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Author Topic: Wave Serpent as a assault vehicle  (Read 2468 times)

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Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Wave Serpent as a assault vehicle
« on: November 9, 2014, 06:27:06 PM »
Was reading the thread on desired nerfs to the Eldar dex - and came across the discussion about the serpent - so wanted to post in here.

I, like some in that thread, feel it should be more of a assault vehicle then a gun boat. My proposed way to do this is to first change the type assault vehicle. Next, the serpent shield gets changed to a 8'' nova that "shocks" any enemy units with the following profile:

Str   AP     Type
4      4      Heavy 3, Pinning, Ignores Cover

Thoughts?
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Wave Serpent as a assault vehicle
« Reply #1 on: November 9, 2014, 11:03:25 PM »
The one thing that keeps coming to mind about the Wave Serpent being an Assault Vehicle is a simple question.  Why? 

What is it about the Wave Serpent that would make you think it deserves the justification to be an Assault Vehicle?  There are only two types of vehicles that I can think of that use that rule, the first being an Open-topped vehicle, and the second being Land Raiders.  Open topped vehicles allow infantry to disembark from the front of the vehicle, as do Land Raiders.  No other transports in the game give that luxury, so nothing really screams "Assault Vehicle" to me.

If the "why" is answered, "because of the hatch ramp," I would point out that Rhinos and Chimeras also have these ramps, but are not Assault Vehicles. 
If the "why" is answered, "because the Eldar have dedicated Assault Units," I would point out that so do Sisters of Battle, and they do not have access to Assault Vehicles.  In addition, the dedicated assault units in the Eldar codex do have ways to reach combat more quickly.  Banshees gain extra movement on their run and scorpions infiltrate.

So again, what is it about the Wave Serpent that makes it special to have it be an Assault Vehicle?
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Offline volatilegaz

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Re: Wave Serpent as a assault vehicle
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2014, 03:56:20 AM »
The desire for an assault vehicle comes from long-term Eldar players who miss having an assault phase. It’s as much about the recent nerfs to assaulting in general and assaulting out of non-assault vehicles in particular as it is about the perception that an elite army known for it’s speed and elite assault units, can’t find a way to get anything but shining spears into the fray within the first 3 turns.
The desire to make it a Waveserpent comes from their vastly overpowered weaponry seeming to be an obvious trade-off to get an assault ramp, and the fact that it is our only dedicated transport rather limits the alternatives.

Personally I’d rather see a brand new assault vehicle added to our codex than trying to fudge it on the Waveserpent. I suspect the reason we won’t get either is because assault/open topped vehicles is the major USP for going DE rather than CE.


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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Wave Serpent as a assault vehicle
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2014, 11:27:42 AM »
In addition, the dedicated assault units in the Eldar codex do have ways to reach combat more quickly.  Banshees gain extra movement on their run and scorpions infiltrate.

So again, what is it about the Wave Serpent that makes it special to have it be an Assault Vehicle?

And people take Banshees all the time thanks to that better movement, right? ;)

@volatilegaz:  I'd love to see such a vehicle too. Go forge it for us! :)

@faitherun:  Now, as for the main topic itself, I think your changes look solid.  They're more effective against most gunlines ('crons, 'tau, carapace IG, and eldar) than most swarmy assault armies, which makes sense.  I'd call your changes a "Shock Shield," or something, and have it be a free upgrade that replaces the serpent shield. That way, all these changes are tied to a single optional piece of wargear.  You still have the option of a gunboat serpent, but you can also tone yourself down for free if you want. 

Also, what would you think of trading out the shield's shooting entirely in exchange for the ability to toss an invulnerable save on the disembarking unit?  Maybe a 4+ or 5+ on the turn they disembark?  Possibly only versus shooting? The idea would be to make this variant serpent useful to shooting units such as dire aveners in addition to assault units.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Wave Serpent as a assault vehicle
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2014, 11:47:36 AM »
So the desire to make the best transport vehicle in the game better comes from cries of "we used to be able to assault out of vehicles back in 3rd and 4th edition"?  If you want the Wave Serpent to become an Assault Vehicle, that increase in capability has to be paid for in some way, either increase the price of it or decrease its abilities.  And decrease more than just the Serpent Shield.

If you want to keep it the way it is (with the changes to the serpent shield that faitherun recommends), I would say that an appropriate price might be around 150 - 160pts base. 

If you want to keep the points value, then I would recommend changing the armour values.   A fast skimmer with 11/11/10 that can change a penetrating hit to a glancing hit, while being able to jink, and being an Assault Vehicle for 115pts is still a bit of a steal.

And people take Banshees all the time thanks to that better movement, right? ;)
*Shrug* with that extra movement, Banshee's can possibly execute a second turn charge.  Remember that there are very few dedicated assault units for the cost of Banshee's that are, really, all that effective.  Perfect example is that a 10 man Assault Squad with a power sword comes out to the same price as 10 banshees with an Exarch with an Executioner and 2 powers.   Both are fast units, neither is very effective when it comes to combat.
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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Wave Serpent as a assault vehicle
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2014, 12:23:49 PM »
So the desire to make the best transport vehicle in the game better comes from cries of "we used to be able to assault out of vehicles back in 3rd and 4th edition"?  If you want the Wave Serpent to become an Assault Vehicle, that increase in capability has to be paid for in some way, either increase the price of it or decrease its abilities.  And decrease more than just the Serpent Shield.

If you want to keep it the way it is (with the changes to the serpent shield that faitherun recommends), I would say that an appropriate price might be around 150 - 160pts base. 

If you want to keep the points value, then I would recommend changing the armour values.   A fast skimmer with 11/11/10 that can change a penetrating hit to a glancing hit, while being able to jink, and being an Assault Vehicle for 115pts is still a bit of a steal.

And people take Banshees all the time thanks to that better movement, right? ;)
*Shrug* with that extra movement, Banshee's can possibly execute a second turn charge.  Remember that there are very few dedicated assault units for the cost of Banshee's that are, really, all that effective.  Perfect example is that a 10 man Assault Squad with a power sword comes out to the same price as 10 banshees with an Exarch with an Executioner and 2 powers.   Both are fast units, neither is very effective when it comes to combat.

Wanting an assault vehicle isn't just about being nostalgic for the way things used to be. Units like banshees, harlequins, and to a lesser extent, scorpions are kind of hard to use in an edition that favors lots of shooting and doesn't let you assault until you've exposed yourself to fire for at least a turn.  The changes to disembarkation, introduction of overwatch, etc. may be universal, but it's a bit less noticeable for armies like marines that have access to land raiders and can take a round of shooting on the chin more easily. 

Additionally, faitherun's changes get rid of the serpent shield's shooting profile, which is arguably the most problematically powerful thing in the eldar book at the moment.  He's hardly asking for a free power boost here. It's less that he's trying to make the serpent "better" and more that he wants to sacrifice a function of the current serpent that annoys people in exchange for a viable way to use banshees effectively again.  If you still think that warrants a price boost to 160 pts, that's fair enough, but I'm surprised you seem to think he's simply making the serpent better.  The loss of that serpent dakka is a big loss!

Personally, I think the rules faitherun has proposed are a pretty fair trade. In exchange for a cover-ignoring, long-ranged anti-everything-short-of-AV-13+-gun-with-potentially-more-shots-than-any-other-gun-in-the-book, you get to deliver banshees/scorpions without being required to lose a handful of them to shooting. Plus, this variant has to play more forward to take advantage of its unique rules thus exposing it to assault if not shooting. 

That said, I do like the idea of an 11/11/10 transport.  Specifics like cost, transport capacity, and gun loadout would have to be figured up, but it would fill a niche well.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Wave Serpent as a assault vehicle
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2014, 02:33:45 PM »
Wanting an assault vehicle isn't just about being nostalgic for the way things used to be. Units like banshees, harlequins, and to a lesser extent, scorpions are kind of hard to use in an edition that favors lots of shooting and doesn't let you assault until you've exposed yourself to fire for at least a turn.  The changes to disembarkation, introduction of overwatch, etc. may be universal, but it's a bit less noticeable for armies like marines that have access to land raiders and can take a round of shooting on the chin more easily. 
But this is also the edition where you can take DE allies, have a more capable HQ unit to join the banshees (roughly 100pts), a cheap troop unit for holding an objective, and an open topped transport for another 100pts.  Also remember that Marine players have to buy a Land Raider to be able to assault on the turn they disembark, a vehicle which is at least twice the cost of a Wave Serpent.

Additionally, faitherun's changes get rid of the serpent shield's shooting profile, which is arguably the most problematically powerful thing in the eldar book at the moment.  He's hardly asking for a free power boost here. It's less that he's trying to make the serpent "better" and more that he wants to sacrifice a function of the current serpent that annoys people in exchange for a viable way to use banshees effectively again.  If you still think that warrants a price boost to 160 pts, that's fair enough, but I'm surprised you seem to think he's simply making the serpent better.  The loss of that serpent dakka is a big loss!
Before this edition, when the Serpent Shield only downgraded the strength of incoming attacks, it was still considered the best transport for the cost.  With how they changed the Serpent Shield, it does need a nerf.  So even if we went with the changes to the Serpent that Faitherun is recommending, but kept everything else, the defensive aspect of the Serpent Shield is still enough to warrant a price increase in the vehicle, and it will still be worth it.

Remember, for a marine player to have a unit that is dedicated towards assault charge out of a vehicle, they have to pay 240pts for that luxury plus the cost of the unit itself.  Usually you are looking at around 410pts, and that is for an Assault Squad, a unit that isn't even that great in combat, but is a combination that is taking up 22% of an 1850 list.

That said, I do like the idea of an 11/11/10 transport.  Specifics like cost, transport capacity, and gun loadout would have to be figured up, but it would fill a niche well.
Like I said, Eldar do have access to Raiders now, which fill that niche.
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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Wave Serpent as a assault vehicle
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2014, 06:46:22 PM »
@Lomandalis:

The "just put them in raiders" argument has irked me since it became available.  Having access to units made specifically for a given codex (even if some of those units are homebrewed) is preferable to me to simply taking an additional faction to unlock options you ought to have had in the first place. My main list is an eldar/dark eldar allies list*, but I still don't like my inability to deliver banshees (and other assault units to a lesser extent) without taking a dark kin hq, troop unit, and spending the unlocked FA slot on a transport. 

When the new eldar codex came out, I was really hoping for something to counteract the changes to disembarkation rules.  Instead, I got a gun (that is rarely a shield) that I don't have the option of leaving off my serpents and which makes my opponents go :|.   Faitherun's proposed rules, or something like them, make hard-to-justify units playable again and get rid of the shield-gun that annoys my opponents.  I like that.


Cost and Survivability:
Serpents are ridiculously durable. You're right to say that they're one of the best transports out there.  Their armor, ability to jink, and holofields make them quite durable. The serpent shield hardly comes into that durability most of the time though. After first turn (and even then, only when my opponent goes first), my serpent rarely has access to the shield rule because it's too busy shooting at things.  The cost for the serpent went up in the new codex, and a part of that increase was the serpent shield.  With faitherun's changes, the shield becomes much less powerful.  Adding the assault to it is worth points, but at least some of those points are covered by the debuffs to the shield as a weapon.  At least, that's the I see it. 

How many points do you feel the serpent shield's shooting profile is worth?  How many points do you feel the assault vehicle rule is worth? 

Now regarding marines, I'd first like to point out that marines that want to get into melee generally have other ways to cover ground.  Assault terminators can deepstrike.  Assault marines can deepstrike and move faster.  drop pods are also an option.  I tend to think that land raiders are a bit too pricey for what you get, but only a bit.  You quoted 410 pts for a land raider filled with a marine unit.  An eldar elite melee unit is like to wind up near 200 points (more for harlies with upgrades, less for banshees with upgrades), and a serpent with a gun and shuriken cannon (we'll say they don't grab holofields) is just shy of 150 points.  So you're looking at 350 pts to the marines' 410. A 60 point difference is no small difference, but for those 60 points, the land raider benefits from immunity versus plasma, most eldar vehicle weapons, most tau weapons, and plenty of other weapons besides.  Should land raiders be cheaper?  Probably.  Are serpents solid transports?  For anything that isn't an assault unit, sure.  Are serpents paying for the advantages they have?  I think so. 

Nope I'm not coming across as aggressive. That's not my intention. ^_^;

I think faitherun's changes warrant playtesting as they are.  Personally I think my opponents would be ecstatic to hear that my serpent no longer has access to its usual gun. 

"Wait.  It's an assault vehicle now?  What sort of thing are you going to assault me with?"
"Well, there are banshees. So it would be like incubi coming out of a raider, but they'd be lower strength, worse armor, and wouldn't have power from pain."
"That sounds like something I can deal with.  What else might come out of there?  What's the deathstar you're trying to hit me with?"
"Well, it would make it possible to use a seer council without bikes again."
"So they wouldn't have the ridiculous rerollable armor save, they'd be lower toughness, and they'd no longer be able to jink?  Okay. What else?"
"I could throw scorpions at you.  They're like... picture an assault marine, but he trades marine toughness for a sort of low strength hammer of wrath. "
"Mhmm.  Still seems reasonable."
"And I could probably buy a serpent for one unit but put harlequins in it instead.  They're as strong as incubi, but only on the charge, and only a sixth of the hits they land will ignore your armor. No power from pain either. Oh, and their saves are invulnerable but much worse."
"What else?"
"Er... storm guardians I guess?"
"Haha. Okay. I'll allow it."

Wraithblades might be nasty coming out of a serpent, but if that's the only unit that's really causing a problem, I think we can safely say they don't benefit from the assault vehicle rule due to their slowness and the fact that they have trouble perceiving the world around them.

I see faitherun's changes as a debuff for the serpent and a buff for units that aren't seeing much use right now.  I would have a hard time justifying a price increase for that.

 


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