and 2 plasma gunners  on the third level.  3 lasgunners and his leader on the second level and 2 flamer guys on the bottom floor.  2 gunfighters and a Juve with an autopistol in the vents.

Gannicus was a bit more dynamic in his set up.  Heavy, Bolter marksman and two lasgun fodder in an elevated position (all leadership 8 ) on the third level.  Then two groups at ground level - 2 shotgunners (both leadership 6) and Smiling Sam in the middle in one group and 2 shotgunners and Flaming Moe in the other to the left.  He had his close combat specialist and 2 shotgunners in his Vent team.  He had a single Infiltrator, which he put in a flanking position, up high to the right of the Delaque position.  By turn 3 Gannicus would have the Van Saar more or less surrounded on 3 sides.

Turn 1

Jonah got the first turn and moving his plasma gunners to the edge of the tower, fired his top level at Gannicus's top level (4 Heavy Stubber shots, 4 Heavy Plasma shots, a Bolter round and a shot from a Hotshot lasgun shot), taking both lasgunners out of action and wounding Gannicus's Heavy Stubber and Bolter Bill.  In doing so however, his Heavy Stubber went out of ammo.  Running out of Ammo is always embarrassing for Van Saar, who are basically the dwarfs of Necromunda, and normally have half a dozen armourers in their gangs.  He also exhausted his plama guns for a turn, giving Gannicus's shotgun teams an extra turn to run into position.

He put his second level lasgunners on Overwatch facing the Infiltrator, who would have to move to get into line of sight of any of the Van Saar.

At the end of his turn, he deployed his Vent team on the second level of the tower next to the tower on which Bolter Bill and the Heavy Stubberist were lying prone.

At the end of his first turn, with the Delaque ranged team lying bleeding on the floor, Jonah probably felt pretty confident, and I know that some onlookers took the view that Gannicus was in trouble, but it is foolish to praise the day before the sun has set and Gannicus had not so much as rolled a dice in anger.

On his turn, Gannicus ran Smiling Sam's team forward down the middle of the table.  To the left, he ran Flaming Moe's team forward as well.  He managed one hipshot at an Overwatching lasgunner which pinned him.

In Necromunda, a fighter with multiple wounds who is pinned cannot recover from pinning unless  they are within 2" of another gang member who is not down or out of action.  Both Gannicus's Stubberist and Bolter Bill are multiwound characters and both recovered from pinning.  And both were able to shoot that turn.  Obviously, Jonah isn't a complete idiot, and had dropped his Vent team into position out of sight of Bolter Bill and the Delaque Stubberist.  Given that his guys can move and shoot, this was basic common sense.

The problem for him was  that the table that Gannicus suggested they play on had 5 three level towers.  One big one on Jonah's side, a big one in the middle of the table, to the left (where the Delaque Infiltrator was placed), two on the Delaque side (now occupied one each by Delaque and Van Saar) and one in the middle just forward of the tower on Which Jonah had placed his Vent team.  Gannicus placed two vent shotgunners (one with Rapid fire) on that last tower.  Doing that put Jonah's Vent team in a cross fire between 2 shotgunners  on one side and a Heavy Stubber and Bolter Bill on the other side. 

Gannicus deployed the Close Combat specialist to the right on the second level, 10 inches away and out of sight of the Van Saar.

Gannicus moved Bolter Bill back 4" and took a shot at the Van Saar Bolter Marksman, taking him down.  He moved his Stubberist back a couple of inches and went into hiding.

Turn 1: Up/Down/Out
Second Stringers :  14/0/0
Black Coats:  13/0/2

 
Turn 2

On Turn 2, of Jonah's main battery on his third level, the heavy stubber was out of ammo( and only had a laspistol as backup) and the plasma guns were recharging so only the hotshot marksman could shoot and he missed Bolter Bill. 

The Vent team elected to divide their fire between Bolter Bill and the Vent team shotgunners.  I think that was a mistake.  Jonah should have manouvered around the central pilar at the top of the tower to only be in LOS of one lot of targets or the other and concentrated fire on them, taken them out then moved around to the other side on the next turn.  As it was, he didn't do that, and things didn't work out well for him.

He managed to wound Bolter Bill, taking him down, but he only pinned the shotgunners.

Back at the castle, Jonah set his leader and his seond level lasgunners on Overwatch, dividing them between  the Infiltrator and Smiling Sam's shotgun team.

With the Van Sar Heavy Stubber out of action, and both plasma guns on cool down, Gannicus had the luxury of having a turn to get his shotgunners into position without having to worry about anything more than a hotshot lasgun, two autopistols (on flamer guys, which were out of range in any event) and a plasma pistol.  There was plenty of cover in the middle of the table, and only 2 Delaques got hit and only one was a wound, which was only enough to pin him.

Gannicus was able to shoot with 2 members of his shotgun team (Smiling Sam and Dapper Dan, and managed to wound one flamer guy and pin the other.   This would be telling because the flamer guys were spaced wide apart, each guarding a ladder up to the second level, and would only recover from pinning at the end of Jonah's next turn.

The Infiltrator (Shady Shamus) stayed in cover and went into hiding, wasting the Van Saar Overwatch.

Over at the Delaque side of the table, Jonah had two gunfighters Peeter, and Miichael (Jonah doesn't spell them that way, but I feel it's appropriate) and Fredeerick the Juve.  Peeter has a botl pistol and a plasma  pistol and BS5 making him one of the scarier gangers in the campaign, Miichael has twin auto pistols and BS4 making himpretty dangerous at any range under 8" and reasonably effective otherwise.  Fredeerick has an autopistol.  But he tries hard.

Bolter Bill was down, but that still left a Heavy Stubber and two shotgunners (who both recovered from pinning) to deal with 3 vent gangers with 4 wounds between them.

Gannicus has played a lot of Necromunda and he knows what order to shoot his guys in (knows what order in which to shoot his guys? [Sorry - I might be dating an English teacher later this week]).  So he opened up with one of the shotgunners (Fast Pat) who was packing frag grenades. 

Needless to say, given the relatively cramped confines of a Necromunda tower, that beslubbered the Van Saar Vent team, all were pinned and Miichael and Peeter were wounded, with Peeter going down.  Fredeerick and Miichael both passed their morale checks, but that just meant that Machine Gun Max got to open up on both of them.  He only fired three shots, but that was enough to take Michael out of action.  Peeter had been unscathed to that point, but a double shotgun blast from Pistol Pete (he also has a couple of pistols) took him down.

Turn 2: Up/Down/Out
Second Stringers :  11/2/1
Black Coats:  12/1/2


Offline SnipingSnowman

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #283 on: March 17, 2013, 05:01:20 PM »
Not finishing the game in one post?!

Underhand!! You tease!! :-[
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Offline Leeroy_002

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #284 on: March 18, 2013, 01:57:56 AM »
Things do not look good for our young heroes...

Offline Underhand

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #285 on: March 18, 2013, 03:18:45 AM »
Not finishing the game in one post?!

Underhand!! You tease!! :-[

Although I'm not above the occasional flirty cliff hanger, in this case it was just a word count issue.  Thank you for dropping in with a quick reply.

Turn 3

Jonah passed his morale check and with his plasma guns fully charged was ready to wreak vengeance on the Delaque for the loss of his Vent team.

Jonah moved His Heavy Stubber(laspistol) guy to stand in front of his plasma gunners who both unloaded with onto the Delaque along with all his lasgunners.  One Delaque Shotgunner from Smiling Sam's team was taken down (a couple of plasma hits will do that) and another wounded and pinned along with 2 others.

Another Van Saar went on Overwatch to protect against Shady Shamus, and that was it for the Van Saar.

With no Van Saar on Overwatch, Gannicus seized the advantage.  Two of his shotgunners recovered from pinning and he moved his forward teams within 18"-14" of the Van Saar. 

Back at the Delaque end of the table, Bolter Bill stayed down, but Machinegun Max rotated 90 degrees and set his sights on the Van Saar castle.

Pistol Pete dropped down one level and ran along a gangplank towards the Van Saar castle.  Fast Pat targetted the downed Van Saar vent team and  descended two levels and used Catfall to drop the last level to get to the floor unscathed.

To the left (on the Van Saar right flank), the Van Saar close combat specialist Steely Sam dropped to the ground floor and ran into heavy cover.

In the Delaque shooting phase, Machine Gun Max opened up on the Van Saar castle wounding the Heavy Laspistol guy and pinning a plasma gunner.

Smiling Sam had better luck, taking down a lasgunner on the second level and pinning the Van Saar leader.

Then Gannicus opened up with his shotgunners.  And this was when Gannicus's Van Saar strategy came into play. 

Jonah has a 24" gang.  Apart from a couple of marksmen and his heavy stubber and his vent team and flamer guys, everyone shoots at 24" and has a +1 bonus if shooting at a target under 12".  His tactics are to castle in his deployment zone, outshoot the other side at long range and deploy his vent team to pick off any targets of opportunity.  He has 2 flamers waiting for anyone who gets close.

Gannicus knows this and has spent the last couple of turns rearming his gang with shotguns.  Gannicus has 15 guys and 9 of them have shotguns.  Shotguns have a maximum range of 18" which obviously gives the first couple of turns to Jonah.  But after that, the advantage switches.  Shotguns can load up with several different types of ammunition, one of which is cattershot, which comes standard, and ignores penalties for targets in cover (albeit with a -1 for targets at greater than 4"). 

Given that Jonah keeps most of his guys in heavy cover, this means that in any firefight taking place between 12" and 18", The Black Coats will have a +1 to hit advantage over the Second Stringers.

So in Gannicus's shooting phase, his shotgunners were able to pin pin both flamer guys and a lasgunner and wound the Van Saar leader, taking him down.

Turn 3: Up/Down/Out
Second Stringers :  9/3/2
Black Coats:  11/2/2

Turn 4


Jonah passed his bottle check. 

Jonah didn't move his gang and just opened up on the Delaques, but with half his gang pinned and his heavy stubber and plasma gunners unable to shoot, there wasn't much he could do.  He pinned a couple of shotgunners and Smiling Sam.

Gannicus passed his bottle check.

Smiling Sam and one of the shotgunners recovered from pinning.  The close combat Specialist sprinted into charge range of a downed Van Saar Lasgunner.  Smiling Sam and a couple of Shotgunners threaded their way through cover towards the pinned Van Saar flamer guys.  On the left Flaming Moe did the same.

Pistol Pete clambered up to the second story of the tower with the downed Van Saar Vent Team.  Fast Pat ran up behind a tower in the middle of the table, within shotgun range, but outside line of sight of the Van Saar.

In the shooting phase, Gannicus had 4 shotgunners and his leader able to shoot at the Van Saar, and that's what he had them do, 6 shots pinning 4 Van Saar, but causing no casualties.

Machine Gun Max made up for that though, taking six shots at the top level of the Van Saar, taking down a plasma gunner, pinning the other one and missing the Heavy Laspistol guy.

Turn 2: Up/Down/Out
Second Stringers :  8/4/2
Black Coats:  11/2/2

Turn  5


Jonah passed his bottle check.  His plasma gunner went out of action.

A couple of lasgunners recovered from pinning, and they shot at the Delaques, but they were shooting at targets in cover, and Gannicus had been sure to  have the gang members who still had wounds to spare at the front, but they still took down one guy.

Gannicus passed his morale check.

Steely Stan, the Delaque close Combat Specialist charged into close combat with a Van Sarr Lasgunner.

Smiling Sam charged into CC with a flamer guy.

Pistol Pete made it to the top of the tower which housed the Van Saar Vent team, and made it into base to base contact with Fredeerick.

The Infiltrator out to the left took a shot at the Van Saar Heavy and took him down.

Machinegun Max took another shot at the Van Saar castle and pinned the lasgunner and the remaining plama gunner, but went out of ammo.

The remaining Van Saar shotgunners spent their turn shooting at the remaining Van Saar lasgunners and flamer guy.  The remaining flamer guy eventually went out of action after taking 2 shotgun hits and a blast of promoethium from Flaming Moe.

In the close combat phase, Steely Stan auto removed the Delaque lasgunner.  Pistol Pete also auto removed Fredeerick.

The only proper combat was between the Van Saar Flamer guy (who had only just graduated from being a Juve) and Smiling Sam, and there was nearly a 300pt experience gap between the two of them.  So that went the only way it was going to go.

Turn 5: Up/Down/Out
Second Stringers :  4/4/6
Black Coats:  10/3/2


Turn 6

Jonah passed his morale check, but with only a single guy who could shoot that turn, and several Delaque within charge/auto remove range of his gang members, including his Leader, he took the smart option and voluntarily bottled out, and Gannicus took his Workshop.

Offline SnipingSnowman

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #286 on: March 18, 2013, 08:28:43 AM »
Wow, that turned into a massacre very, very quickly. Jonah's up amphetamine parrot creek without a paddle, and you and Gannicus are both far more experienced than he is.

I'm quite curious as to what the tables are like - I'd love to see pictures! Is there any way we could get a few?
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Offline Leeroy_002

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #287 on: March 18, 2013, 10:13:20 AM »
Wow, that turned into a massacre very, very quickly. Jonah's up amphetamine parrot creek without a paddle, and you and Gannicus are both far more experienced than he is.

well Jonah could learn from this lesson and change up his game plan.If he had gotten with in 12" but stayed outside of 4" he would be getting that +1 to hit for short range on a lasgun while shotguns would still be sucking on -1 to hit. Also, I feel that the Heavy stubber going out of ammo hadn't done so, that may have changed the outcome some. Losing a heavy weapon system on turn 1-2 is very harsh.

Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #288 on: March 18, 2013, 12:32:32 PM »
As always exciting times in necromunda!

Shotguns are king, I like how you can pick a different ammo to shoot with after running out the first one! And with bolt shells its almost as good as a bolter.
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Offline Leeroy_002

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #289 on: March 18, 2013, 08:32:32 PM »
As always exciting times in necromunda!

Shotguns are king, I like how you can pick a different ammo to shoot with after running out the first one! And with bolt shells its almost as good as a bolter.

Uhhhh... no you can't. the ammo roll represents more then just running out of ammo, it also represents weapon malfunctions. Jam up/Run out of ammo/Malfunction with one type of round the weapon is useless for the rest of the game regardless of the number of different types of rounds that you have.

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #290 on: March 19, 2013, 01:12:03 PM »
i see, I guess my group played that wrong back in the day! (Umm 2001 I think)
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Offline MingVas

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #291 on: March 20, 2013, 10:51:26 PM »
Is the consensus genuinely that Van Saar is the most powerful gang?  I've heard it argued that the title of "most powerful" falls to Delaque, Van Saar, Escher, and/or Cawdor (specifically if hand flamers aren't nerfed). . .
(my point being that there doesn't appear to be a consensus)

Personally, I'd like a cross between the Van Saar and the Delaque. . . Techno, Shooting, and Agility. . . plus access to bolt guns on their house weapons list. . . that would be one munchkin'ed gang.

Offline Leeroy_002

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #292 on: March 21, 2013, 06:29:41 AM »
Is the consensus genuinely that Van Saar is the most powerful gang?  I've heard it argued that the title of "most powerful" falls to Delaque, Van Saar, Escher, and/or Cawdor (specifically if hand flamers aren't nerfed). . .
(my point being that there doesn't appear to be a consensus)

Personally, I'd like a cross between the Van Saar and the Delaque. . . Techno, Shooting, and Agility. . . plus access to bolt guns on their house weapons list. . . that would be one munchkin'ed gang.

well its arguable, they are definitely one of the strongest out of the six houses. the main reason for Van Saar having earn that reputation is because ALL of its members can roll on the Techno skills fresh out the gate. This means that Juves after a few games often have one or two levels with an average of half of them being able to roll for a skill. That means that in as little as three games it is quit possible for a Van Saar gang to amass three or four armorers, medics and specialist etc.  That means that you now have a gang that can afford and wield up to 4-6 plasmaguns, thanks to Fixer and Specialist, with several IMPROVED re-rolls on ammo test, thanks to Weapons Smith and Armorer AND the experience gang members that do get hit are far less likely to be wounder or die do to the medic skill which means that you save credit on having to rehire new blood for the meat grinder which in turn means that you can also afford more items from the trading post. Not to mention that you can with 1 in 6 odds per post game earn a 'free' item with a model with Inverter. 

Is that ALWAYS going to happen with a Van Saar gang? No, but I like the odds. This also means that If my Juves are rolling on the Techno skill that frees up the Heavies and leader to roll on other skill tables like Combat or Shooting instead of postponing them for the Techno skills like other gangs have to, thus making them more effective.

Offline Underhand

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #293 on: March 22, 2013, 07:31:55 AM »
Leeroy_002 pretty much nailed it.

The Techno skill tree is just very, very good.

Because of Techno skills, Van Saar gangs have much more reliable weapons, which allows them to use bolt weapons, grenades, flamer weapons, and multi shot weapons with much greater confidence than other gangs.  Obviously, with access to Shooting skills, they are also good shots.

Specialist lets juves or gangers use special weapons (plasma guns, flamers, melta guns, grenade launchers), which are normally only available for heavies and leaders.  So Van Saar gangs not only run out of ammo less often, but they tend to be shooting with more dangerous weapons. 

Techno skills also make a gang more money.  Fixer can make a significant difference to a gang's base income and inventor just simply gives you free stuff.  Often, quite expensive and effective free stuff.

Techno also makes Van Saars resistant to injury with the Medic skill, which allows a reroll on the serious injury chart.  Van Saar don't die as often and the injuries they have tend to not be as bad as those of other gangs.  Medic becomes more and more valuable the longer a campaign progresses, because saving a gang member with 400exp with a bolter, chainsword and frag grenades is obviously a bigger deal than saving a 25exp new recruit with a lasgun.

All of the above taken together mean that Van Saar gangs start to dominate from the mid game onwards.

Escher are often considered a top tier gang as well because the sublime combination of Agility, Stealth and Combat together with easy access to swords make them so good at getting into close combat and dominating it.  Stealth, Combat and Agility are also a great combination for a lot of scenarios like Ambushes, Raids, Hit & Run, and even Scavengers.  Swords give the parry ability, and Necromunda close combat is parry centric.  Other gangs have to spend rare trade opportunities to pick up swords, which means that it could take a Cawdor or Goliath gang 5 or 6 turns to be able to equip all their guys with swords.  Escher can start the campaign that way.

Delaque are a mid tier gang along with Cawdor and Orlock.  Both Cawdor and Orlock compete well against Delaque because their Ferocity gives them extra sticking power against the Delaque guns.  The resilience of Orlock Ferocity evens out against Delaque stealthiness.  Cawdor are fast and ferocious enough to be able to get into close combat with Delaques and even up the hits they took on the way in.

However, Delaques are extra effective against Van Saar.  Their Stealth skills help to nullify the potent firepower that Van Saar typically wield. Their Agility skills also help them maneuver around slower moving Van Saar, and nullifies the Van Saar combat skills.  Unlike other gangs the Van Saar can be pretty brittle.  Without Ferocity or Stealth skills, they have little ability to mitigate damage.

Cawdor can definitely run away with a campaign if hand flamers aren't nerfed.  Everyone always nerfs hand flamers though.

Goliaths just suck.

Offline Leeroy_002

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #294 on: March 22, 2013, 08:00:10 AM »
I would like to add that much of what I said doesn't change much if you use the CE rules either. The Techno skill is a little more balanced, but the major difference is that swords are common to all the close combat gangs and cost 15cr so Escher loses some of its early game advantage.  Also the muscle skill table gets a HUGE facelift and no longer sucks... in fact one may even say that its on par if not a little better than the combat skill table.

For example Iron Jaw, which sucks big flompy donkey dick in the living rules, is replaced with a +6 armor save in the CE rules that can be combined with other armor rolls. So a model equipped with mesh armor (+5 armor) and the Iron Jaw skill (+6 armor) would have a  +4 armor combined roll. Pretty nice huh?

Underhand I bet that just makes you wish you were using the EC rules, seeing as you rolled on the muscle table  for bulging biceps.... twice.What did you end up getting again when you rolled on that? Oh yah!  It was IRON JAW!

Well fancy that.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 08:08:45 AM by Leeroy_002 »

Offline CardinalCrimson

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #295 on: March 22, 2013, 07:03:20 PM »
Had to make an account just to say how awesome this thread is. It's nice to see my favourite game still has a following.

I must also say thanks for influencing a number of my friends to try a similar campaign. Out of interest how would you implement outlaws on the map (specifically redemptionists) as one of the players wishes to use them, despite this being his first ever campaign.

Also it would be interesting to know your plans for the rest of the campaign. I know you'd planned on taking out the Goliaths to the south but has this changed? with gannicus occupied by jonah in the east you have an opportunity to weaken or eliminate the delaque, probably your closest rivals.

Offline MingVas

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #296 on: March 22, 2013, 09:29:33 PM »
Last campaign I did, we did not Nerf the Hand Flamers. . . they weren't a huge issue.

Regarding the Techno Skills, we've always played that Armourer, Fixer, Inventor, and Medic can't be used by a ganger who went out in the previous battle (IE anyone who had to roll on the serious injury table regardless of result).  Additionally, Armourers and Inventors couldn't use their skill and work a territory during the same turn. 

We saw those as just "common sense", but I suppose they really were house rules that nerfed the techno skill table. . . Van Saar did not end up with all that much money, and the ability of Cawdor and Escher to steal Van Saar territories in the early game combined with Delaque's unique advantages against Van Saar really removed what you guys are describing.  Switching to bolt weapons was risky, because you may go into one battle with 3 armourers. . . and the next with one or none.

Post Merge: March 22, 2013, 09:33:36 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

It's worth noting that reducing the strength of an attack by 1 and getting a 6+ armor save are statistically identical in 90% of cases. . . all the community edition did was extend the bonus beyond just HtH into all hits.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:33:36 PM by MingVas »

Offline Leeroy_002

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #297 on: March 23, 2013, 12:36:03 AM »

It's worth noting that reducing the strength of an attack by 1 and getting a 6+ armor save are statistically identical in 90% of cases. . . all the community edition did was extend the bonus beyond just HtH into all hits.

That is a HUGE difference mechanically speaking; and I would go as far as to say that the differences is larger then just 10%, or 90% identical.

1) As you stated it works outside of H2H, that's already hugely difference. I'd say the majority of the game is shooting. (Situationally dependent)
2) Its now a flat +6 armor save, meaning less math involved with adjusting the strength/toughness wounding roll of every weapon fired/swung vs. said model, compared to "did you wound me with that lasgun? well ok I get my 6+ armor save now, hope I roll a 6!"
3) As an armor save it can be combined with other armor saves for greater effect and again, its simpler. Carapace armor (4+) plus Bionic chest (6+) plus Iron Jaw (6+) would give you a 2+ armor roll. Throw in a force field and watch the tears roll into your cup. 
4) On the negative side, the CE Iron Jaw is now affected by armor save mod from anything stronger then a lasgun or S3 model. That means that with the CE there will be times where it will be statistically worse then Living Rules.
 For example:
 "how about that S4  -2 save mod Chain Sword and S4 -1 save mod bolt pistol that my leader is wielding? What does that sound like again" 
"...well it may sou-"
"IT SOUND LIKE NO ARMOR SAVE FOR YOUUuzzZZZzUZzz Bbu Bbu Bbu BuZUZzzZZZZ Bbu Bbu Bbu BUuzzzZZUZuuZZzzzZZ zz"

Offline Underhand

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #298 on: March 23, 2013, 04:19:42 AM »
Had to make an account just to say how awesome this thread is. It's nice to see my favourite game still has a following.

I must also say thanks for influencing a number of my friends to try a similar campaign. Out of interest how would you implement outlaws on the map (specifically redemptionists) as one of the players wishes to use them, despite this being his first ever campaign.

Also it would be interesting to know your plans for the rest of the campaign. I know you'd planned on taking out the Goliaths to the south but has this changed? with gannicus occupied by jonah in the east you have an opportunity to weaken or eliminate the delaque, probably your closest rivals.

Thank you Cardinal.

If we were starting from the beginning, I would let the Outlaws start the campaign on any tile not occupied by another gang.  If they were to be slotted in afterwards, then I would just let them nominate a tile and roll a dice.  If it comes up 6, then they get to start there, otherwise they have to nominate a tile next to it and roll again and so forth until they get a 6.

Since the campaign relies on gangs accumulating territory to determine a winner, I would say that Outlaws can take multiple territory like any other gang, but they can only work territory in accordance with their special territory rules.  This represents the Outlaws dominating an area, but not necessarily being able to control it like a non Outlaw gang.

In addition to that, any territory that the Outlaws take automatically gets converted into an Outlaw territory.  If a house gang retakes a territory, then they can work it, but it takes a turn to convert it back to what it was.  That represents the time it takes a regular House Gang to clean up all the clear out the Outlander ne'er do wells/ clean up the scavy amphetamine parrot/unbrainwash the redemptionist converts/take down the Spyrer trophy racks and just generally let the old inhabitants move back in and reestablish their old businesses and communities.

As regards the issue of my future strategy - well, if I was going to betray Gannicus, I obviously wouldn't talk about it on the internet before I did it.

In any event, it doesn't seem like a prudent strategy.  Of the 3 remaining players (I am assuming I will see Joffrey off this turn), I am more or less allied with Gannicus, neutral with Jonah (we can't take hostile action against each other even if we were so inclined), and enemies with Octavian.  Turning on Gannicus would make an enemy of him and leave Octavian free from harassment and likely have disastrous consequences.  I imagine the conversation would go like this:

Underhand:  I'm attacking Gannicus's Friendly Doc!
Gannicus:  You rather unsavoury chap, what-ho old bean?!  Did all that free cocaine I gave you count for nothing?
Underhand:  It wasn't real cocaine, and I'm afraid it counted for very little.
Gannicus:  You'll pay for this, you overdressed son-of-a-be-atch!
Octavian:  Hey, Gannicus, would you like me to help you kill Underhand?
Gannicus:  YES!
Octavian:  ... In the campaign, I mean...
Gannicus:  Oh ... YES!

Fighting Gannicus and Octavian at the same time would mean fighting 3 games per turn against 2 powerful gangs.  It would be hard to avoid a similar fate to what Joffrey has suffered.


Last campaign I did, we did not Nerf the Hand Flamers. . . they weren't a huge issue.

Regarding the Techno Skills, we've always played that Armourer, Fixer, Inventor, and Medic can't be used by a ganger who went out in the previous battle (IE anyone who had to roll on the serious injury table regardless of result).  Additionally, Armourers and Inventors couldn't use their skill and work a territory during the same turn. 

We saw those as just "common sense", but I suppose they really were house rules that nerfed the techno skill table. . . Van Saar did not end up with all that much money, and the ability of Cawdor and Escher to steal Van Saar territories in the early game combined with Delaque's unique advantages against Van Saar really removed what you guys are describing.  Switching to bolt weapons was risky, because you may go into one battle with 3 armourers. . . and the next with one or none.

Post Merge: March 22, 2013, 09:33:36 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

It's worth noting that reducing the strength of an attack by 1 and getting a 6+ armor save are statistically identical in 90% of cases. . . all the community edition did was extend the bonus beyond just HtH into all hits.

I believe that some of the FAQs restrict the use of the off table Techno skills to fighters who didn't go out of action at the end of the previous game.  In this campaign, given that in an average campaign turn, a gang will play two games and get only a single postgame sequence, we lifted those restrictions.

The CE rules cut down on the power of Techno skills quite a bit - especially Armourer.  With the nerfs to the Shooting skills (which are overpowered in the official rules), Van Saar are brought back to the pack.


Offline MingVas

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Re: Rules for a Necromunda Campaign
« Reply #299 on: March 23, 2013, 09:52:50 AM »
Regarding Iron Jaw, I was speaking statistically. . .

Unless the weapon strength/ganger toughness ration is in the fringes of the "to-wound" chart, then a minus 1 to the attack strength gives a 1/6 chance of the iron jaw being the difference between a wound and a non-wound.  (for a toughness 3 ganger, the 6+ save is only better against weapons of strength 6 or better and for a toughness 4 character it only provides a benefit at weapon strengths of 7 or better)  At least 90% of hits will fall below those levels.

Also worth noting:  Assuming no save modifiers, taking a 6+ armor save and a 5+ armor save separately is the same as taking one 4+ save.

I acknowledged that the extension of iron jaw to non HtH attacks is a major benefit, but the ability of an attacker to nullify it with an armor save hugely weakens it.  In the end it's not that much more powerful than the standard rules.

(We should probably move this discussion to another thread. . . I hate to dilute the awesomeness that underhand is posting here!)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 09:54:44 AM by MingVas »

 


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