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Author Topic: Is it possible to make an all Termie/Dreadnought Army? [Dark Angels]  (Read 2249 times)

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Offline -Makenshi-

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Right then, it seems I'm going through my bi-annual rekindling of interest in 40k so I thought I'd have a browse through some of my more recent codexes, throw up a few lists, read up a bit more on their respective boards and see if anything grabbed me enough to get me back into the hobby.

I've already made a few lists that those of you who read multiple boards may have come across, however after reading through my Dark Angels codex for fun earlier today I suddenly realised that I could use it to carry on an army I had originally thought I wouldn't be able to continue making due to the changes made to the the last Marine Dex, as it was a Terminator/Dreadnought heavy list and with the new Dex there's no way to do both, since they occupy the same slot and, to my knowledge, there's no way to shift them. However, when reading through the DA dex I realised that by using it (or more specifically, by using Master Belial) I could, as they can take Terminators as troops.

This appealed to me as I've got two unpainted (but assembled) Forgeworld Venerable Dreadnoughts, plus another Dreadnought or two left over from when I first tried to start the army (it was unfortunately around the time when I gave up due to time/money constraints), so it'd be cheaper to start it up compared to any other army, especially with Terminators being so pricey points-wise.

Now, I had a go at making a 2k list to make this work however after dotting the i's and crossing the t's I've become rather hesitant about it due to its incredibly low model count. Now, if such as list (even with a little work) could be effective (not looking for perfection or tournament-level worthy, just casual play) then that'd be great as it'd be cheaper than starting from scratch, take less time to assemble/paint, plus I can imagine there'd be a certain satisfaction in defeating three/four times your own number ;).

I should note that I'm not familiar with 5th Ed rules (if an army sparks enough interest then I'll get the rulebook, otherwise I won't bother), having dropped out during 4th Ed, although I am familiar with some general shifts. For example, pretty much everyone can do the old school fleet, but not everyone can charge after doing it. I'm also well aware of how prevailent mech armies have become.

Anyway, without further adieu here's the 2k list I prepared earlier, which'd be what I'd ultimately aim to collect



Important Note - Although I'm using the Dark Angel rules to try and represent these guys they are not intended to be part of the Unforgiven. In fact, their origin is with the Ravenguard. If you're really interested you can see an outdated list and their fluff Here.

2k Steel Dragons [using Dark Angels rules]
HQ
Chapter-Master Regis Quade (uses the rules for Master Belial) @ 130pts

Total HQ = 130pts

Elites
The Exalted Brother Tybalt and 'The Dragon's Eye' & The Exalted Brother Chael and 'The Divine Guidance' @ 380pts [190pts each]
  • Dreadnought
  • Venerable
  • Missile Launcher
  • Twin-Linked Lascannon
  • Extra Armour

The Exalted Brother Augustus and ‘The Saint Shield’ @ 210pts
  • Dreadnought
  • Venerable
  • Heavy Flamer
  • Drop Pod
  • Extra Armour

Total Elites = 590pts

Troops
[Deathwing] Terminator Squad @ 310pts
  • 4 Terminators & 1 Terminator Sergeant
  • 4 Terminators w/ Chainfists
  • 1 Terminator w/ Company Standard
  • 1 Terminator w/ Narthecium/Reductor
  • 1 Terminator w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher
  • 1 Terminator w/ Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

Note - This'd be the Chapter Master's squad of choice.

[Deathwing] Terminator Squad @ 250pts
  • 4 Terminators & 1 Terminator Sergeant
  • 3 Terminators w/ Chainfists
  • 1 Terminator w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher
  • 1 Terminator w/ Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

[Deathwing] Terminator Squad @ 250pts
  • 4 Terminators & 1 Terminator Sergeant
  • 3 Terminators w/ Chainfists
  • 1 Terminator w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher
  • 1 Terminator w/ Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

[Deathwing] Terminator Squad @ 235pts
  • 4 Terminators & 1 Terminator Sergeant
  • 3 w/ Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
  • 2 w/ a Pair of Lightning Claws
  • 1 Terminator w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher

[Deathwing] Terminator Squad @ 235pts
  • 4 Terminators & 1 Terminator Sergeant
  • 3 w/ a Pair of Lightning Claws
  • 2 w/ Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
  • 1 Terminator w/ Cyclone Missile Launcher

Total Troops = 1280pts

Grand Total = 1995pts

Model Count = 30 [3 Dreadnoughts, 1 Drop Pod & 26 Terminators]

~MTWC
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 07:07:35 AM by -Makenshi- »
Quote from: IainC
Because spamming the hotkey for a Deathknight's weapon in WoW is precisely the same as learning to use a sword in real life. That's why when Kendo grandmasters fight, they just stand there shouting keystroke combos at each other.

Offline Azash76

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Re: Is it possible to make an all Termie/Dreadnought Army? [Dark Angels]
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2011, 07:08:40 PM »
Looks like a fun list to play and to play against. Deathwing are still a viable unit in 5th edition simply because of the Deathwing assault rule. You don't see as many anymore simply cause Grey Knight Termie armies are more FotM. Also it's a fluffy list as well as effective which makes it that much cooler.

One question on the Dreadnaughts. Is there a particular reason you are drop podding your fire support dreads? Seems like they would be equally effective just coming onto the table via standard deployment. Yes it is very fluffy but with Deathwing assault your dropping in on the first turn anyway so it's not like they will be stranded out there along and dropping shooty dreads next to the opponent's force (short of tau) doesn't seem like a good idea. Losing those would give you 70 or so points to play with.

One bit of advice though I run a squad of assaulty terminators myself I would mix and match your SS/TH and LC terminators together. Against Horde opponents it will spread there concern out to two squads. Also you don't want to be caught out in the open against nids, berzerkers, etc with all I1 attacks the sheer weight of dice on those units (along with Orks) will put the odds in there favor. Not to mention your lighting claws are very vulnerable 5+ invulns are nice but they just are not a 3+ a few off rolls and a simple predator can shred the entire unit.

Looks like a good list and you always have the scarey factor of 20 terminators running around the field.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 07:20:09 PM by Azash76 »

Offline HORDE

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Re: Is it possible to make an all Termie/Dreadnought Army? [Dark Angels]
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2011, 04:12:24 AM »
actually, because of the age of the codex, it's 100 points for the drop pods and you dont get the drop pod assault rules.  :-[

i'm not sure i agree that DWA is what makes deathwing viable. it gives some tactical flexibility, but i've noticed a lot of veteran DA players only put 1 squad in reserve, prefferring to have stuff on the board.

what makes deathwing viable is:
1. 2 shot krak or frag cyclones. fantastic all purpose weapon. dont leave home without it.
2. 3++ storm shields. scoring unit needs to be more survivable? ok!
3. the support units in the ccodex, namely the ravenwing, but as makenshi is operating to his own fluff, they're not considered for this discussion.

As to your list makenshi - deployment is key. if you don't get that right, you wont be able to react quickly enough to change your plans.

i do agree that drop podding fire support dreads is somewhat non sensical. drop podding multimelta dreads, that i can see. and i think you need it because, while cyclones and assault cannons are great, you need to be able to eliminate high av threats to you early (land raiders, punisher leman russ, vindicator etc.). so, either drop the pods and use the dreads as fire support, or change the armament up for multimeltas and dccw.

i'd also say that as your squads will be footslogging, it might be wise to add at least 1 TH/SS to the squads without one. it means you can have the chance to shrug off plasma and lascannon hits (like terminators are supposed to goddammit!). you don't need to go crazy and have THSS all over the place, one in each squad is fine.

i'm not a fan of the librarian in the DA book, if i'm honest. he has decent combat stats (better than his C:SM brethren), but powers that aren't that useful, and a psychic hood that's limited to ld9. however, i've read the fluff for your army and completely understand why he's there. Use him as a buffer for wounds (psychic test to ignore a wound is nice), and like i said, he ain't too bad in combat.

if i was building a list that i wanted to work ok on the table but kept to your fluff, i'd go:
HQ: Belial, Master of the Deathwing (130 pts)

Troops: Upgraded Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 300 pts)
assault cannon, apothecary, standard bearer

Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 235 pts)
cyclone

Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 235 pts)
cyclone

Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 245 pts)
assault cannon

Troops: Deathwing Terminator Squad (5#, 245 pts)
assault cannon

Elite: Venerable Dreadnought (2#, 200 pts)
plasma cannnon, drop pod, flamer

Elite: Venerable Dreadnought (2#, 200 pts)
multimelta, drop pod, heavy flamer

Elite: Venerable Dreadnought (2#, 200 pts)
multimelta, drop pod, heavy flamer

1990

if you change the assault cannons to CMLs (and i'd be tempted to, they have great utility), you can get extra armour on your multimelta dreads. and you have 10 points left over for chainfists.

each sqaud should have at least 1 THSS.
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Offline WisdomLS

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Re: Is it possible to make an all Termie/Dreadnought Army? [Dark Angels]
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2011, 06:04:32 AM »
Just a quick note as I haven't seen anyone else mention it, gw released a new dark angels FAQ semi-recently that may have passed you by, its the main reason that DA are now more viable army as their equipment has been updated so it is the same as the more modern marine codex's.

I agree that the pods on the shooty dreads aren't really needed and I'm unsure if the extra armour is nessecery on them either.
The libby has his uses but I prefer a chaplin as a second HD choice, terminator as very good in CC but some things are better so the buff he gives is very useful, plus its good to take a combi-melta on him.

For the deathwing squad I think they're better if you mix them up a bit, I prefer cyclones (as they got better in the FAQ and can still carry stormshields/LClaws) to assault cannons but you may not have the models for those. One chainfist per squad, usually replacing the powersword, is a good bet and mixing LC and a couple of thunderhammers makes for more versitile squads.

Have you though about a small ravenwing contingent? Scout bikers with teleport homers and meltaguns are pretty useful.

Offline -Makenshi-

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Re: Is it possible to make an all Termie/Dreadnought Army? [Dark Angels]
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2011, 06:55:22 AM »
Looks like a fun list to play and to play against. Deathwing are still a viable unit in 5th edition simply because of the Deathwing assault rule. You don't see as many anymore simply cause Grey Knight Termie armies are more FotM. Also it's a fluffy list as well as effective which makes it that much cooler.
FotM?

One question on the Dreadnaughts. Is there a particular reason you are drop podding your fire support dreads? Seems like they would be equally effective just coming onto the table via standard deployment. Yes it is very fluffy but with Deathwing assault your dropping in on the first turn anyway so it's not like they will be stranded out there along and dropping shooty dreads next to the opponent's force (short of tau) doesn't seem like a good idea. Losing those would give you 70 or so points to play with.
Mmmm. Good point. Originally the list had tac squads and the like too, with everything either drop podding or teleporting in and without the benefit of Deathwing Assault. I'll have a look at dropping them. Oh, and as mentioned  by Horde, they're more expensive in the DA dex, so it'd save me more points.

One bit of advice though I run a squad of assaulty terminators myself I would mix and match your SS/TH and LC terminators together. Against Horde opponents it will spread there concern out to two squads. Also you don't want to be caught out in the open against nids, berzerkers, etc with all I1 attacks the sheer weight of dice on those units (along with Orks) will put the odds in there favor. Not to mention your lighting claws are very vulnerable 5+ invulns are nice but they just are not a 3+ a few off rolls and a simple predator can shred the entire unit.
Ok, I'll have a look at them and see how to mix them up (probably a 2/3 and 3/2 split for each squad).

Looks like a good list and you always have the scarey factor of 20 terminators running around the field
Actually, 22 (the HQs are both Termies), but yes, that should be quite fun :P.

i do agree that drop podding fire support dreads is somewhat non sensical. drop podding multimelta dreads, that i can see. and i think you need it because, while cyclones and assault cannons are great, you need to be able to eliminate high av threats to you early (land raiders, punisher leman russ, vindicator etc.). so, either drop the pods and use the dreads as fire support, or change the armament up for multimeltas and dccw.
I won't be able to change them to multi-melta's as I'm going by models I already own (and two are Forgeworld Ven Dreads at that, so it'd be a shame not to use them). As mentioned above though, I will have a look at getting rid of the Drop Pods.

i'd also say that as your squads will be footslogging, it might be wise to add at least 1 TH/SS to the squads without one. it means you can have the chance to shrug off plasma and lascannon hits (like terminators are supposed to goddammit!). you don't need to go crazy and have THSS all over the place, one in each squad is fine.
Ok, one for each of the 'command' squads should be fine.

i'm not a fan of the librarian in the DA book, if i'm honest. he has decent combat stats (better than his C:SM brethren), but powers that aren't that useful, and a psychic hood that's limited to ld9. however, i've read the fluff for your army and completely understand why he's there. Use him as a buffer for wounds (psychic test to ignore a wound is nice), and like i said, he ain't too bad in combat.
Mmmm, as you guessed its more of a fluff choice than anything as I too am rather underwhelmed by it, especially when it comes to representing a Chief Librarian. If push came to shove I would probably be ok dropping him, in which case it might be possible to add in another squad of Termies with the other savings being made.

if i was building a list that i wanted to work ok on the table but kept to your fluff, i'd go:
Interesting. I might see what a list without the Libby would be like, however as stated above I'm limited in what I can do with my existing Dreads.

if you change the assault cannons to CMLs (and i'd be tempted to, they have great utility)
Should I do that for the existing list? They're slightly cheaper afterall and don't take over the storm bolter (or, if you stick it on the TH/SS model, still allow it to have CCWs).

Just a quick note as I haven't seen anyone else mention it, gw released a new dark angels FAQ semi-recently that may have passed you by, its the main reason that DA are now more viable army as their equipment has been updated so it is the same as the more modern marine codex's.
Yeah, I had a look at that, which is why I went for the Cyclones on the assault squads (Heavy 2 for the win!). I was hoping for a few more changes, namely with the Libby, but alas, I'll have to make do with just the better equipment ;).

The libby has his uses but I prefer a chaplin as a second HD choice, terminator as very good in CC but some things are better so the buff he gives is very useful, plus its good to take a combi-melta on him.
A Chaplain doesn't really suite the chapter fluff and the libby was taken for fluff reasons (their Chief Librarian is the reason for their Dreadnought/Termie tactics) however I might drop the Libby to get another Squad of Termies (with the savings from the Drop Pods too).

For the deathwing squad I think they're better if you mix them up a bit, I prefer cyclones (as they got better in the FAQ and can still carry stormshields/LClaws) to assault cannons but you may not have the models for those. One chainfist per squad, usually replacing the powersword, is a good bet and mixing LC and a couple of thunderhammers makes for more versitile squads.
Now I think about it, I think I will go for the CMLs for each group, since it doesn't interfere with their weapons and is slightly more versatile then the assault cannon. Plus, longer range and all ;).

Have you though about a small ravenwing contingent? Scout bikers with teleport homers and meltaguns are pretty useful.
It probably would work better, however it wouldn't suite the fluff. Remember, I'm just using the Dark Angel dex because it allows me to take Termies as Troops, freeing up for Elite slots for Dreadnoughts. The Steel Dragons are actually a Ravenguard Successor who, like them, have a tendancy to drop their elite troops into the fray, it's just that the Steel Dragons have a lot of Terminators and Dreadnoughts and use them as their Vanguard.

Anyway, thanks for all your help, I'll modify the list with the suggestions given and maybe put up a second no-Libby list.

EDIT - Right, since there's not much you can do to customize existing units (can't even add numbers to the Terminators) I dropped the Libby along with the two Drop Pods, changed the Assault Cannons in the shooty Termie Squads to Cyclone Missile Launchers and used the remaining points to add in a 5ft squad of terminators (a #nother shooty squad). I also gave the 'command' squad 4 Chainfists to use up the spare points I still had left over.

~MTWC
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 07:06:16 AM by -Makenshi- »
Quote from: IainC
Because spamming the hotkey for a Deathknight's weapon in WoW is precisely the same as learning to use a sword in real life. That's why when Kendo grandmasters fight, they just stand there shouting keystroke combos at each other.

Offline darkstar12984

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Re: Is it possible to make an all Termie/Dreadnought Army? [Dark Angels]
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2011, 09:16:45 AM »
this may or may not interest you but an alternative way to running this type of dread/termie is to use the space wolves codex and do a logan wing army (where termies are troop chioces).

Now i can hear people scoffing already but can you feild 4 dreads with DA or equip each Termie in a different way i.e combi-melta+thunder hammer/storm shield+wolf claw etc.

The posibilites allow for a more flexible squad of termies than most armies will ever see, so I'd suggest you check out the space wolves codex and see if you couldn't make a better list using their rules. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised ;)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 12:13:45 PM by darkstar12984 »

Offline Unleash Mayhem

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Re: Is it possible to make an all Termie/Dreadnought Army? [Dark Angels]
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2011, 09:57:34 AM »
FotM is "Flavor of the Month" i.e. what is popular in the current metagame.

Another alternative could be taking a Master of the Forge as a HQ and getting 3 squads of Termies and 3 Dreadnaughts, as Dreadnaughts then become HS.

Offline HORDE

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Re: Is it possible to make an all Termie/Dreadnought Army? [Dark Angels]
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2011, 01:33:33 PM »
Darkstar makes a good point. However, some thing to point out:
The space wolf codex does not allow teleportation, so you'll be buying a few more drop pods (not a problem for your fluff but a problem for your wallet). Logan is also extremely expensive, its unlikely you'll get your librarian character in there.

However, you can equip the termis how you like, usually ending up cheaper.
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Offline -Makenshi-

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Re: Is it possible to make an all Termie/Dreadnought Army? [Dark Angels]
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2011, 02:02:19 PM »
this may or may not interest you but an alternative way to running this type of dread/termie is to use the space wolves codex and do a logan wing army (where termies are troop chioces).

Now i can hear people scoffing already but can you feild 4 dreads with DA or equip each Termie in a different way i.e combi-melta+thunder hammer/storm shield+wolf claw etc.

The posibilites allow for a more flexible squad of termies than most armies will ever see, so I'd suggest you check out the space wolves codex and see if you couldn't make a better list using their rules. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised ;)
Hmmm. Do the new Space Wolves have True Grit still? The original Steel Dragons used the old trait system to get Dreads in HS and/or Elites and True Grit for the whole army, so it'd help if I wanted to go for that, although I must admit that especially with the changes I've made to the list (dropping two Drop Pods and adding 4 Terminators) I'm quite liking the idea of using the DA rules to make a completely Dread/Termie army. With the new list I also only need to buy one Drop Pod while the rest of the army teleports in.

In fact, if I went with the above list I'd only need to buy 25 terminators, 1 terminator character/sergeant/something similar to reprsent my 'Belial', a Drop Pod and possibly some bits (depending on what's in the termie box sets), as I've already got 4 Dreadnoughts to choose from (although I have an annoying feeling that the pair of Forgeworld Dreads I have are the assault cannon/DCCW kind, so I'd either need to alter the list to have two of those or only use one of them).

FotM is "Flavor of the Month" i.e. what is popular in the current metagame.
Ah. I did actually look into a Grey Knights army (which I've played with in the past), however I don't like their colour scheme and it'd just feel wrong to change it or to try and use it as a counts as. I've also only glanced over the Dex admitedly (though I do own it). In fact, I only recently bought it and the Smurf Dex, although I was tempted to get the Space Wolf dex instead of the Grey Knight one.

Another alternative could be taking a Master of the Forge as a HQ and getting 3 squads of Termies and 3 Dreadnaughts, as Dreadnaughts then become HS.
Mmm, I only realised that when you mentioned it*. It'd probably work for doing something more akin to my original list (with Termies/Dreads acting as the heavy hitters with tac squads and/or scouts functioning as the troops to mop up the enemy/hold objectives.

* - I'm finding the new layouts somewhat confusing admitedly, as I expected something like that to be in their specific rules, like when Sternguard become scoring due to their special character (Pedro something?).

Darkstar makes a good point. However, some thing to point out:
The space wolf codex does not allow teleportation, so you'll be buying a few more drop pods (not a problem for your fluff but a problem for your wallet). Logan is also extremely expensive, its unlikely you'll get your librarian character in there.

However, you can equip the termis how you like, usually ending up cheaper.
Mmmm. I doubt I'd go with wolves then, as cost is an issue, which is one of the reasons I liked the idea of using the DA dex, as it minimises my spending as far as I can see. Still, I'll have to think on it a bit more I think, and maybe pop into my local GW and take a look at the SW dex.

Thanks for all your help :).

~MTWC
Quote from: IainC
Because spamming the hotkey for a Deathknight's weapon in WoW is precisely the same as learning to use a sword in real life. That's why when Kendo grandmasters fight, they just stand there shouting keystroke combos at each other.

Offline HORDE

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Re: Is it possible to make an all Termie/Dreadnought Army? [Dark Angels]
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2011, 03:28:17 AM »
In fact, if I went with the above list I'd only need to buy 25 terminators, 1 terminator character/sergeant/something similar to reprsent my 'Belial', a Drop Pod and possibly some bits (depending on what's in the termie box sets), as I've already got 4 Dreadnoughts to choose from (although I have an annoying feeling that the pair of Forgeworld Dreads I have are the assault cannon/DCCW kind, so I'd either need to alter the list to have two of those or only use one of them).

nothing wrong with assault cannon dreads. it's one of the basic options in the DA book (alongside multimelta, plasma cannon and autocannon)
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