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The Armies of 40k => Chaos Armies (Marines and Daemons) => Topic started by: Bearer of the Word on October 7, 2012, 12:20:47 AM
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so..what does everyone think of the new dex? i must say im dissapointed. heres some thoughts
-only rhino and landraiders as dedicated transports. im not saying that chaos should have dreadclaws and razorbacks since that would just make them different colored marines. i feel GW should have added something extra, such as the option for a squad to buy a deepstrike option via sorcery or something.
-nothing special about weapons. i was kinda hoping for an extensive list of daemonic tech weapons kinda like the dark eldar dex. you figured that they would have picked up a thing or 2 after 10,000 years in the warp, but no....they still use boaring old reaper autocannons.
-everyone got downgraded in general ahem obliterators
-on the bright side, the new pics look amazing! specially like the one of huron and ahriman. too bad there's no new minis of them.....
any thoughts?
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You have to keep in mind that, fluffwise, these guys are set in their ways. I knew we wouldn't get Dreadclaws or something like a SR or RB. If anything I half expect to see FW start making Stormbirds(I think that's what they are called) from the Crusade era for the new HH novels. That and many Chapters/ warbands have been reduced to scavenging or stealing most resources like vehicles, weapons, and ammo from the Imperium. Plus, the bolter, chainsword, and RACs are still effective and efficient weapons. As for 'daemon tech' have you seen the three new daemon engines? I'd say those qualify. Other strange new weapons can be discounted as most Traitor marines are even more xenophobic than their loyalist cousins.
Downgraded? I can't think of any units that got worse at all. If anything Oblits are even better, CSM are cheaper, and Raptors now seem viable. Slaanesh bikers? Yes please. The Princes aren't as silly cheap as they used to be, but have a lot more options that can make them more flexible.
I am slightly disappointed by the lack of a new special character. Was hoping Cypher would return, as be'd been a badass with Gunslinger. That and I'm tired of just running mine as a lord lol.
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was sorta hoping for more different options for the marine squads. oh well. just hoping that with the new WD, they are planning to add some nice things to chaos. and yes! Cypher would have been awesome. and i just picked up that there are no new special characters, back to sad now :(
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I hoped to be able to run a more Legion Specific army through the use of options in HQ; similar to SMurfs and their codex.
Stuff like Alpha Legion CSM and Chosen can Infiltrate, Iron Warriors having access to more Dred's and Daemon Engines ect...
Atleast they fixed our Characters after that Errata. Kharn is once again a viable choice and I'm really liking the look of Huron. It's just ashame there's no Cypher (allready mentioned) and Doom Rider.
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Play a dozen or so games with the new codex before getting too sad. The new Kharn and Abbodon entries look very promising, same with Lords and DPs.
I wouldn't hold my breathe on WD having anything new for them besides new models if/when the second wave is released. I'm going to work on making a data sheet for Cypher for 'fun' play against my bro's DA, as I am tired of my favorited character from the past no longer existing officially.
Imho I think it's well written and balanced while still having the ability to go toe-to-toe with any Matt Ward codex. I'm going to give it a few weeks to get games in before passing my full judgement, but I think I see some potential here.
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If you like cypher then take a look at these leaked rules for him, look legit.
Faeit 212: Warhammer 40k News and Rumors: Cypher Returns: Leak? (http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/cypher-returns-leak.html)
Back to main topic, I really like the new dex :D
Seems well rounded, I like that no unit stands out as overpowered and that each unit get a huge choice of upgrades.
was sorta hoping for more different options for the marine squads. oh well. just hoping that with the new WD, they are planning to add some nice things to chaos. and yes! Cypher would have been awesome. and i just picked up that there are no new special characters, back to sad now :(
Are you kidding :o Chaos marine squads have more options and builds than nearly any other unit in the game (maybe only henchmen are more versatile), you can make them assaulty, survivable, heavy weapons, double special weapons, large squad, small squad etr....
My only gripe is I think the thousand sons have got a bit shafted and I was really hoping to field some of them but they really lack options and S&P really kicks them in the balls for their price :(
The special characters are all pretty interesting and useful, kharn is a beast and huron is looking good as a counts as Alpha legion lord.
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Isn't that the page for Codex Chaos in 2nd edition? Look at the stats; Strength and Toughness 5 was the stable for Captains in 2nd edition, as was the rest of the stat line.
Anyway, yes the new Codex is great, but there is still a particular problem GW haven't changed direction on that persists in this Codex and by extention following Codex books for 6th edition, and that is the lack of army variant options. GW hasn't seemed to have caught on that the old Legion and Chapter Trait rules were POPULAR and players want a return to those days, instead they persist on forcing players into a Codex that can do a wide range of things in an unfocussed manner in the belief that consumers will buy more instead of just stuff for "their faction".
However, what seems to be forgotten is players would more often than not choose a faction, buy and paint it one way, then choose another faction and buy the other stuff and paint it another way.
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I've scanned the new Codex, can't say I've digested it in detail.
I don't see any obvious exceptional or OP units. Cautionary note though, I'm not a hero hammer/deathstar type player and it seems a lot of the special rules etc... is oriented towards pimping out the heroes while units are mediocre. So there may be some combination/build that creates an OP hero that I'm just not seeing yet.
The special ability "Veterans of the Long War" has to be purchased, it doesn't come built in like ATSKNF. It doesn't really do much to increase the power of the Codex. It seems to be there to adjust the Meta of the game which has been out of whack because of the OP GK and SW codices. However, since it only grants +1L (in a army with lots of fearless) and an occasional first round CC miss re-roll, I don't see it actually doing much to change the Meta.
The codex is certainly not strong enough to allow CSM to dominate the way GK and SW have in the past. And, IMO, it looks rather mediocre or even weak. Certainly not what we CSM players hoped for, though it may be good for the game if other forthcoming codices are as well balanced (I'll believe it when I see it).
I was hoping for a really strong codex to balance the weakness of my other army - Tyranids.
Post Merge: October 7, 2012, 10:05:39 AM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.
Downgraded? I can't think of any units that got worse at all. If anything Oblits are even better, CSM are cheaper, and Raptors now seem viable. Slaanesh bikers? Yes please. The Princes aren't as silly cheap as they used to be, but have a lot more options that can make them more flexible.
The across the board Leadership hit means that most units that look cheaper aren't really. Though many units seem to have some cheaper weapons options. Depending on how you build the unit they could be more expensive or slightly less than the old codex.
CSM lost their CC weapon, when you buy it back they become more expensive than the old vanilla CSM troops. You save on the aspiring champion but for a 10 man unit the saving is minimal and you still have the Ld loss.
DP are certainly more expensive. LR slightly more expensive for no improvement.
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Add in the CCW and they're the same price as they were in the previous book. Daemon Princes are more expensive because they've got a ridiculous statline boost. Obliterators are no different as far as I can tell, aside from getting the bonus of now causing Fear.
Feels like a lot of complaining over nothing really. Go back to the 4.5 Codex if you feel so badly done to.
Oh, wait.
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The loss of a CC weapon is no big deal, as there are now enough options there to make up for it. Besides, with the changes 6th ed has brought shooting is a tad more effective than charging into CC.
Add in the CCW and they're the same price as they were in the previous book. Daemon Princes are more expensive because they've got a ridiculous statline boost. Obliterators are no different as far as I can tell, aside from getting the bonus of now causing Fear.
Feels like a lot of complaining over nothing really. Go back to the 4.5 Codex if you feel so badly done to.
Oh, wait.
My sentiments exactly. Let's give it some time.
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and yes! Cypher would have been awesome.
You may find him turning up via dark angels, though - they are suspected to be next.
Most of the legions are fine - cult legions get their respective cult troops, Iron warriors get warpsmiths (shatter defences representing artillery) and daemon siege engines, word bearers get the dark apostle and alpha legion get cultists to hide behind.
The one thing that's missing (which people will inevitably whine about) is infiltrating chaos marines. No offence, that got taken out for the same reason first-turn charges got dropped this time round; entirely infiltrating tactical armies are borderline horrific. I understand the annoyance that chaos marines now have no infiltrating units, though.
nothing special about weapons. i was kinda hoping for an extensive list of daemonic tech weapons kinda like the dark eldar dex. you figured that they would have picked up a thing or 2 after 10,000 years in the warp, but no....they still use boaring old reaper autocannons.
Sonic weapons, warp-poisoned knives, inferno bolts, icon of flame, more daemon engines than you can shake a pointy stick at, and someone's half-inched sauron's mace. I think they're not doing badly for non-conventional weapons.
The loss of a CC weapon is no big deal, as there are now enough options there to make up for it. Besides, with the changes 6th ed has brought shooting is a tad more effective than shooting.
It's not even a loss; it's an option; will you risk the reduced combat power in favour of more bolters?
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A new warlord traits table!!!! Check out number 3!!!
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@Locarno- Yes, I will actually. I will also try it with the CC weapon and from there I will decide which is more efficient.
It is still too early to pass full judgement on the new codex. I will try every combination I can a few times before being fully disappointed with anything. Well except for the lack of Cypher for previpusly stated reasons. That I am disappointed by.
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It's strange that Axe of Blind Fury gives the bearer Rage, considering that mark of Khorne itself gives Rage...
Also the berяerkers don't seem to be that good in CC with only 2 attacks in profile.
Otherwise, the codex seems fine, some got a bit boosted, others downgraded, but no big change other than the 3 new Fiend units. Expected a bit more depth and variety.
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Give it to a Daemon Prince, and you'll see where the benefit comes from.
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It's strange that Axe of Blind Fury gives the bearer Rage, considering that mark of Khorne itself gives Rage...
Also the berяerkers don't seem to be that good in CC with only 2 attacks in profile.
Otherwise, the codex seems fine, some got a bit boosted, others downgraded, but no big change other than the 3 new Fiend units. Expected a bit more depth and variety.
Only 2 attacks in the profile, sure. But in what sane world do the Berzerkers not charge? With random charging now it may happen more often than before I will admit, but with smart play they should get the first say in things.
As well as that, we've got the Mark of Khorne. So even if they didn't charge, Counter Attack still gives them some more hurt to toss out there. Lets not forget about Rage when they do charge! These guys should almost always be getting 3, if not 4 attacks. Give the Champion a power weapon, and you've got a nasty little unit.
Your last point however, is my favourite thing about this book. The sheer depth available to explore is amazing, it's by no means an easy choice to pick a list.
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I just when throught it once, and I most admit that I am amaze. Good book, it will bring alot to chaos players. There is an unseen depth to the codex that is yet to be found. I 'll be looking foward to play against (or in team) with one of my friend dedicated to the dark gods. lol
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Am I missing something in this dex or can I now 1 shot a demon prince with a wraithlord or railgun? If so this has got to be a massive disappointment to chaos players.
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I'm really digging the new codex. There is a lot of variety in it and some cool new units and wargear. Were all the things I wanted to see in it? Nope. But there was a lot of stuff I didn't even think about that I like a lot. Especially the marks being able to be applied to units where we haven't been able to before. Nurgle or Tzeentch oblits anyone??? I'm stoked about the Forgefiend too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Invuln save combined with It will not Die makes for a tough nut to crack while it rains death on the enemy. My only dilema is how to kit it out. I was thinking 2 Hades autocannons and the ectoplasma cannon mouth because it looks badass
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hmm....maybe its not so bad. i was under the impression that the forgefiend's hades cannons were twin linked, but there not! thats 8 Str8 shots!!!! :) plus, it can take a ectoplasma canon IN ITS MOUTH
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The BS of the Forgefiend puts me off the Hades on both the Heldrake and the Forgefiend, yet at the same time, 8 s8 shots is ridik.
Did anyone get onto the Dakka Pred with Soul Fire? Cheap as chips and stupidly good.
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Commenting OP:
Rhino with a Havoc Launcher is a capacity 10 Heavy Bolter Razorback. I agree with the demon weapons though - i wish we had at least some options.
My disappointments? Mostly stuff that is either still unusable or became unusable:
Lore of Tzeentch. Only decent power is WC2.
Demon Prince - The price hijack make it completely pointless. Unless you roll one as a boon.
Thousand Sons - My favorite legion still got the short stick. Still way too expensive, and the obligatory psyker Got Lore of Tzeentch.
Hellbrutes - Going Berserk is much better than the old chaos dread. However, you get screwed if you are already engaged.
Possessed - Way too expensive.
Mutilators - Whose bright idea was this? Melee terminators that cost the same as 2 terminators, have the same durability of those terminators, have half the combat ability of said terminators, have no shooting whatsoever and have rules that make it harder to get into melee on the first place. Oh, and come in numbers too small to handle a actualy combat unit.
Helldrake - Another case of 'why did this became this expensive?'
Defiler - Price increase why?
Forgefiend - again, would be a great model at ~140 points. As is? Gets outdone by triple las predator ( a tank that isnt very good to begin with ), or Havocs.
The other two things that bother me and dont have much to do with price are these:
Champions everywhere! Costing x points each. Yes, your obligatory Cultist Champion cost x points. He is so expensive in fact that the cultists cost as much as a IG platoon, and those come with better ld, better armor, guns that always work withing 24" and choice of better heavy weapons.
Lack of character on the gear lists. Basically, It is too marinei, too little chaosy. I would have expected more access to chaos stuff, warped stuff. Grey Knights have acess to more daemon weapons than CSM, for example. Fleshmetal could be a upgrade to some models. It Will Not Die could be a upgrade to vehicles that are chaos possessed. Things like this - that make the army more daemonic withouth stopping being marines.
[mod]Please don't post unit upgrade costs, it's against the forum rules - Iris.[/mod]
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Defiler - Price increase why?
Invulnerable save and It Will Not Die, I guess.
Didn't notice the Daemon Prince isn't an eternal warrior. This seems somewhat daft - he is, after all, almost by definition immortal - and also potentially concerning in that if one assumes the Rulebook Daemon rule is to be used, the update daemons (flamers and screamers) don't have it either. This does not bode well for daemons in the future....
Also - Noise Marines got nasty. They're not a bad buy just as a swap for generic chaos marines - essentially getting I5 and Fearless for slightly less points than the upgrade used to cost (and much less than you used to pay per model), but it's the upgrades that make them tasty.
For a pure assault unit, Veterans of The Long War and a swap to chainswords makes them pretty tasty in a fair fight, and Icon of Excess allows a big unit to survive hoofing it across the board without necessarily needing transport.
Sonic Blasters are only for a static gunline - if you intend to move, you're paying points for a worse gun than a bolter. Dug in, they're awesome at crowd control.
The blastmaster is now one of the scariest guns going. It's not far short of an ignore-cover-plasma-cannon and is available to small squads.
Thousand sons - hmmph. Not getting overwatch is annoying, but it's something they've not gained rather than lost.
The sorceror is less reliable power-wise, I admit, but the Tzeench Primaris power could be worse. It's mainly good on those occasions where the unit finds itself having to do crowd control (as is - in theory - the icon of flames, although I think that's a bit expensive for what it's actually likely to do).
Main thing that's nice is them speeding up as infantry - that's a Slow and Purposeful change rather than anything in the codex but it doesn't half help. They're not going to be running anyway and being able to move up on objectives at a decent speed helps.
Lastly, Veterans of the Long War. Really not going to help against a proper assault unit but makes them not bad on the charge. More importantly, space marine characters are likely to remain appropriately leery of the squad leader with the magic glowstick of death.
Also, Azhek Ahriman. Seriously, what the actual krunk? Okay, the black staff doesn't penetrate power armour. However, watch as he pumps all three Biomancy melee powers simultaneously and then uses the force ability of the staff to boot. Or the fact that he's one of the first psykers who can both reliably get and use the truly hideous telepathy power Hallucination.
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Has anyone here noticed that we can no longer have a Termie model (apart from Champion) armed with a combi-weapon & a chainfist?
Glad that I have yet assembled any of my models...
Also, by strict RAW, Noise Champion cannot take sonic blaster.
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Let's look at some of the chaos psychic powers. What do you folks think of Weapon Virus?
I played a game last weekend with my Tau. A sorcerer cast it on my Skyrays, which can fire many times (smart missiles, seeker missiles from markerlight hits). See rule for: Gets Hot! on vehicles on a 4+. I felt it really was fantastic in suppressing vehicles.
After the game, we were talking about using Weapon Virus (which is something new in the codex) on zooming flyers, like the Vendetta, which seems to be popping up everywhere.
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As far as codexes go? I'd saying this is second most disappointing codex I've seen( the 4th edition Eldar codex being the most :( )... The price went up and the quality went way down... Yay it's in colour but half of the text is out of the last book??? I would have liked to see a lot more fluff(especially about the other 4 legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, etc)... I think the rules went way down... The only a demon prince will ever pop up in my army is because of the boon table... Way overcosted for a confusing stat increase... The whole book just seems very half assed... Most of the pictures were repeats only this time in colour...
The_Outcast
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I'm not a fan of how it's geared towards throwing guys into challenges, and then they get butchered. I thought, kit-wise, they'd be better than average in challenges, yet there's nothing really worth it in there. Also, daemon weapons, there's 2. One is worth taking, but only with the MoK, which is slightly redundant in my eyes. Especially when Kharn is cheaper and better. I think they've cocked up with keeping Marks on the 1 other daemon weapon.
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i dont really mind the challenge thing. champions are not the squishiest fighters, so if something can beat it in combat, it was probally a beetter option than to let it butcher the rest of the squad. downside is ur screwd if ur charged ib a single character
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My disappointments? Mostly stuff that is either still unusable or became unusable:
Lore of Tzeentch. Only decent power is WC2.
Demon Prince - The price hijack make it completely pointless. Unless you roll one as a boon.
Thousand Sons - My favorite legion still got the short stick. Still way too expensive, and the obligatory psyker Got Lore of Tzeentch.
Hellbrutes - Going Berserk is much better than the old chaos dread. However, you get screwed if you are already engaged.
Possessed - Way too expensive.
Mutilators - Whose bright idea was this? Melee terminators that cost the same as 2 terminators, have the same durability of those terminators, have half the combat ability of said terminators, have no shooting whatsoever and have rules that make it harder to get into melee on the first place. Oh, and come in numbers too small to handle a actualy combat unit.
Helldrake - Another case of 'why did this became this expensive?'
Defiler - Price increase why?
Forgefiend - again, would be a great model at ~140 points. As is? Gets outdone by triple las predator ( a tank that isnt very good to begin with ), or Havocs.
The other two things that bother me and dont have much to do with price are these:
Champions everywhere! Costing x points each. Yes, your obligatory Cultist Champion cost x points. He is so expensive in fact that the cultists cost as much as a IG platoon, and those come with better ld, better armor, guns that always work withing 24" and choice of better heavy weapons.
Lack of character on the gear lists. Basically, It is too marinei, too little chaosy. I would have expected more access to chaos stuff, warped stuff. Grey Knights have acess to more daemon weapons than CSM, for example. Fleshmetal could be a upgrade to some models. It Will Not Die could be a upgrade to vehicles that are chaos possessed. Things like this - that make the army more daemonic withouth stopping being marines.
Please don't post unit upgrade costs, it's against the forum rules - Iris.
I'm gonna have to seriously disagree with most of what you said here. The WC2 Power (Breath of Chaos) Is functionally Identical to the last dex, just written differently. Bolt of Tzeentch is effing insane. It's the same stats as it was in the last book, but now it's a BEAM which means it can tear through multiple targets. Boon of mutation, although unreliable, can be rediculous. The Primaris power is a little meh, but that's why it's the primaris power.
Demon Princes, although not great anymore, are still a decent choice, at least for a second detachment.
Thousand Sons are pretty much unchanged from the last book. And I've played against them. They make an INSANE tarpit. Wrecked my face.
Hellbrutes are freakin nuts. They can't hit our dudes anymore, and they only even go crazy if they get hurt.
Ok, Possessed are a bit pricey, but they can be as effective as some terminators, and they can fit into nice cheap rhinos rather than being carted around by a big block or ceramite and adamantium that's expensive on the table and the wallet.
Ok, Mutilators are literally twice as durable as terminators because they have twice the number of wounds as regular terminators. They actually fight BETTER than terminators because they always get the bonus attack for 2 weapons. And what exactly slows them down from getting into CC? If you mean slow and purposeful, re-read your rulebook. It doesn't slow down movement anymore. They can get to combat just as fast as any other infantry.
And the helldrake "became this expensive" compared to what previous incarnation? Second of all, considering what it can do, I think it's >200 point cost is more than fair, if not generous. It's a flyer made to kill the current meta of flyer spam. It exists simply to take out enemy flyers.
Ok, Defiler got an unnecessary points jump, but it gained "It will not Die" and can take more upgrades to increase its viability.
Forgefiends are unbelievable. To the tune of a couple hundred points (literally) you have 3 plasma-cannons at +1 strength compared to a regular plasma cannon. And it's incredibly durable thanks to it's invulnerable save and "It will not die" It is an amazing and appropriately costed gun platform.
In regards to the cost of cultists and whatnot? Yes, it sucks that we MUST take champions in every unit, but honestly, didn't most of us do that anyway? And cultists are fantastic. At 1 point less per model than guardsmen (plus the x points premium we pay for the obligatory champion) we have a cheap as dirt close combat unit. You want a shooty unit? Your cultists become the same price as guardsmen, we just have to pay for our unit commander.
And although our armory didn't get as much unique stuff as we would have liked, we still got more than the last book.
Overall, my only major gripe with the book is the lack of new special characters from the other traitor legions. I fully expecting something similar to "Chapter tactics" for night lords, Iron warriors, etc. And Cypher not being in the book was disappointing, however I can almost guaruntee he'll be in the new DA book. Think about it, back when he was in the book, he made your chaos marines function like regular means, going so far as to grant ATSKNF. His army didn't function like a chaos army. He's going to be in the Dark Angels book, because his army functions like a Dark Angels army. Sort of how Gabriel Seth's army functions just like the Blood Angels, even though the Flesh Tearers are only descended from them. I imagine he will be a mutually exclusive special character however, to prevent him from teaming up with Azrael and friends, because that would really be a breach in fluff.
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Another thing that you should consider, Wyrmnax, is that Mutilators aren't priced as two terminators. They are somewhat appropriately priced as a paladin.
If you then consider the fact that they can get marks, that also has lots of icons (AKA deeps strike homers) you will see why these can be effective.
Overall I see the marks as the biggest change in the book, particularly the mark of nurgle. Considering that only Typhus+plague marines get feel no pain, I'm probably going to not use them in my army so that I have some rules consistency among my Death Guard themed army.
Normal Marines with the mark of nurgle are quite inexpensive, and obliterators/spawn with this mark are also quite impressive.
Obliterators with the mark of nurgle:
-immune to ID from lascannons (vendettas, IG can't kill them as easily)
-grey knights cant kill them with psybolt autoacannon dreads easily
-long fangs can't get lucky and instakill them
*obliterators are now more effective against these 3 top-tier armies
-assault cannons help them kill light vehicles
-lascannon, multi-melta, assault cannon, and plasma cannon let them fire anti-tank and anti-infantry guns all game if they want to (provided they are in range, you can switch between two weapons and not lose too much effectiveness).
A final note. My own build used to use Havocs. Consider these beautiful changes:
Old Havocs: (these were a niche unit, many games they did well for me, other times they would be not so great)
(195) 7 Havocs, 4 autocannons, icon of chaos glory
-they fired a lot
-had rerollable leadership
-they could act as formidable counter-assault to small harasser units
New Havocs:
(187) 7 Havocs, Mark of Nurgle, 4 autocannons, icon of fearless (forgot its name....no book on me....)
-they fire a lot
-they are fearless
-they are toughness 5
The only loss here is that they can't dish out many attacks like they used to, but overall toughness 5+fearless outweighs that loss, especially when they cost less.
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that also has lots of icons (AKA deeps strike homers) you will see why these can be effective.
Actually, as far as I can tell from the new book, Icons don't guide deep strike anymore. Unless I completely missed it, of course. Can anybody confirm?
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that also has lots of icons (AKA deeps strike homers) you will see why these can be effective.
Actually, as far as I can tell from the new book, Icons don't guide deep strike anymore. Unless I completely missed it, of course. Can anybody confirm?
Coming back after some time away. No, icon's do not act as teleport homers now. But the dimensional key is like a super homer (not to mention its other fun effects), just have to kill an enemy in CC to make it work.
Over all I'm very pleased with the new dex. and to everyone who has something to complain about with the new dex i have this to say; This is the 1st dex to be released in 6th ed, and it just shows the direction & style they (GW) are going to use for all codices yet to be released. So if you feel CSM got screwed then everyone is going to get screwed when they get their new dex.
The only thing i didnt initially like about the new codex was the lack of demon weapons. All of my chaos lords had been modeled with some kind of stylised sword (always as the nurlge d-wep) but now i've switch one of my lords to have a power scythe (i believe those count as axes) and gave him the burning brand of skalathrax. With the rules for power weps as they are, I feel okay with the lack of CC weapons in the dex, cause you can have w/e flavor you want to have with just a switch of the model.
And before anyone starts to tell me about how great the murder sword is, most of my opponents play very mobile armies (tau and eldar) so if i say "murder sword likes your farseer this game" my lord will never, ever see the farseer in CC.
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You are correct actually. My fault there.
So then the Dimensional Key is our only real way to get deep strike that doesn't scatter, which also sucks since some of us were excited about us being able to prevent Chaos Daemons from scattering.
I'm definitely going to have to adjust my strategy, as I used to really take advantage of person icons and oblits/terminators. I'm maybe considering giving a Daemon Prince a Dimensional Key, though the Burning Brand on a winged daemon prince (I.E. shooting while swooping) would be a great weapon to raise Epidemus' Tally with.
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Ya, i think the boost the the DP's stat line was to make us hope we rolled a 66 on the boon table.
One thing I'm confused about is how are we gonna use our chosen now that they dont have infiltrate? I used to run a small meltacide unit but now im just look at them and go "?????"
I guess deck them out with special CC weps
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One thing I'm confused about is how are we gonna use our chosen now that they dont have infiltrate? I used to run a small meltacide unit but now im just look at them and go "?????"
Why not just mount them in Rhinos, and use them as mobile fire support? I don't view the loss of infiltration as a major problem, and with Plasma weapons being handy in sixth edition, I think that you could also make a pretty good case for using them in an infantry fire support role too.
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Why not just mount them in Rhinos, and use them as mobile fire support? I don't view the loss of infiltration as a major problem, and with Plasma weapons being handy in sixth edition, I think that you could also make a pretty good case for using them in an infantry fire support role too.
I was actually thinking of running them with 5 power mauls (4 on chosen and 1 on champ) and maybe the rest to soak wounds, and giving my chaos lord to that squad, but if i did what you said it would allow me to use all those extra plasma bits i have from my space wolf kits.
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One thing I'm confused about is how are we gonna use our chosen now that they dont have infiltrate? I used to run a small meltacide unit but now im just look at them and go "?????"
Why not just mount them in Rhinos, and use them as mobile fire support? I don't view the loss of infiltration as a major problem, and with Plasma weapons being handy in sixth edition, I think that you could also make a pretty good case for using them in an infantry fire support role too.
Agreed with Irisado... If anything, you could view Chosen as another type of Havocs unit with spec weps except that they are slightly more expensive, have more attacks, and use up Elite slots instead of Hvy Support. (So that you can take any units you want from that area.)
While I do feel that the loss of infiltration & ability to arm the whole unit with meltabombs are a bit of shame, but the fact that Chosen still retain many of their options as the previous codex is more than enough to make up for it. (If not, possibly even more now with all the marks & icons choices along with different power wep combo in the 6th Edition. :))
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Why not just mount them in Rhinos, and use them as mobile fire support? I don't view the loss of infiltration as a major problem, and with Plasma weapons being handy in sixth edition, I think that you could also make a pretty good case for using them in an infantry fire support role too.
I was actually thinking of running them with 5 power mauls (4 on chosen and 1 on champ) and maybe the rest to soak wounds, and giving my chaos lord to that squad, but if i did what you said it would allow me to use all those extra plasma bits i have from my space wolf kits.
You could also even top that combo with Marks of Slaanesh for higher initiative to strike first. Mix & match the weps in such unit would be neat like a mix of 2-3 Mauls & 2-3 Swords. And if you feel like it, you could give them FNP via an icon.
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I used to run the unit with 5 meltas and then just extra dudes to sock up wounds, but I've decided to make the squad 5 Meltas, 4 guys with special CCWs (from Dark Vengeance) and 1 extra guy for a wound. Or I drop the last guy and put in a chaos lord. The unit zooms up in a rhino, then gets out next turn, blows an enemy transport to hell, then charges in to mop up survivors.And I have to say, MoS plus the FNP icon is kinda nuts.
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The loss of iniltration is a loss of outflank, even with a vehicle. Having the rule removed does effect their utility quite a lot, they're still a good unit but now have to stick to more conventional tactics and simply be better equipped at dealing with things than the run of the mill troops. Plus it pushes them into a better choice for a bodyguard unit.
Additionally it prevents horrible ICs being outflanked into enemy armies so its probably a balance factor too.
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Dear god... Did anybody else notice that Demon Princes lost eternal warrior? They have the Demon USR, but that doesn't grant EW. A sad day for demon-kind...
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Dear god... Did anybody else notice that Demon Princes lost eternal warrior? They have the Demon USR, but that doesn't grant EW. A sad day for demon-kind...
If you need a Daemon Prince with EW, I guess you can seek Daemon allies and use their Daemon Princes.
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Most of the legions are fine - cult legions get their respective cult troops, Iron warriors get warpsmiths (shatter defences representing artillery) and daemon siege engines, word bearers get the dark apostle and alpha legion get cultists to hide behind.
Hi,
I don't see how the warp smith destroys enemy artillery. Also, it looks like anybody can take siege engines, dark apostles, etc. not just word bearers and iron warriors. I guess you may be thinking of players who have been in chaos since before the 4th edition codex and collected those armies. I started at 4th, so I don't have any relationship with them :P.
...Unless you meant the shatter defences ability assumes he is using artillery to do that?
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Has anyone noticed some of the glaring possible miss types? (and I apologise if these have been mentioned before0
Terminators can't take two cc weapons
Plague Zombies are limited to 10 models
And a few others I can't remember right now....
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maybe its just me and i never payed attention to it, but when did termies ever get 2 CC weps? mine always had their basic power weps and a twin-linked bolter (guess its a combi-bolter now). I don't remember them ever having two cc weps.
They can still take a pair of claws or take w/e wep you want, and now your termie champ can be decked out with 2 chainfists. sounds kinda win to me, even just to model it
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Just like in 4th edition they can replace both their weapons with a pair of Lightning Claws, in the 3.5 edition of the codex Terminators could pretty much have any close combat equipment what so ever, including normal close combat weapons.
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I don't see how the warp smith destroys enemy artillery.
Locarno said that Shatter Defences represents artillery, as in it represents the effects of shelling a piece of terrain before the game starts. He didn't say it destroys artillery.
Also, it looks like anybody can take siege engines, dark apostles, etc. not just word bearers and iron warriors.
There's no such restriction, you're right, but Locarno's talking about themed armies. Iron Warriors players, for example, benefit from the inclusion of the new daemon engines because they're naturally a very fluffy choice, although it does arguably mean that Iron Warriors players will need two detachments just to squeeze in all the appropriate Heavy Support choices. Word Bearers players similarly get the benefit of a dedicated Dark Apostle now, rather than having to turn a Lord into a de facto Apostle by giving him a giant mace.
Arkie, Buzzard: Terminators have been able to have two close combat weapons for ages as the old Codex gave them a dual-lightning-claw option, and the current one has retained said option.
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Just like in 4th edition they can replace both their weapons with a pair of Lightning Claws, in the 3.5 edition of the codex Terminators could pretty much have any close combat equipment what so ever, including normal close combat weapons.
Ah i see. when i played that dex, i didnt own any termies, just spammed foot slogging noise marines (3 squads of 13 all with sonic weapons made a big hole in pretty much anything)
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Well it should be known that Iron Warriors can ally with Imperial Guard in order to get their 4th heavy support choice, particularly the basilisk (which used to be unique to them, in addition to the vindicator back when chaos couldn't have vindicators).
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Indeed. Mixing and matching cultists and guard allies allows you to make a 'traitor guard' force with chaos marine commanders and elites - just like the old Lost And The Damned.
Also - Plague Zombies. Awesome, even if they do only come in mobs of ten.
Why not just mount them in Rhinos, and use them as mobile fire support? I don't view the loss of infiltration as a major problem, and with Plasma weapons being handy in sixth edition, I think that you could also make a pretty good case for using them in an infantry fire support role too.
I've always liked footsloggers, myself, and rapid fire now makes that much more viable. Abbadon's rule makes me think of doing a sort of 'chaos deathwatch' army of lots of pure chosen of various marks (and legions). Use Ahriman (as a counts as Zaphariston) in a bigger list and you can still infiltrate a couple of them...
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I don't see anything in the codex about plague zombie units being limited to ten man. All it says is that any unit of cultists can be designated as plague zombies, they gain the special rules, and lose the ability to shoot. Nothing about the size of the unit.
EDIT: Please disregard this. I didn't realize adding models was listed under options, I thought it was separate. Now I get where the issue is.
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Here are my two cents:
My two favorite legions did not get helped. Tsons got shafted AGAIN. They still die to dakka like normal marines and no overwatch. They are very expensive now for what they do.
I am actually livid about their idea of a dark apostle. Has anyone read the books on the Word Bearers? The Dark Apostles are supposed to be the bad asses who lead the Word Bearer legion. They are not a cheap support character with less than optimal stats. ALSO, neither the cultists nor the dark apostle entries include any kind of daemon summoning like the fluff. I think Phil Kelly has never read the fluff on this legion. Yes, the codex has a dark apostle and cultists. No, that doesn't necessarily make it fluffy. Do not even get me started on possessed. Even more expensive and can only ever be ap3 in cc where as before we had a chance for rending.
Why do people think the dragon is anti-flyer? vector strikes at st7 on side armor will not dent stormravens and vendettas in most cases. If you equip it with the hades autocannon, it cannot vector strike said flyer and only has 4 shots. I do not see what other people are seeing. What it IS good for is the bale flamer. Torrent and its movement will make it annihilate heavy weapons squads like longfangs or lootas in the backfield. This is what it is good at. Although, I guess it does kill necron fliers well, but at max you can only knock down 3 of their 9 max fliers (If you take 3 dragons)?
Why do people say there are so many awesome combos in this codex? All I have seen so far is Epidemus Nurgle lists which do terribly against the long range shooting meta that is 6th. Everything else is too expensive to combo in my opinion.
The daemon engines will die without regenerating hull points because of low armor. Unless you make all your 5+ saves. I don't see these as that durable.
HUGE point increase on the defilers which I actually used in 5th edition. Same problem with durability stated above.
Like others have said, I see the same old codex with just a few extra toys to boost marketing. So much wasted potential.
-Lazaris
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My two favorite legions did not get helped. Tsons got shafted AGAIN. They still die to dakka like normal marines and no overwatch. They are very expensive now for what they do.
In that respect nothing has changed between Codices. They're still better than they were, though, on the basis that the Sorcerer's actually useful now.
I am actually livid about their idea of a dark apostle. Has anyone read the books on the Word Bearers? The Dark Apostles are supposed to be the bad asses who lead the Word Bearer legion.
Then turn your Lord into a heavier version. You could have an interesting contrast between the one who spends all his time as a hate preacher, and the one who actually gets out there and leads by example. ALSO, neither the cultists nor the dark apostle entries include any kind of daemon summoning like the fluff.
Seeing as daemons can be taken as allies, I don't see why this is a problem.
Do not even get me started on possessed. Even more expensive and can only ever be ap3 in cc where as before we had a chance for rending.
Possessed were crap before anyway...
Why do people think the dragon is anti-flyer? vector strikes at st7 on side armor will not dent stormravens and vendettas in most cases. If you equip it with the hades autocannon, it cannot vector strike said flyer and only has 4 shots. I do not see what other people are seeing.
The fact that flyers don't have the Hard To Hit penalty against other flyers might help a bit, and you've got Daemonforge for when you want that Vendetta out of the sky.
Why do people say there are so many awesome combos in this codex?
Units in the current Codex are generally much cheaper than in the old Codex (Defiler notwithstanding, though Daemon, It Will Not Die and Daemonforge do make up for that despite your apparent protestations) so you've got a bit more freedom to mix and match what you want, whether that's with allies or just within the Codex.
The daemon engines will die without regenerating hull points because of low armor. Unless you make all your 5+ saves. I don't see these as that durable.
HUGE point increase on the defilers which I actually used in 5th edition. Same problem with durability stated above.
Go and ask the Dark Eldar players what they thought of Flickerfields under 5th Edition, and what they think of jink saves under 6th. Being able to negate (on average) a third of incoming firepower, and being able to repair (on average) a third of whatever gets through, is better than you make it out to be.
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Lazaris, step away from the plate, take a breath, have a sit down and a cup of tea. Now, is it all that bad?
I think you're suffering form a case of "they changed it, its crap" syndrome. Stop thinking about what you 'can't' do anymore and start realising what you now can do.
Koval you pretty much said everything I weanted to but I'm going to elaborate on an important point oin my mind;
I am actually livid about their idea of a dark apostle. Has anyone read the books on the Word Bearers? The Dark Apostles are supposed to be the bad asses who lead the Word Bearer legion. ALSO, neither the cultists nor the dark apostle entries include any kind of daemon summoning like the fluff.
Seeing as daemons can be taken as allies, I don't see why this is a problem.
Fully agree, taking daemons as allies actually does us a favour as it frees up our primary FOC chart and aslo is VERY fulffy as you can cement the idea odf the Dark apostle calling forth a Greater Daemon / Herald to dring his warpspawned legions with him. Or go fully the other way and take a Daemons Daemon Prnice (they're better anyway) and have the Dark Apostle serve him. Who said Erebus??
You can always take a Chaos Lord or a Sorceror (as I have been and will be doing again) and have them proxy as a Dark Apostle. You need to think outside the box.
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Yup, I think that waht 6th edition will do in general... make us think outside of the box.
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Yup, I think that waht 6th edition will do in general... make us think outside of the box.
That's a pretty vague statement.
In what ways do you think sixth edition and the new Chaos codex will make us think outside the box? Note that I'm not disagreeing with your idea, but I'm curious as to the particular examples that you had in mind.
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Personally i love the new dex. Initially was disappointed with first read though. But after few more absolutely love it. :) Was expecting another power dex like GK or SW Or BA. And hate to say i was hoping it would be.... to compete and better the broken Eldar, knight, guard and Angels codex's ,but its not and now am so so glad. Hopefully this is the start where GW go back to pretty balanced books that don't try and eclipse and overpower every previous dex. Think Kelly has done a really good job. Its got hints of the great Csm black codex. Marks, Boons great and love the warlord traits. Three new dae machines agreed despite limited builds look cool. Also new warp talon unit and mutilators (both unsure about but nice to have the option). Warpsmith and apostle great additions. Prob not best power HQs but add a nice option and touch to army creation. Cultists awesome, cheap disposable bods. What i really love is the variety and sheer amount of choice of units we get now and for list building its a joy. Generally points of most units gone down, bikes, havocs, raptors, lord and sorcerors. And it has breathed new life maybe into units of spawn, bikes and maybe possessed (still way over priced but get em in combat more effective now 3 less random options. Marks rock too. Can mark up almost everything. Oh also love helbrute rules compared to the old dreds. And generally all the points costs sorted.
Fair enough Dae Princes cost loads more and lost eternal warrior. But stats got huge boost. Also flying mons creature. Is losing Eternal warrior a really a big deal? unless getting shot by broadsides or special wargear they be fine.
And Like everyone i was waiting for legion spec rules. Was itching to get a new Night lords army going. but no no spec legion rules or cult termies or anything. Guess they will either release Legion specific codex's (i think unlikely now) Or we just wait till our chaos armies are covered in the Forge world heresy books.
Wanted drop pods and some landraiders with some different loadouts.... But hey we didnt' get a power dex, Or legion stuff, or cult stuff. But lots new units and points fixed on be a various others. Spec characters generally seem better. Other disused units addressed. Personally i love it. Maybe a couple more dae weapons would be my main gripe.
len
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Well, the allies rule for exemple. Now, if I face a chaos armie I could see Leman russ facing me. :o You not limited to the codex material only. Special senerio are more frequent (scrouge, the relic, etc...)
Cookie cutter list are not an absolute most, if you want to win. New combo need to be found to fit a specific style of play. Maybe my guards want Mega Nobz, or even a Demon Prince to lead my army. Chaos have 4 allies of convinience, that's 4 new dex to "mash-mix" with.
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I am actually livid about their idea of a dark apostle. Has anyone read the books on the Word Bearers? The Dark Apostles are supposed to be the bad asses who lead the Word Bearer legion. They are not a cheap support character with less than optimal stats.
Marine Chaplains and Librarians are equally supposed to be exceptionally skilled fighters but get the same statline.
But, as noted, if it really bothers you, take a chaos lord with a power maul, aura of dark glory and mark of tzeench. One 4++ character with a crozius who confers fearless to any unit he joins.
The problem with making a Dark Apostle a Lord with extra rules is then there's no reason to take the lord (ditto sorceror). I could just as easily suggest that the Warpsmith (essentially Iron Warriors Warsmith) should be a Lord but again, there's then no reason for the lord.
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It should be pretty clear that the reduced statline for non-Lord HQ's (besides the prince) was for easy balancing reasons.
They have already given the other marine equivalent ability-driven HQ's the same lackluster statline, and made them all similarly priced. It makes it easier to evaluate what price they should have without making them all super points heavy or overpowered.
Sure we won't get awesome uber characters for Iron Warriors and Word Bearers, but really, lords can mostly replicate the awesomeness of such leaders.
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They have already given the other marine equivalent ability-driven HQ's the same lackluster statline, and made them all similarly priced. It makes it easier to evaluate what price they should have without making them all super points heavy or overpowered.
This. Personally I think it is a good idea, the silliness of third edition where a Chaplain was in every way better than a Captain for Space Marines is just wrong. Let the Chaos Lord be the killer and give the other guys skills to compliment their supportive nature is a good way to go in my opinion.
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I'm all for slightly reduced stat-lines. I just wish they had more than 2 wounds. Seems too easy to kill them, despite their extra abilities.
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On the bright side of things, unlike librarians, chaos sorcerers can get invulnerable saves. We also can avoid challenges in most combats if we have to, since virtually all our squads have a champion in them. If you don't think the sorcerer can fight off a character, you let the champion take the challenge.
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not a huge complaint but more a matter of pointing out. Did anyone notice we do not get plasma cannons at ALL? I thought oblits used to have them? anyway just food for thought.
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we dont. but we get ECTOPLASMA CANNONS! which are pretty much str8 plasma cannons
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Did anyone notice we do not get plasma cannons at ALL?
The two units that used to have plasma cannons (Chaos Dreadnought and Obliterators) still have plasma cannons and with the addition of the Forgefiend there are more plasma cannons than ever.
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Also if you happen to get the tally up to 20 models with epidemus, your obliterators not only have plasma cannons, but also AP2 twin-linked flamers, heavy flamers, and assault cannons.
Not to mention nurgle havocs would have AP2 frag missiles at that point.
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"Ignores Armour Saves" isn't the same thing as "Has A Certain AP Value". So unfortunately those frag missiles, assault cannons et cetera don't become AP 2, because if they did then that would have an impact on vehicles as well, not just infantry.
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My bad on mentioning the AP, the vehicle damage change is indeed not gained with this rule.
However they are still very effective against infantry once one gains that buff.
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On the bright side of things, unlike librarians, chaos sorcerers can get invulnerable saves. We also can avoid challenges in most combats if we have to, since virtually all our squads have a champion in them. If you don't think the sorcerer can fight off a character, you let the champion take the challenge.
Librarians can take storm shields if I'm not mistaken. And as was already stated, we didn't lose the few plasma cannons we had.
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Librarians can take storm shields if I'm not mistaken. And as was already stated, we didn't lose the few plasma cannons we had.
Well Codex Space Marines ones can, if they are in terminator armor. But standard power armor libbys don't get invulnerable saves normally.
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terminator librarian in storm shields are an exception. However, they are incredibly expensive points wise and end up costing more than they should for a two-wound character.
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terminator librarian in storm shields are an exception. However, they are incredibly expensive points wise and end up costing more than they should for a two-wound character.
Agreed, I feel my libby is pretty fat on points being 135 points on a bike.
Chaos Sorc on a bike and level 2 is 105 points.
30 points difference gets you a Psyhic Hood.
Then it's Champion of Chaos vs. Combat Tactics/ATSKNF
Though, the chaos psychic powers are pretty nifty. Too few, but interesting.
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I do think that the nice thing about having very few chaos powers is that you have less variation in what you will roll, and therefore will get more practice using certain powers than other psykers will.
I mean the fact is, everyone knows that good eldar players make their psychic powers really count most of the time. The same should go for other psykers.
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Sorry I am late to the party but I wanted to chime in on the new dex discussion. First off, I enjoy the new book lots of options means lots of different play styles and lists to try out which for me means I get to be excited about a lot of different things for a while. There is a ton of craziness in this book which is my biggest love of chaos, you have to be crazy as can be if your kicking your feet up at home in the bloody warp so I dig the mutation (which will be on all my guys cause I like crazy as mentioned). I do not have my dex/BRB with me so forgive me if I get a few things wrong as I cant fact check myself as I type this.
Here are the things I am dissapointed in:
Daemon Prince,
Lost EW and only T5? a plain prince is pretty meh so he is going to be really expensive to mark him up, give him a save (only comes with his 5++ nekid) and some options/wargear let alone if you decide to make him a psyker. They needed a price boost from the last dex but now I feel its definitely not a given in a list and likely not to be in any of my lists, a hell drake is a lot cheaper for a flying option IMHO.
Noise Marines,
now in the last dex/5th these were my guys, I fell in love with the Emperors Children Warband data sheet and am over halfway to my 120 noise marines for that (yeah I am disturbed, thats why I fit in with chaos). That being said Saelvo (sp?) they cant charge after firing and if they move they only get 12" firing? Ignore cover is nice for anything their AP5 weapons will actually negate the armor save but in my game group I do not encounter much 5+ stuff, most the IG I play against have veterans with 4+ and what not in them and "most" armies are some variant of power armor. At least they have a bolt pistol if they want to charge but I am not so hot on these guys, I don't hate them but I feel I have to play them a bit more before I decide if they are better or worse, regardless they have definitely changed.
Daemon Weapons
I guess that term lord with bliss giver is gonna have to have Murder written on the sword and then shelved, I see no reason to take that weapon since as soon as you tell the person they are marked for murder, they will never be within range of your murder wielding HQ, unless its a zooming DP with wings, but for that price just deepstrike Abby and take some chosen as troops, and the Murder Sword is not even a daemon weapon. The two we get are interesting, I think the only way I will take a Daemon Prince is with a black mace, and I tried a juggerlord with the axe of blind fury, that is fun but my disappointment lies in the lack of god specific DW's it was fun to take an appropriately marked lord with a DW and have it eat you one turn then turn around and eat a squad the next.
Chosen
I am in the camp that I was hoping for Chosen to take term armor as an option and that would be our termies. oh well I cant justify taking chosen for anything but shooting, they cost 2 points more with a PW than a term base (Which comes with a PW and term armor) they are just a little lack luster for me although I love the new models.
Icons
Icons dont guide deepstrike anymore, really? that is sad to me as one of my fav 5th lists was a Fast/Drop list where I took almost all fast options (bikes, raptors, squads in rhinos all with icons) and dropped anything that could deepstrike on them for support (oblits, terms) not so much anymore, and the key, eh if your opponent is bright he wont let your key wielding hq anywhere near melee.
Those being the disappointments there are some things I really like about the codex, mostly all the options, it feels more like the 3.5 dex but has a good sense of balance that was missing in the last dex. I see a lot less spam in the upcoming chaos lists as the options will be so many. Need a meelee squad of troops? take 10 with pistols and swords MoS, Icon of Excess and VotLW (seeing that acronym wants me to say voltron instead every time) I like the new Fiends as they add some flavor, the helldrake is interesting and want to see how it plays before crying how OP it is. Taking a lord on a bike or Sorcerer on a bike with a squad of bikes is now a decent option. Juggernauts are cavalry now, that makes me so happy as I have a lord with a double bladed axe on a jugger already made and he will be wielding the axe of blind fury. I like the options, if you want to make really awesome units, you can, but it will be costly, if you want some more plain or specific units, they can be cheaper. and Havocs with Flakk Missiles will be making appearances in my army which will be new since I never took them before when I could take the very flexible oblit.
All in all i like the new dex a lot, I already have written up an Iron Warriors list with 3 fiends, a warpsmith and some IG allies with a squad of 2 basilisks. I couldnt do that in the last dex now I have the options and I cant wait to explore all the options as I have a 20k point chaos collection that with the new units will likely get closer to 25k.
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After reading through the codex and thinking about the options available, I have concluded that it is both a success and a failure.
It is a success because:
A) It has normalized the points cost amongst both the best and worst units, producing a very balanced codex with no obvious great choices and no obvious terrible choices (though some would argue otherwise).
B) Characters and some regular Units now have access to a greater selection of wargear then they did before, nearly on par with the 4th edition codex. For instance, it is now possible to have a Sorcerer with a 2+/3++ for a fairly manageable price.
C) Lots of choice in all slots of the codex, making for an army that has tons of opportunities for experienced players to debate on what options to choose.
It is a failure because:
A) Far too much randomness has been introduced to the point of hindering competitiveness against other armies that have a far better idea what they are going to bring to the field each game. Chaos Boons, the Psychic Power Tables, and the abundance of other rolled benefit tables (Huron, Possessed, Chaos Spawns, and Hellbrutes to name a few) add another level of randomness to an already highly random game which removes planning elements and makes player skill less relevant with the army.
B) Champions of Chaos is more of a penalty then a blessing by forcing you to challenge, and then even if you do win odds are the benefit you get from the Boon Table is going to be undesirable anyway. Very poorly designed special rule.
C) Daemon Weapon selection is dismal. This unique and interesting feature of the last codex just died completely to be replaced by sub-par named Chaos Artifacts, which in some cases (like the Scrolls) introduce even more randomness to the army that it certainly doesn't need. In my opinion they should've made named Daemon Weapons for every God with decent benefits to augment a holder of that Mark, but Phil Kelly really dropped the ball here.
One thing that really scares me about this Codex is the ramification that newer codexes will follow the same 'random tables everywhere' trend that is so reviled by experienced players. Can you imagine if Tau Markerlights start giving a random d6 benefit?
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I'm going to disagree with the random tables being a huge problem. I think it very well operate the very nature of chaos. the spawn and possessed I find it to be especially suited to, as they are the most touched by the powers of the warp. Chaos dreads have ALWAYS had a random table for fire frenzy, and random spell generation has been a staple in fantasy for ages, but like fantasy, we can at least choose where our powers come from. in regards to the chaos boon table, with the exception of spawnhood and nothing happening, none of the results are BAD. the only real downside is being forced into challenge (although I'm big on theatrics, so I enjoy challenges).
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I gotta say that I dislike the forcing every CSM squad to have a aspiring champ. The idea of an leaderless squad works for me, 'cause I've always figured after 10 millenia chaos marines to be maybe very professional, but still rather individualistic and perhaps even anarchistic.
But that's just me. :P
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A) Far too much randomness has been introduced to the point of hindering competitiveness against other armies that have a far better idea what they are going to bring to the field each game. Chaos Boons, the Psychic Power Tables, and the abundance of other rolled benefit tables (Huron, Possessed, Chaos Spawns, and Hellbrutes to name a few) add another level of randomness to an already highly random game which removes planning elements and makes player skill less relevant with the army.
The only thing that's really new here is the Chaos Boon table, and even that's a throw back to Rogue Trader and second edition, so it's not some kind of revolutionary concept for Chaos. The complaint about psychic powers, in particular, is one which I don't understand, because it's clear that powers are going to be selected by dice rolling for all races now, as that concept comes directly from the rulebook, so as other codices are updated, they will all be affected in the same way.
I also don't really understand how random rolls on a few tables undermine player skill to the extent to which you're proposing. Are you suggesting that good players are going to start losing lots of games because of rolling on these tables? I doubt it. In my experience, good players win because they're very good at adapting to rules changes, and have, in previous editions, always ensured that they have fielded balanced armies, which means when the rules change, they suffer less of a detrimental impact, because they weren't relying on one build to get the job done.
I gotta say that I dislike the forcing every CSM squad to have a aspiring champ. The idea of an leaderless squad works for me, 'cause I've always figured after 10 millenia chaos marines to be maybe very professional, but still rather individualistic and perhaps even anarchistic.
But that's just me. :P
You don't think that in the endless struggle for power among individual Chaos Space Marines that there will always be one who has risen to the top of his particular squad? I think that it makes perfect sense for each squad to have an Aspiring Champion.
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The very first glimpse I had in the new codex didn't appeal me. But when I read it trough carefully it's way better than te previous one.
There are a few things they've could worked out better like more options for cultists. I would have liked a rogue psyker in the cultists. Also the chosen are not really appealing. I liked them like they were in 3.5 edition. Option of a psyker leading them and the choice of skills like infiltrate, tankhunters etc.
Thousand sons are slightly cheaper then before and the primaris power is ok to complement the firepower from the rest of the squad. Them having the veterans skill helps them in CC to. But i do think it's dissappointing they can't have the flamer power. I would have liked the option for a level 2 upgrade.
I really like we now have the acces to the biomancy powers. There is much chance they improve the sorcerer or another squad. With a bit of luck you can get FNP Thousand Sons.
I personally do like the Boon table, it adds flavour. Also the options we can take for characters is a step in the right direction IMO.
All in all I like the codex.
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There is much chance they improve the sorcerer or another squad. With a bit of luck you can get FNP Thousand Sons.
Not from the aspiring sorceror, you can't. Remember that the first power of a marked sorceror must be from the appropriate chaos discipline. Only Mastery 2+ tzeench sorcerors will have any biomancy powers.
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There is much chance they improve the sorcerer or another squad. With a bit of luck you can get FNP Thousand Sons.
Not from the aspiring sorceror, you can't. Remember that the first power of a marked sorceror must be from the appropriate chaos discipline. Only Mastery 2+ tzeench sorcerors will have any biomancy powers.
Ah yes, I didn't explain that I put my sorcerer(s) in TS squads. :-[
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I absolutely love the dex and think that Phil is the best Writer IMO, though no one is perfect and there are just a few things I was disappointed in.
I don't see why Nurgles Icon is Fear and Slanneshs Icon is FNP... I really think FNP should have gone to Nurgle for obvious reasons and Slannesh should have gotten Fear or fleet or something else.
Other then that, I am disappointed in the Daemon Princes. They are all assault and no defense. Anything S10 and they cry like babies. Taking wings is a must where as before it was just highly recommended. A daemon prince can't even go toe to toe with any MC's as they will just get stomped because of the smash ability and only having a 5++. I like how they all have a hatred of another Chaos God but the other abilities they gain just seems odd, like not much thought was put into it.
Otherwise I think the codex is amazing and I am starting a pure Deathguard army and going the whole 9yards with all Forgeworld conversions and custom bases.
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I don't see why Nurgles Icon is Fear and Slanneshs Icon is FNP... I really think FNP should have gone to Nurgle for obvious reasons and Slannesh should have gotten Fear or fleet or something else.
It's because giving FNP to Nurgle would mean that Plague Marines have an utterly redundant icon option -- on the other hand, a bunch of necrotic bags of disease sealed in leaking armour and turning your mates into rotting carcasses should be pretty terrifying when they, in turn, just don't go down. On the other hand, Slaanesh getting FNP makes sense because Slaaneshi types consider pain to be quite pleasant, rather than debilitating. So they don't shrug off injuries so much as enjoy them.
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Other then that, I am disappointed in the Daemon Princes. They are all assault and no defense.
Pick targets that they can easily crush. They don't have to take on really tough units, such as other monstrous creatures. I don't think that they're really that bad an option, and they needed to be toned down relative to the other Chaos HQ choices, as they were far too good, in relative terms, in the previous codex.
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Other then that, I am disappointed in the Daemon Princes. They are all assault and no defense. Anything S10 and they cry like babies. Taking wings is a must where as before it was just highly recommended. A daemon prince can't even go toe to toe with any MC's as they will just get stomped because of the smash ability and only having a 5++. I like how they all have a hatred of another Chaos God but the other abilities they gain just seems odd, like not much thought was put into it.
Whilst I agree that the God specific abilities are a little lackluster I actually don't mind the prince, compare him to other MC's from other lists (other than spiders ;)) and he's pretty reasonable.
Against other MC's in combat he'll beat the crap out of anything other than a Bloodthirster, Avatar or maybe a keeper of secrets or great unclean one. His invulnerable might not be the best but its alot better than all the nid MC's, wraithlord, darkeldar and necron ones, his Init and weapon skill are very good and he gets access to a daemon weapon :o add to this the ability to fly and he's a very powerful (albeit expensive) model.
Otherwise I think the codex is amazing and I am starting a pure Deathguard army and going the whole 9yards with all Forgeworld conversions and custom bases.
Good choice I think Nurgle has been really well served by this codex :)
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I've been looking at Chaos off and on for years. For the longest time it ws going to be a Thousands Son list with many minimum sized squads to get as many sorcerers as possible to turn things into spawn..backed by s many spawn as needed to fit the points level.
..now...ZOMBIE HORDE!
My goal is to make a maxed out zombie horde, yes it's fail vs flyers and such, but I don't care I want 210 zombies on the table, it will happen!
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Actually zombies are pretty good verses flyers, if you spread them out and cover as big an area as possible you can make it so they have nowhere to move to as they can't end onto of your models, if they can't move anywhere then they are destroyed (unless they have hover).
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[mod]Can I just point out that the on-topic posts in this thread are beginning to repeat the same complaints, and the off-topic ones like the zombie stuff should really belong in their own thread? Let's try and get this thread back on track if we can :)[/mod]
I mean, I'm all for discussion, and I'm cool with Blindmage's zombie horde (though preferably in another thread dedicated to discussing its viability), but this thread is supposed to be about problems with the current Codex, and a lot of what I'm seeing is repetition.
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There is much chance they improve the sorcerer or another squad. With a bit of luck you can get FNP Thousand Sons.
Not from the aspiring sorceror, you can't. Remember that the first power of a marked sorceror must be from the appropriate chaos discipline. Only Mastery 2+ tzeench sorcerors will have any biomancy powers.
And that is what wrecked this codex by doing the impossible, ie nerfing Thousand sons by forcing them to take failure that is the lore of Tzeentch.
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And that is what wrecked this codex by doing the impossible, ie nerfing Thousand sons by forcing them to take failure that is the lore of Tzeentch.
I don't understand why everybody is so be-atched off about the tzeentch discipline. Bolt is better than ever since it's a beam now, breath of chaos is still the same, and the 2 others aren't terrible either.
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There is much chance they improve the sorcerer or another squad. With a bit of luck you can get FNP Thousand Sons.
Not from the aspiring sorceror, you can't. Remember that the first power of a marked sorceror must be from the appropriate chaos discipline. Only Mastery 2+ tzeench sorcerors will have any biomancy powers.
And that is what wrecked this codex by doing the impossible, ie nerfing Thousand sons by forcing them to take failure that is the lore of Tzeentch.
I am at an utter loss to see how being set with certain psychic powers (which are actually good if you calm down and read the rules) destroys the entire codex.
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no more toughness 6 daemon princes are a real dissapointment...
a nurgle daemon prince, slow and purposeful, and still the same toughness as an ork warboss... or a bike...
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And that is what wrecked this codex by doing the impossible, ie nerfing Thousand sons by forcing them to take failure that is the lore of Tzeentch.
I don't understand why everybody is so be-atched off about the tzeentch discipline. Bolt is better than ever since it's a beam now, breath of chaos is still the same, and the 2 others aren't terrible either.
Because it is the only dicipline our aspiring sorcerers can use and the best power, breath, they can't take. Doombolt and Tzeentch firestorm are ok. Boon can be usefull if you can use it on the aspiring sorcerer himself. According the wording about blessings in the main rulebook, they can but with the wording in the codex I don't know. But it is 2 risks of losing an important model with PoTW and the hit from the power.
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To add on to that, the Lore of Tzeentch doesn't really stack well with Rubric Marines when compared to, say, Biomancy. The Rubrics need a fair amount of boosting to get really awesome and they have little opportunity to do so outside of psychic support. Now, it would make *lots of sense* to have the sorcerer be able to psychically buff or otherwise support his own unit, but he actually can't. He just gets various kinds of guns, pretty much (one of which he can't use, as noted) and one power that has disturbingly good odds of killing him and he can't use on hardly anyone else unless you smack an IC in the unit (and do you really want to risk a 1/12 chance of doing a wound to your sorcerer so he can get...Crusader?).
Also, if we may break it down, power-by-power:
Firestorm: This one works *okay* with the Rubric's role as shooters, but it's pretty weak against their preferred targets (elite infantry) with it's lack of AP. There's also decent odds of tossing attacks at S4 or less, which are pretty weak, especially when cross-referenced with the likelihood of scattering and Deny the Witch rolls. This is a pretty good horde-control power, though, which the Rubrics could need. Not terrible, granted, but when compared with things like the basic powers of Biomancy, Pyromancy, or Telepathy, it's hardly a class above and the other lores have better alternate powers to be rolled.
I think this power works pretty well with regular Tzeentch sorcerers or on Daemon Princes, mind you, but they don't *have* to take the Lore of Tzeentch and, even if they do, still can get access to other lores, making the 'cost' of taking Tzeentch somewhat lower.
Gift: As mentioned, it's essentially pointless unless you're a Daemon Prince, but then you might not be able to cast it on yourself, which makes it *really, really* pointless unless you're a sorcerer hanging out with Terminators or some such and the gamble of losing your champ is less than the gain granted by maybe, maybe, maybe turning him into a combat monster. Why you wouldn't switch this with Firestorm, though, is beyond me. If they had set it up to work on whole units (say, for one turn), I'd be singing a different tune.
Bolt: Granted, awesome power. Works well with Kson weapons, give you anti-tank capability, auto-hits, etc. Range is a teensy bit short, but generally outweighed by all the good stuff. You've only got a 1/3 shot of getting it, though, which, if you're the lone sorcerer with his Rubric pals, aren't great odds.
Breath: Great power, but Warp Charge 2 makes it prohibitive on many models. It's only wounding on 4s, after all, which is nice, but hardly the Greatest Thing Ever. We've all used a lot of Wind of Chaos in our day, I'm sure, and it's nice, but it's also prone to crapping out at the worst possible times and can, occasionally, be difficult to position. It, obviously, doesn't help Rubrics at all.
In the end, my problem with Lore of Tzeentch isn't that it isn't good for regular sorcerers, but that it's completely unhelpful to Rubrics, who, let's face it, need help. We hardly need more guns in the Chaos list and I wish the psychic powers had a better array of buffs and de-buffs for Tzeentch instead of what they got.
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I have to agree that Tzeentch is really the only thing thats really been disappointing in the new book, although its not a new disappointment as they've been disappointing for a long long time.
They really could have thought of something more Tzeentchy than 3 guns and a comedy useless power. Its not exactly plans within plans within plans...
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I suppose the way wyddr put this has swayed my opinion. Lore of Tzeentch=Bad, at least for 1k sons aspiring sorcerors. I still wouldn't knock it on a character or prince, but for rubric marines, I guess I have to agree with the general consensus.
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It's not devastating, but I'm not convinced the Lore of Tzeench is that bad.
First, aspiring sorcerors have a 50% chance of Doombolt, since they reroll any result of a warp charge 2 power.
Second, whilst Tzeench's Firestorm isn't a plasma cannon analogue (be nice if it was, wouldn't it?), it's still a slightly superior version of a frag missile, which is not exactly ineffective against space marine-esque targets. More importantly, the ability to always take it if you want it gives the Rubric squads some usefulness if you take them and find yourself up against Cultists/Kroot/Guardsmen - it's a crowd control spell for a unit that's always desperately needed some ability to fight outside its specialism (the Icon of Flame also does this, but not quite as well, essentially adding the equivalent of about three bolter shots to each salvo for the price of one normal marine).
I agree that boon isn't as great as it might be; the Aspiring Sorceror can use it on himself at a risk.
You have a 1/18 chance of blowing your own brains out - but that's true with all powers.
You have a 1/6 chance of vapourising yourself with the feedback - although (given that it's a 'hit', I'd question if you can earth it through a convenient Rubricae lighting rod with Look Out Sir! rolls - it is an unsaved wound)
You have just over a 1/3 chance of gaining nothing (or at least nothing useful - Eternal Warrior is irrelevant for a 1 wound model, Crusader doesn't help with Slow and Purposeful, +1 BS is mostly useless if you don't have a witchfire to throw, Stubborn isn't as good as Fearless and with a 4++ save Shrouded isn't really necessary) or at worst turning yourself into a spawn.
That said, you have a 50/50 chance of permanently improving your character's ability to beat stuff up up close and personal. Given two or three turns of this, he's likely to be either awesome or dead by the time the lines actually engage.
Most importantly, you'll forgive everything the first time your squad leader turns into a tzeenchian daemon prince at the right moment. Trust me on this. ;D
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Your whole argument up there mostly depends on you 'playing the odds' to get things working. *If* you're facing hordes of low-T troops, *if* you get doombolt, *if* you roll the spectacularly unlikely Dark Apotheosis, etc..
Now, granted, we roll for powers in all cases now, but the lists of generic powers in Pyromancy, Biomancy, and Telepathy are, on average, better and more generally useful than the Lore of Tzeentch for the (wildly overpriced) Aspiring Sorcerer in Rubric units. I can tolerate Tzeentch's Firestorm, I suppose, but if I'm facing Space Marines (which, let's face it, is pretty damned often), I'm not expecting much of a payoff. I wouldn't take Boon if you paid me, I *can't* take Breath, and Bolt I'm only getting half the time. L-A-M-E
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Its funny,
You tend to see these arguments all the time after a new codex comes out and while you're not going along the line of "they changed it, its amphetamine parrot" path you're not far from it.
Instead of looking at what you can't do anymore, you should maybe look at what you can.
Tzeencth may not have benefitted the most from the new codex but I'm sure you can find some powerful armies in there if you really tried.
Have you tried?
Sound like a challenge to me, I feel a new thread coming along.
How many points are we talking and are there any specific considerations?
Winner gets the moniker, Architect of Lists!
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Your whole argument up there mostly depends on you 'playing the odds' to get things working. *If* you're facing hordes of low-T troops, *if* you get doombolt, *if* you roll the spectacularly unlikely Dark Apotheosis, etc..
Not really. Whilst I'll defend it, I'd still personally swap Boon out for Tzeench's Firestorm most of the time. But I'm not saying it's only useful "if I face hordes of troops". Firestorm is still, on average, about a third again better than a frag missile at murdering space marines. Regards crowd control, I was more observing that sooner or later you will face something lighter than space marines, at which point the dedicated astartes-killing thousand sons lose a lot of their effectiveness; the ability to trot out Firestorm automatically helps the squad achieve something other than just be double price bolters...
If I could pick a power from the tables, I'd agree with you, but you have some serious issues with randomness in the core disciplines too; the primaris powers chaos has access to are lethal but unpleasantly short ranged (especially pyromancy) - a primaris witchfire power with a 2 foot reach is very useful in what's essentially a small arms squad.
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Firestorm is still, on average, about a third again better than a frag missile at murdering space marines. Regards crowd control, I was more observing that sooner or later you will face something lighter than space marines, at which point the dedicated astartes-killing thousand sons lose a lot of their effectiveness; the ability to trot out Firestorm automatically helps the squad achieve something other than just be double price bolters...
Considering what you actually pay for to use that Firestorm it is pretty close to a slap in the face: The Aspiring Sorcerer almost costs as much as three Thousand Sons yet has the unreliable (both in scatter and psychic test) output of weapon that in the more generous circumstances has the chance to hit about three models, basically the Sorcerer would have been more impressive with an Inferno bolt storm bolter than that witchfire in many cases. It is a huge tax on Thousand Sons that you have this costly model that doesn't really do much at all for his cost, you would generally be better of with additional Thousand Sons instead of the Sorcerer, so the model that is meant to give the unit flexibility and an interesting angle is instead drain and little more.
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Considering what you actually pay for to use that Firestorm it is pretty close to a slap in the face: The Aspiring Sorcerer almost costs as much as three Thousand Sons yet has the unreliable (both in scatter and psychic test) output of weapon that in the more generous circumstances has the chance to hit about three models, basically the Sorcerer would have been more impressive with an Inferno bolt storm bolter than that witchfire in many cases. It is a huge tax on Thousand Sons that you have this costly model that doesn't really do much at all for his cost, you would generally be better of with additional Thousand Sons instead of the Sorcerer, so the model that is meant to give the unit flexibility and an interesting angle is instead drain and little more.
Whilst I am in full agreement that the TZeentch power list leaves alot to be desired (how does Tzeentch have the worst list of the three ??? seriously :-\) the sorcerer has alot of other benefits that you are paying for other than his single lackluster power.
He comes with a force weapon that can be tailored to fight all types of enemies.
That force weapon can cause instant death.
He adds to the DTW roll of the squad.
This is not to mention his character status, extra attacks and champion of chaos ability.
He may cost a lot but its a bit harsh calling him a tax as you get a fair bit for the points all things considered.
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This list I made based around Tzeentch is pretty good (in my opinion) at 2K.
2K Tzeentch Marines and Allied Demons (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=224348.0)
Because I'm actually considering investing in a Tzeentch army, I feel the need to weigh in on the topic of Tzeentch's effectiveness and psychic powers. I feel like the real potential in terms of powerful armies for Chaos Marines comes from being allied with Chaos Daemons, with the Marines providing the boots on the ground while the Daemons are specialized enough that their side of the army can be tailored to fill the Marine weaknesses.
Nobody has really considered this because Daemons are hostile or risky to most other armies, and are only Battle Brothers to Chaos Marines.
Daemons got an update just prior to the release of 6th edition that didn't get a lot of attention at the time but really makes sense to me now that all the pieces are coming together. Units like Tzeentch Flamers (one of the best units in the game imo) and Tzeentch Screamers work amazingly well in concert with Thousand Sons covering the areas of Horde-control, anti-TEQ, and anti-vehicle strongly.
As far as the Tzeentch Powers go, I think that the fact Aspiring Sorcerers are no longer required to pay for their powers is a great boost, in addition to there being no more Movement Penalties on Slow and Purposeful (The only significant penalty is no Overwatch but that's something not gained rather then lost), no more 'The Sorcerer Commands' BS, as well as no more 'roll more saves' BS when you lose combat thanks to Fearless.
These above boosts considered (not to mention an overall 2 pt reduction in Sorcerer cost) let's get into the powers themselves:
Firestorm of Tzeentch: bad power for a couple of reasons, namely its lack of AP in a predominantly AP3 squad, its random strength that makes it unreliable, all the hoops you have to jump through to make it work (Psychic Test, Deny, Hit, Wound, Save, additional hits). Even if I got Boon I wouldn't switch out for this for all the above reasons.
Boon of Mutation: If the Sorcerer can cast this power on himself (BRB says he can, Codex doesn't specify otherwise) then it is actually a 'good' but not 'great' power. The hits aren't the end of the world (ie they aren't AP1) and in the rare circumstance you fail your save you can always Look Out Sir onto another nearby Tsons model or Character. The benefits on the table are random but a lot of them are pretty good in terms of CC boosting potential. If by chance you turn into a Spawn (you cannot become a Daemon Prince this way) then the Sorcerer is actually BETTER CC support then he would be in his normal form.
Bolt of Tzeentch: This is a good, borderline great power that you have 50% of getting (look at it this way, an Aspiring Sorcerer either gets the power he wants or he plays the lottery with his soul every turn). The key is that it's a beam and not a 1 shot 1 kill it used to be in the last codex (for 30 points nonetheless, ugh). This means you can hit multiple vehicles/models automatically in a single shot with a decent chance of killing them - against MEQ the odds are in your favour to wound for the first 4 models you hit, and you are unlikely to get more then that.
Like I said above, I feel like the real potential comes with Allied Chaos Daemons to fill in the gaps. When you start considering units in the Chaos Marines book in this context, you can see some definite light spots. Consider the power of a Epidemus/Death Guard list for instance...
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Whilst I am in full agreement that the TZeentch power list leaves alot to be desired (how does Tzeentch have the worst list of the three ??? seriously :-\) the sorcerer has alot of other benefits that you are paying for other than his single lackluster power.
He comes with a force weapon that can be tailored to fight all types of enemies.
That force weapon can cause instant death.
He adds to the DTW roll of the squad.
This is not to mention his character status, extra attacks and champion of chaos ability.
He may cost a lot but its a bit harsh calling him a tax as you get a fair bit for the points all things considered.
You do get some other stuff but little of it is of much value for the unit except in crappy situations when their true purpose have failed them. The force weapon is nice and all but while it might scare off some independent characters it does very little against actual assault troops, which is in my opinion more common assault threats than multi-wound characters. I grant you that it can be quite useful against monstrous creatures though. His extra stats is hardly impressive, I would have been surprised if it was less an given their resilience Deny the Witch doesn't really spark that much either.
In the end you pay for him to be a psyker but what he brings is lacklustre, it isn't even comparable to a special weapon/heavy weapon in a normal squad unless you happen to be lucky with the rolls. I think a lot could easily have been solved with switching Doombolt to Primaris and boosting the ability a bit of Firestorm to actually work as an anti-light infantry attack.
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I think you can only 'Look out Sir' before you take the save. Once you do, failures are applied to that specific model.
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I think you can only 'Look out Sir' before you take the save. Once you do, failures are applied to that specific model.
This way only happens if there are mixed saves in the unit (which there are not, the Sorcerer and Tsons are identical save wise). If you check the Look out Sir box on Pg.16, you will see it contains a postulate for unsaved Wounds as well as Wounds.
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Page 16 – Shooting Phase, Look Out, Sir
Delete “(or unsaved Wounds)” from the first paragraph.
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Now before I start dwelling into this subject: It's good to be back here guys :) .
Now what really underwhelmed me with the new dex is how the Daemon Prince with the lack of EW and MUST take a mark is what really rustled my jimmies. Even though there's not much a str 10 shot can do while the Prince is flying high in the sky, it can still be brought down by small arms fire and then be shot down by insta-kill shot or force weapon, guess the Heldrake is the new Fly Prince now. Sure the Defiler is the new Carnifexe with the added IWND and 5++ save but it's just too expensive for me, taking into account how cheaper the new toys are and already is tossed aside by the now cheaper Havoks makes it hard for the Defiler to fit anywhere. Oblits lost fearless but got scarier and are back at T5, i'm ok with this, but sadly they will have to rely on either being static Joes or infiltrating thanks to Huron or Ahriman.
Also the lack of variety of Daemonic Weapons was also a letdown, would of loved to have the option to make your own DW on any of your close combat weapons for like 10-15pts and included in the boon table.
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Page 16 – Shooting Phase, Look Out, Sir
Delete “(or unsaved Wounds)” from the first paragraph.
They FAQed it? Okay, then you can make the 'Look Out Sir' roll before doing the save on the Sorcerer tossing it onto another Rubric Marine instead. The point remains that 'Boon of Mutation' wounds can be mitigated enough on the Sorcerer to make it a power work using rather then exchanging it for the next to worthless Primaris Power.
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Though the situation is slim, only being T5 and no EW on the Princes, if anyone has any sort of power or ability to reduce the T of the Prince for a turn and shoots it and it has to take a grounding test, it can then Instant kill them from the fall. This happened when I used my hive tyrant to cast enfeeble on my friends flying prince then shot him with some gaunts to cause him to fall to his death.
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Oblits lost fearless but got scarier and are back at T5, i'm ok with this, but sadly they will have to rely on either being static Joes or infiltrating thanks to Huron or Ahriman.
I don't know which codex you have, but in my book they are still the toughness of a regular CSM unless giving them the MoN. They also still have S&P so are not static IMO.
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Oblits lost fearless but got scarier and are back at T5, i'm ok with this, but sadly they will have to rely on either being static Joes or infiltrating thanks to Huron or Ahriman.
I don't know which codex you have, but in my book they are still the toughness of a regular CSM unless giving them the MoN. They also still have S&P so are not static IMO.
Yes I was implying the use of the MoN.
What I mean't on being ''static'' was that I wouldn't Deep strike them like I used to thanks to the homers on the Icons are gone and that I'd be using them near difficult terrain to deny enemy firing by sight, at least that's how the Meta in my side works since it's IG heavy ( unless they take MoN, it would be safer to walk around town now). What I mean't was sticking around terrains and Aegis, being more careful with them that's all.
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Page 16 – Shooting Phase, Look Out, Sir
Delete “(or unsaved Wounds)” from the first paragraph.
They FAQed it? Okay, then you can make the 'Look Out Sir' roll before doing the save on the Sorcerer tossing it onto another Rubric Marine instead. The point remains that 'Boon of Mutation' wounds can be mitigated enough on the Sorcerer to make it a power work using rather then exchanging it for the next to worthless Primaris Power.
I don't think you can LOS wounds caused by the use of this power.
LOS is only used when allocating wounds which you are not doing here, also LOS specifically appears in the shooting and assault wound allocation sections it is not a general rule to be used whenever a wound is caused.
I don't want to turn this into a rules debate so if people disagree we can start another thread.
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I really don't see anything wrong with it. Yeah they weakened CC greatly, but that's not just the codex's doings. That's really just the 6th ed rules. So you may have to change a few tactics to compensate for the loss of CC, and not rely on your vehicles to do alot of the fighting since they've pretty much degenerated into a support role rather than assault. But i enjoy it pretty well.
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Hi guys - been forever!
So from a nurgle purist pov, this dex is going to bring me back in. I haven't touched my deathguard w any seriousness since probably 2005. Not a fan of DPs, defilers. Feels like the new dex (especially bringing back demons and zombies) let's the horde back in. Lords/sorcerers, havocs, bikes, mutations, typhus, epi, reduced costs, marks by figure, some wargear options... Really good stuff. There's a few bumps... Dwpn options for example but... Meh. Looks like the orks may get a timeout for a bit. Actually excited... The girl, not so much :P
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Just seen the new Tau codex, and lets just say when you put it with the dark angels one... ours feels like ti was a rush job during kelly's tea break.
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Honestly, when I look at the chaos dexes (both of em') in comparison to the other 6th dexes its seems like the chaos dexes were intended to work in tandem, together they form a completeish dex with in the new 6th meta. Thats why at face value both dexes seem lack luster, but effective. Together they become a whole new monster.
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I've found both dex's to be competitive on there own but they do work very well together.
So far all the sixth edition dex's seem to be pretty even, dark angels certainly haven't been running amuck in our play group and seem a well balanced marine dex. Can say about tau for sure as yet but it looks powerful but limited so hopefully it continues the balanced trend.
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[mod]This thread was last active in December, ladies and gentlemen -- please leave the dead alone.[/mod]
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