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Offline Saim-Dann

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Are Eldar overpowered?
« on: April 26, 2017, 12:28:35 AM »
Have had this debate in another thread and decided if I want to have my full say, I have to start my own.

I was introduced to 40K in 2nd ed. Bought a Space Marine army like everybody else, but the Eldar fascinated me so I bought some of them as well. At the time everybody else had their tanks, trucks, buggies and bikes. Eldar only had their jetbikes. They have finally caught up with everybody else.

Had a break from our hobby in the 4th ed and came back towards the end of 6th. Lost eight games in a row till I re-learnt how to wield my pointy ears. Since then have won/lost as many games with the Eldar as my Doggies and Nids.

My opinion is because of their weak strength/toughness, lack of assault vehicles and mesh armour they require more strategy than most other armies. Would love the shuriken catapults to be 24" range. It's because of these stats that the Eldar are masters of the psychic powers.

I don't understand the hate for Eldar. Have never heard the words, "overpowered" or "broken", from people who have beaten Eldar on a regular basis. I have never beaten Necrons... yet! It would be easy to throw my hands in the air and claim overpowered. However, I don't like easy. Looking forward to clash with the Necrons again. Love a challenge! Plus when I finally work them out, the victory will be that much more sweeter.

This is just my humble opinion. I understand everybody has theirs... Please indulge!

Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2017, 04:17:14 AM »
I also started out in 2nd edition and Eldar were my first and only army until the Dark Eldar got their first proper Codex. I look back to these days with fond memories of a single Warpspider Exarch slicing through half an Imperial Army, Reapers that reduce whole Squads of Marines and Termies before they got to do anything (loved those melta missiles) and of course, Banshees, hacking through stuff without the fear of something being able to hit back. Glorious times. 3rd saw the infamous 5 Guardians + Starcannon spam, then came Flying Circus, Wave Serpent Spam and now its Scatterbike Spam, Warspider antics and/or Wraithknights. Going back through all of these, Eldar are more powerful than ever in my view.

I don't get how GW decided that it's a good idea to allow every bike to have a Scatter Laser or Shuriken Cannon. It's obviously broken. Bikes are awesome even without a heavy weapon because of their movement tricks - a good player will be able to hide them forever. But they also shoot a hilarious amount of S6 shots. Personally, I'm looking forward to the moment GW announces that it's 1 Scatter in 3 bikes again  ;D oooh the sweet rage  8). I don't think Eldar are broken, but GW seems unable to produce a balanced book for them.

Of course, not every Eldar player will abuse the potential of the codex but when it comes to competitive play you can expect all the cheese (which is perfectly fine). In friendly games, I usually play a very casual list and most of the time I still stand a very good chance of winning.

I got rather bored with Eldar when 7th Ed codex came out; briefly got into Necrons and stopped when I realized their Warrior Sprues are the worst GW makes. Recently been playing Marines and realized once more how awesome the Eldar list is, compared to everything else I looked into  ;) (I looked into SM, AdMech, Grey Knights, Necrons, CSM, Dark Eldar and Harlequins).

Overpowered? Yup the potential is there I'm afaraid.
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Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2017, 04:25:12 AM »
Bugga! There goes my plan of safety in numbers. Thanks for clicking in, Katamari!

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2017, 06:56:41 AM »
Yes. They are.

It's the most abusable codex in the game currently. With the introduction of being able to run them as ynnari, it's been turned up to the 11.

When your troops choice is 3 jetbikes that shoot 12 s6 shots at over 24" for less then 100pts, something is wrong (or very very right lol).

Take a d sword wraithknight. You'll win games against Necrons.

Also, eldar are not masters of the psychic phase. That title goes to chaos daemons.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 07:07:03 AM by Killersquid »
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Offline volatilegaz

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2017, 07:01:12 AM »
I don't do tournament play, but IMO Eldar are overpowered in the current codex.

The low T is a downside especially for characters / HQs
The poor save of mesh armour is only an issue if you use guardians, and no worse than many other codexes like AM, Orcs, DE, etc
Nothing better than AV12 could be considered an issue I suppose, but with the hull point system less so than in previous versions.

But we have a lot of really good options for increasing our durability:
-Access to Psychic powers like fortune and Invisibility
-Holofields / Sprit Stones / Ghostwalk Matrices for our vehicles
-putting HQs on jetbikes
-Jump-shoot-jump abilities of battlefocus, jetbike and warp spiders enabling them to get into cover / out of LOS
-Wraith units

I would love an assault vehicle, but because it feels fluffy to me, not because we are rubbish in assault without it. Striking Scorpions (infiltrate, stealth and heavy armour), WraithKnight (speed/durability) and to a lesser extent Banshees (speed) all have ways of getting into combat safely without using a transport.

And then of course we have some frankly ludicrous units in terms of points value:

Scatterbikes. Fastest troops in the game. Shootiest troops in the game. and one of the most durable troops in the game. In addition to totally outshining any other troop choice I can think of, they also outshine a lot of fast attack and heavy units other codexes can field.
Warp Spiders. Ridiculously quick, Flickerjump is just amazing. and their guns are pretty spesh, too.
Wraithknight. Better than an Imperial Knight, and much cheaper.

Add to that the general speed of our codex which makes it so forgiving to play, and you've got a very powerful codex indeed.

In previous editions, you did need to work the synergy of different units to get the best out of Eldar. Nowdays any muppet with half a brain can just load up on jetbikes, spiders and wraihtknights and more often than not come away with a victory.

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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2017, 07:52:50 AM »
Yeah they are extremely overpowered when even exploited to a small degree. If you aren't rocking another top-tier army Space Marines, Daemons, or perhaps Necrons... and you aren't prepared to face Eldar many times its hardly even a contest if the Eldar player is moderatley skilled and rocking a combo of the top Eldar units.

At least thats my experience. I'd say I'm a "good" player... but I know for an absolute fact that the Codex has given me an incredible edge over most of the guys who I've played. Most of my games were over by Turn 4 for the entire edition and I was just blowing people off the table with only moderate exploit of the codex.

The volume of shooting is just ridiculous. Factor in the extreme maneuverability and great resilience and its a brutal combination. The Resilience was definitely one of the most maddening things for my opponents... Flicker Jumping Warp Spiders, Jetbike moves to get out of Line of Sight every single turn, the Wraithknight and even the overlooked Wave Serpent even with the downgrade to Holofields is an absolute monster in terms of absorbing and denying damage via Jink and Serpent Shields.

My army also features an almost universal 3+ armor save with my Warp Spiders, Jetbikes, Scorpions, Shining Spears, Fire Dragons et. al.

However just because they are incredibley overpowered doesnt mean other armies are not also overpowered. Space Marines, Tau, Daemons and even the Necrons are ultra frustrating armies to play against. Skyhammer, White Scars Battle Company, Riptide Wing, Summoning, Magnus, the Decurion are overwhelming for casual players and have been spammed beyond belief. However Eldar are probably the kings of overpowered as much as it pains me to say so. Yet as always in the hands of the truly top-tier players I do think its a bit of a wash... but for the rest of us it is incredibly challenging and really unenjoyable.

Furthermore... I do believe that a lot of poor players just point to your army and say "I lost because you played Eldar" and thats a load of crap as well. My typical list is not unbeatable and would be a mild entry in a tournament. Especially against my regular opponents who know exactly what I'm bringing its really not an excuse to never win a game. So whenever they'd point to that I'd really just shake my head. Their are lots of players out there who will not ever blame themselves for losing a game. They can only blame their opponents codex, their "OP" list etc. and thus perennially lose games... They refuse to change tactics, refuse to faults in their game and even more absurdly refuse to change up their lists even with huge collections at their disposal. These type of people will always complain.

So if you are playing a list with restraint I would just brush it aside. But in the overall picture Eldar are the kings of the OP club in 40k. But they are not alone in being overpowered, nor are they unbeatable.
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Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2017, 08:27:36 AM »
Furthermore... I do believe that a lot of poor players just point to your army and say "I lost because you played Eldar" and thats a load of crap as well. My typical list is not unbeatable and would be a mild entry in a tournament. Especially against my regular opponents who know exactly what I'm bringing its really not an excuse to never win a game. So whenever they'd point to that I'd really just shake my head. Their are lots of players out there who will not ever blame themselves for losing a game. They can only blame their opponents codex, their "OP" list etc. and thus perennially lose games... They refuse to change tactics, refuse to faults in their game and even more absurdly refuse to change up their lists even with huge collections at their disposal. These type of people will always complain.

This is a problem, yep, always has been. People were crying because of Falcon-Harlequins yet they refused to add some Flamers to their list... Blaming a Codex or a list for a lost game is poor sportsmanship in my view BUT it hurts to admit that sometimes those poeple may have a point.

Playing OP lists is one thing, but for me, the $$$ was always a factor as well. I want my collection to make sense. I would not go out and buy somwhere between 3 to 10 boxes of Jetbikes and equip them all with Scatters - Scatter Lasers are should NOT be the main weapon of all your Troops. Likewise, I would not invest in a dozen Drop Pods, a handful of Riptides, 36 Reaver bikes or a Necron Flyer for every 5 Immortals that I own. However, I understand that people are free to do so and as long as GW supports those kinds of lists, it will be up to the players to do some balancing.

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2017, 09:32:33 AM »
Just to chime in: Eldar are ridiculous. They don't *have* to be ridiculous, but they totally are.

As mentioned, Scatter bikes are an abomination. Wraithknights are way too cheap. The Aspect Host formation is waaay too good. Warp Spiders are ridiculous. Strength D is everywhere.

So, yeah, they have Toughness 3, but this game is (and always has been) more in favor of offense than defense.

Granted, you can take an army of Banshees and Phoenix Lords and get schooled, and their mid-tier stuff (Avengers, Grav Tanks, Scorpions, Reapers) are strong but not crazy. But if somebody takes an optimized Eldar list, I kinda doubt a lot of armies can match that unless the player makes some significant mistakes or has a really bad dice day.

You don't *have* to think very hard to be an Eldar player these days. Not if you don't want to. Granted, most of us (being decent fellows) enjoy a challenge and don't bring the ultimate Eldar nonsense, but that is from gentlemanly restraint as much as anything else.

Offline magenb

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2017, 06:03:50 PM »
ahh this again..

So at the start of 7th Eldar were OP mainly due to the WK. Scatbike are solid options but can be dealt with, you just had to adjust your play style a bit, and that is a huge gripe that happens with every new edition.

Assuming two players are of similar skill level, especially Tau and marines, then you can go toe to toe with an Eldar force, you can even do it without going full cheese. Just poeple are stuck in a mindset that Eldar are OP and almost give up.

Offline Fenris

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2017, 08:26:30 PM »
I'd have to differ from most, sure eldar can be OP, with the expensive(money) units they get unstoppable. GW set several units at too low point cost to sell more of these models:
-Wraithknight (should have been 400+)
-Jetbikes (20) shurican +6p, scatter +10p
-Wraithguard/blade (35) axe +5p, scythe +15p
-WarpSpiders (flickerjump should have required the spiders to walk without their jetpacks both before and after, during the current game turn, and of course restricted to once/game turn)

Without those units, eldar is fine, sure the formations are powerful but no more than marines, necrons or Tau (and maybe others), can take IMO.
Eldar is good in the psychic department, but psychic powers do not really matter unless you spam them. The durability combined with mobility and firepower is what makes said units above OP.
The Ynnari is OP and should not have been released before 8th ed, hence I consider them a betatest army.
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Offline haunt

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2017, 08:52:03 PM »
Honestly, the time Eldar got nerfed and a bad one was 5th ed, since our codex didn't change from 4th edition. Yet, I was able to prove that a very good player can use an aging codex and still beat other people with tactics and strategies.

Overall, Eldar will always show up in any edition as overpowered and needs nerfing, just roll with it, even when you're playing a low powered all-comers list or even a Theme list.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2017, 10:14:45 PM »
WK undercosted.. well at the start of 7th I would have totally agree'd, but again the game has moved on and marines get access to some very nice relatively cheap wargear. There are even options out there now, that the WK can't touch and will just wreck the rest of the Eldar force.

Windriders are also very close point wise to Vypers (Twin shurkien cannons are actually cheaper than 2 windriders with cannons) and War Walkers.

Tau, Marines and Chaos have all had some serious buff along the 7th Ed trail, but that is all comming to an end anyway.

Offline Dread

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2017, 01:27:57 AM »
It is funny this pops up now, right on the verge of a new addition. I also started in 2nd with DA first also then eldar. I have several armies now and have success with each as well a defeats. Each army has its pros and cons and it's up to us as hobbiests and gamers on how we play them. In tournaments I will pull out all stops, for casual I bring units that I just really wanna play with no matter how weak, *cough grots cough*, but have fun. Let's see what happens in the near future.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2017, 06:51:59 AM »
@haunt: Yes eldar got nerfed badly from 4th to 5th, all they would have needed to do was to fix the god-falcons with a FAQ saying holo-fields may re-roll the dice rather than roll 2D6 and pick the lowest. The lack of an up to date codex for the current edition was annoying, while marines got chapter after chapter as a codex.

Still the small changes between 4th and 5th made eldar playable, and due to thelow amount of eldar players, you could use the element of surprise with units such as pathfinders and hawks.

@magenb: Just because there are other OP units out there does not make the cost of the WK more correct. It's power lever comparred to the Avatar of Khaine is just ridiculous.

Having most of the OP formations and units revamped is the biggest blessing of 8th the edition I'm hoping for.

@everyone: I'd like to see the aspect hosts return, but locked to the PL's. For example take Maugan Ra and up to 3 units of Reapers gains +1BS as long as their Exarch is alive.
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Offline flatworldsedge

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2017, 09:53:15 AM »
Likely a redundant piece of threadomancy given that the new codex is around the corner.  At the risk of being flamed, I'd just note that I find Eldar are labeled OP as much because of how they beat you as anything else.

I find the same in (my more frequently played WFB) with Dark Elves.  Getting beaten by Skaven or Goblins often times feels like luck has a lot more to do with it. 

Whereas the flit and shimmer of a fast hit and run force angers opponents much more.  It's annoying to shoot at something and see shots bounce off it, but nothing angers opponents more than the jetbike or warp spider that leaps out from cover, mangles them, and then is gone again.

I think that needle engenders a much fiercer complaint and makes Eldar feel way more OP than perhaps they are.

Though they are, of course.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Are Eldar overpowered?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2017, 06:44:01 PM »
Likely a redundant piece of threadomancy given that the new codex is around the corner.  At the risk of being flamed, I'd just note that I find Eldar are labeled OP as much because of how they beat you as anything else.



No, they were OP because their units were all incredibly powerful for the cost, and anyone could run a jetbike scatter-laser spam list with a wraithknight and win. A unit that was T4, 3+ save, could turbo-boost 36", put out 12 S6 shots at 36", and was around 80pts as your standard troops choice is insanely good. Not too mention how crazy good warp spiders and wraithknights were.

That was before Ynnari came a long, and gave elder another huge boost in power.

Now though, it looks like (thankfully) elder are more on par with everyone else. But, we'll have to wait and see. I'm looking forward to seeing more then scatter-bikes, battlecompany and riptide wing at events :).
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