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Author Topic: Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"  (Read 9885 times)

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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2002, 09:26:30 PM »

Well, I don't think the space marines are cheep! I think you eldar players don't know how to deal with them!

why, starcannons away of course

being hit all the time on a 3+, or blugeoned by str5 i5 guys gets stinky after a while...
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Offline Krayduk

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2002, 09:51:46 PM »
hmmm interesting...

I'm a Dark Eldar player, so I have my own perspective on this issue.

First Space Marines come in the starter box.  The other race is Dark Eldar.  

Dark Eldar have a huge learning curve, especially against Space marines.  So a new player would go with the easier to play race.

If your a new player and you express interest to the game, you will most likely be told to play space marines as they are easy to learn, offer flexibility, are easy to paint, and have the most veterans to help you out.

While I hate Space Marines I understand why there are so many of them.  It does not work with the fluff.  (My dark eldar would most likely avoid Space marine areas, and just attack Imp Gaurd, yet I always attack space marines)

So, I try to help the newbies as much as I can, and try to get them to play with a nother army, like Orcs, or Necrons.  Not Dark Eldar, or Eldar.  These are veteran armies in my opinion.  Because they are hard for a newbie to use.

Offline Eldanesh

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2002, 12:33:52 PM »
OK you guys are getting off my original point. I started this thread by making an oservation of "Tournament" armies. GT tournies are attended by hardcore gamers with the money to spend on what they like and the transportation, time off work, hotel room etc. These aren't new gamers, fresh to the hobby after buying the boxed set. These are the dudes that compete in GTs to rank on the GW boards. They predominantly choose the armies that will produce the best return for their investment, Space Marine (and mostly Space Wolves at that) or Chaos Marine armies, because they consistantly win tournies. Why is this? Because GW have so overly imbalanced the Marine list for the last 4 years that on the stats nothing else competes with 'em. Can they be beat with other forces? Yes, but that involves a lot of variables, dice rolling, missions drawn, player ability,.etc. But as GW constantly reiterates, both forces and conditions being equal the better general will win, yet under the current lists and by looking at the statistics this notion is just marketing again.

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Offline Spacewolf

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2002, 03:37:59 PM »
   I would say in order to pass judgment on the players that play marines you should ask or poll why they do play these armies. Then make some suggestions to GW.
 I will even tell you that the only two marine chapters I like are Space Wolves and White Scars. Why because of the fluff, flavor of the army so to speak. The rest I find boring.
 I do agree the are easy to play, and they tend be the best all around best troop. (although there are others out there that have better specialist). Could the marines be toned down.. Sure there are always going to be those that find the cheese in them (I am probably going to banned from playing space marines for saying this) and there is alot of cheese in there.
 But as long as GW keeps pushing them over other races it is going to be that way.

Offline Disciple of Nagash: GT

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2002, 08:44:50 PM »
Okay, let's take into consideration the different varients on the Emperor loving Space Marine:
1. Dark Angels
       Raven Wing
       Death Wing
2. Blood Angels
3. Space Wolves
4. Salamanders
5. Black Templars
6. Ultramarines
There is just more variaty with the Space Marine than there are with other armies. Hell, there are only three other armies with different sub armies, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar and Imperial Guard but none have the variaty of the beloved Space Marines! Also, games workshop considers the different chapters as different armies.
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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2002, 09:54:31 PM »
u left out the white scars

theres more marines than seperate armies too!
imagine if each CW and Kabal had soo much individuality in rules...
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Offline Disciple of Nagash: GT

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2002, 10:09:42 PM »
Well, as you can see, we could argue about this all day and night but it's going to get us no where. There are just a lot of different space marine armies out there, it goes with all the stories that's all.
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Offline Saturnman

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2002, 01:13:24 AM »
I play marines. I play Necrons now. It's my CHOICE to play what I want. Gajrgrr. Yea a lot of marine stuff is coming along,but I guarantee (hopefully) that GW is making a model run for all races. My guess is this; and think about it.

Most popular army -  Marines. GW starts off with new stuff for them.
Next most popular (From what I have seen) - Chaos. While the Marines are being covered, Chaos is being redone. Hmm, a pattern here possibly?

I refuse to believe that GW forgets other armies...if they favor marines so what? They are still making things for the other armies,might as well do the most popular one first. They added a ton- New rhinos,plastic noughts, new Templat boxed sets. But take a look at the new Chaos stuff. NUMEROUS models even a codex revamp for BOTH games.

Whatever...actually I subliminally think they are making more Chaos stuff to get people off marines...when the necrons were previewed I basically forgot my marines because of the advertising shown.Look at the latest WD,a third of it is Chaos for fantasy. Just as much info as the necrons..it's obvious they are hyping more for the other races.

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Offline Disciple of Nagash: GT

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2002, 10:30:30 AM »
I agree, Space Marines make them the most money, so why not build stuff that will make them money? Why would they waste millions on say ork stuff when they could put that into marines and make it back?
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Offline Saturnman

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2002, 03:06:44 PM »
Yep. GW is a business. They arent TOTALLY here for "just fun" - Marines are popular,popularity leads to profit.  Thankfully they havent totally ignored others,as the new DE rules just came out. (Damn DE!)

Offline DeadSeraphim

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2002, 03:06:48 PM »
Oh, I dunno, probably because it doesn't take millions, and they WOULD make it back elsewhere (*cough, cough, waveserpent cough*).

Stats and in-game bonuses is a gripe I'll save for a later time.

Gav Thorpe was on the Games Dev message board.  I'm NOT going to bother finding the exact link, it's been a while back now.  He stated that whenever they put models, lists, etc in to a game line they generate interest and thus sales.  He was using it as the reason why they're not printing a Squats list.  If you really feel like finding it, do a search.

I'm not going to tell someone NOT to play a Marines army if that's really their thing.  But think about it.  If they put effor in to an army, their sales increase for that army.  From the fingers of Gav Thorpe, who we *hope* understands his business at least fairly well.  So if they would actually divide their effort evenly they'd have (or one $#%& of a lot closer to) even representation between armies.

Like they do in WHFB.

Now realize I say this right after watching the SMs get yet ANOTHER model for their Rhino while I just got finished purchasing my third model from ForgeWorld for my only transport, at their incredibly inflated cost.  I say this after thumbing through a pamphlet in a glossy cover that they call Codex: Craftworld while looking at how more than one of the Marines have an actual complete codex.  And I REALLY empathize with those poor guys from Imperial Guard who have no real plastics, or the Tyranids who only have one codex book at all, etc.  And my God those poor Sisters players...  (don't mean to not include somebody's army here but there's WAY too many examples).

I don't care if you ARE a Marine player.  You HAVE TO admit that when they DO realize that sales are a reflection of effort put in to products and they continuously dump effort in to a single army while neglecting the others it's favoritism.

And you have to admit that the game would be better if even YOU didn't have to play at least every other game against Space Marines.

Offline Eldanesh

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2002, 04:18:45 PM »
I've said this ad infinitum, GW are marketeers. They've created the demand and the supply. If they published new rules for Tyranids every month in Chapter Approved and devoted the same amount of resources to the army with multiple codexes we'd be saying how many people  disproportionately play bugs. GWs fast answer to every Squat player about the codex they were supposed to get back in 2nd ed. was that "no one was interested." Of course no one is interested when the army has been put on perpetual hold with not even a mention of it. Now they're hoping to do the same with the Sisters of Battle and Eldar Storm Guardians. Let them die slowly by ignoring them.

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Offline Disciple of Nagash: GT

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2002, 07:29:50 PM »
Well, look at it this way. All the codexes are an imperial perspective, everything it right? So, why not push the imperium?
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Offline Spacewolf

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2002, 02:33:26 AM »
 Personally I would enjoy some differnt codexs that are non marine. It has always made me wonder why not differnt codex for Eldar Craft worlds instead of just one. Or even codexs for the differnt ork tribes. Differnt Chaos things a daemon codex, cultist codex's. I can definitly see the gripes here and understand it. Maybe if they did things like that they would generate more intrest...

Offline Son of Sanguinius

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2002, 05:49:42 AM »
WELL
IF THEY changed the box set to not incluse marines then more people would collect other armies
personally I would love to have and IG or eldar army but I also love my blood angels nd know them almost better then I know myself
if they changed the box set all would be fixed
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Offline feintstar

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2002, 07:59:30 AM »
As I see it there are two reasons why Marines are so popular. 1: they derive from the impression I get that Marines are the central masterpeice of the 40K universe; the epitome of the 41st millenium as GW sees it.

The entire gothic/medievil futurism is THE novel concept that GW has created. The central symbol of that gothic future is the knight of the 41st millenium, the space marine. They are a symbol that epitomises the 40K universe.
Everyone else, although original to some extent in most cases, are window dressing, and people for the space marines to fight against.

The other reason that they could be so popular is that, as a friend once pointed out, SM are really a testosterone army - Steroidally enhanced superhuman warriors clad in 1 foot thickness of plasteel and ceramite, weilding guns and swords.
Of course they appeal to those of us with Y chromosomes espeically (not exclusively of course) - the lack of subtlety, strength, eliteness, nobility (?), warrior monkishness of the space marine ideal is hardwired into our genetics and our society, in deep seated undercurrents merely muted since Homer's Odessy.

And since the majority of us are males who enjoy the idea of taking a bunch of little figures to war, of course we are going to get a disproportionatley high proportion of SM players.

GW knows the above two reasons, and tailors the hobby to suit the majority SM group. Not to do so would be to shoot itself in the foot. Not to say that the rest of us are unfairly treated, but if GW do not keep some degree of attention on the marines, their most vibrant recruitment of new players' intake, then they are not taking advantage of their strongest selling point. So they keep the marine range turning over - large, give them more vehicles, make their vehicles look better etc.

All in an appeal to the deep seated psyche of the majority, while epitomising the best originality that GW ever created.

It makes sense to me.
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Offline Snodgrass

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2002, 01:47:11 PM »
So the Space Marines win the popularity contest...
Wouldn't it be nice if GW paid half as much attention to their other armies?  I understand that they should put more effort into what pays the bills, but do they need around 10 supplements for SM while the most any other army has is 1?  Do they need to make specific shoulder pads to represent every chapter, while THE BEST vehicle in the game (you know what I'm  talking about) doesn't even have a model in production?  This isn't marketing, this is favoritism!  They hate us!  They're all against us, the dirty bastards!!   But seriously, it is kind of ridiculous.
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Offline DeadSeraphim

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2002, 03:16:43 PM »
I'm unconvinced that they win the popularity contest, as good as Faintstar's argument was for why he likes them.

A friend of mine used to own a shop, and I spent I-dunno-how-many wasted hours sitting around there (it would figure I'd get in to 40k AFTER he closed his store...) and watched as kids or adults would come in and look at the 40k stuff and think of purchasing armies.

I can't tell you HOW many times I saw somebody automatically like another army right off the bat, only to be talked in to Marines by the collective peer pressure/hype/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.  It's hard to argue against people spouting that their army is the best, and when over half the store plays it and your a newbie, I see the problem lying squarely there.  It gets backed up with "Look how much more stuff we've got!" every bit as much as "Isn't this the coolest miniature?"

From my own obsurvations, most people actually seemed to gravitate twards Nids right off the bat.

Now granted quite a few would still go with their first choice, only to switch to Marines later because of the easier lurning curve, and from that basis alone I think that we'd still have more marine players than any other army...  Just not more marine players than ALL other armies TOGETHER.

I'm certainly NOT saying that GW should ignore Space MArines or anything of the sort.  (Well, I'd LIKE to say disband them as an army all together and make Marines an Elite choice for IG, but it ain't gonna happen no matter what the fluff says.  Sadly.)  But equal distribution of products would make a good bit of that first impression not quite so lopsided, as the one wall full of Marine stuff and one wall for everything else.

Besides, when you check powergaming I-always-wanna-win ideas at the door, the more detailed and diverse your enemy the better the game will be for you.  Fighting the same old thing, stagnation, is the death of the hobby.

Offline Krayduk

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2002, 07:45:59 PM »
Elite choice for Imperial Gaurd.  Would'nt that be the day.  That's the way the fluff reads :)

Offline Spacewolf

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Re:Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2002, 09:01:16 PM »
I have to agree Seripham I used to ba a manager at a gamestore that our biggest seller was GW products. I often would have a new person come in and look at the products. i would go over and help them winding into a great sales pitch about all the armys in 40k. Now belive it or not just by telling them about the army's you can tell real quick which one first attracts them the most. I will admit some were just drawn to SM others to Orks and Nids. But Eldar was either and instant love or fear. People got worried about the painting and they would never be able to do it (Lets face it nothing compares to a great painted Eldar table). Just as I get them a little more comfrotable with the painting aspect some would be player would come in a talk them out of any other army but SM.
  Now I really cannot do a whole heck of a lot here. You do not want to jump a regular customer and make them leave. You try to talk to them nicely they get pissy and I making a nice sale.
 But here is the thing that gripes me. The player ends up getting bored in a few months because he did not get the army he liked and quits. Or get upset because he wanted to play something other than SM's but was talked into it. Then has to buy another army once they get use to the rules (yes I know I make money of that but I want them to be happy when they start 40k as well. They tend to spend more ocnverting armies that way).
  So as much as GW markets SM there are alot of Peer pressure player out there as well that could careless about nothing else but winning and so the take the easy army and win and themm push it on others.

 


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