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Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2011, 07:27:11 PM »
Quote from: IainC
citation needed
...and here I thought I was posting on the internet :)

Unfortunately, I can't directly identify my sources as several of them currently work for GW, although all at store manager level or lower. I also know a couple of bitter disillusioned ex-store managers...
I would love nothing more than for what they told me to be wrong.

Is he though? I can't see anything in that post that's particularly wrong.

Apart from misidentifying the main audience, the belief unsupported by facts that GW treats vets badly and the incorrect assertion that GW doesn't think vets are worth very much? Other than those points I'd agree he was spot on.

The people who spend the most on their hobby are young professionals spending their own money and with no families or other major financial commitments. These are committed hobbyists ('vets') with a lot of disposable income and the target audience for the support that GW extends to vets in general. Kids spending their parents' money are generally a way down the totem pole as far as value is concerned because you can't sell directly to these people, you have to sell the product twice for each sale and parents have different value thresholds than the kids do. This is true in most hobbies targeting a similar demographic.

I know you were very involved with GW a few years ago, but do you still have a lot of contact with people in the know? (Answer that as vaguely as you like if it is a tricky subject). I ask because your statement above is pretty much what I believed up to a few years ago (I have been buying GW stuff since the 80s).  Recent off the record chats with staff, who I know more as friends, seem to turn up the same few points:
- a proportion of  head office regard a significant proportion of vets as parasites- in a literal sense, no particularly as an insult.
- the majority of their large in store sales are parents buying stuff for kids for birthday/Christmas
-vets only produce a tiny fraction of the income to a store that kids do
- the age spread for customers is a very flat pyramid- many kids, few vets
-stores have a mandated time split between time spent recruiting new players (12 year olds mainly) and time spent keeping players in the hobby (i.e. stuff for vets). This is heavily weighted to recruitment.

Outside of these talks, I have seen the closing of gaming rooms, the banning of specialist games being played in store, the enforcement of 3 introductory tables, one for each system, that can only be played on by those new to the hobby (even at 9pm on vet nights, with only 3 other tables available), the removal of the bits ranges, severe lack of support for specialist games... the list goes on.

However I am not a bitter, GW hating warmachine player (although I know a fair number of these). I love their games, their miniatures and their worlds. I would love to be able to change it but I am fairly resigned to being a second class customer. My time is far more pressured than my cash is so things like apocalypse and all the lovely giant forgeworld stuff are just not that much use to me. At the other end of things, the 40k intro table at the local store has a stomper on it- I asked it it was just for show and was told that staff would consider selling one to beginners...


Sorry, this has been a bit long, but this is why I would be really surprised if they went to resin for uniques/small numbers- it would prevent what I believe to be a large part of their market from using all the miniatures.

...but hey, despite the blow to my massive ego, I would love to be wrong on this :)


Offline juliusb

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2011, 08:38:25 PM »
Resin is terrible for small models; I thing GW could and should get the accountants, purchasers, manufacturing and design people all in the same room to figure out how they can transfer everything to plastic.

I don't know much about mini manufacturing but I an an economist and my understanding is that the problem with plastc is that the molds are expensive and they only become cost effective in mass quantities.

I don't have inside knowledge of GW sales but I would propose that they make 3 character packs for around $35 dollars.

It could possibly work because each box would guarantee the sale of 3 characters.  The upside for players is that they get cheaper, superior characters and they could split a box with a friend thus saving money.  The upside for GW is that not everyone can or will split a box and they will get additional sales from players who buy the box for 1 or 2 of the models but end up just keeping the 3rd for themselves.

Whatever happens, GW sells 1 kit from 1 mold and because they're wrapping up the sales of 3 different units into 1 kit, it might increase volume enough to justify the plastic mold in the first place.  Again, I don't have inside knowledge of sales to say if my example would work.

It would take coordination from all levels of the business to figure it out but I think GW needs to identify plastic as the solution and find a profitable way to make it happen.
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Offline slinky1984

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2011, 08:48:06 PM »
@small_furry_spider

I'm not going to get into a discussion about target audience because I honestly think if GW thought they could sell this stuff to 3 year old's they would but as a company that is out to make money for it's stock holders why wouldn't they chase the thing that is making them money? Forgeworld was the only off shoot of the GW company that showed a positive income with a 4% overall drop in sales (Again, this is only true if what I heard on 40k radio is correct). If I was a stock holder I think I would expect them to go after that and with people like Privateer Press moving to plastics and resin the only way they can stay competitive and relevant is to run with the pack.

Metal works but it's old and unnecessary so why wouldn't they update and stay current in the same way that other companies have?
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Offline Lorizael

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2011, 02:57:47 AM »
Forgeworld was the only off shoot of the GW company that showed a positive income with a 4% overall drop in sales (Again, this is only true if what I heard on 40k radio is correct).

GW predicted that they would be 4% below their estimated profits at the end of the financial year. The company is still well into plus figures, just not by as much as they intended. This is cited as due to a lowering in sales over the christmas period- something that effected pretty much every business in the UK.

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2011, 08:00:24 AM »
I suspect that it will all depend, to a certain extent, on the type of resin used.  The resin Forgeworld uses is awful in my opinion, and suffers from all the problems highlighted in this thread, so I hope that GW do not use this resin type for their models.  Regardless of which type is used, I remain unconvinced about its durability relative to metal, as all resin tends to be brittle, and I worry that it will break too easily.

I understand why GW wants to move away from metal models, but I would have thought that it would just be more logical to make everything out of plastic, and not go down the resin path at all.  Plastic suffers from a loss of detail, relative to metal figures, but is resin any better than plastic in this respect?  Based on Forgeworld's resin products, I am not convinced, but a different type of resin may be better at highlighting details on models.
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Offline High Grandmaster smithmyster666 of the Grey Knights

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2011, 10:09:27 AM »
i disagree very much with the statement youve made on plastics being less detailed, look at the new grey knights, they are more detailed than the previous era metals, they are on a detail par with the new kaldor model, so id say that a swap over to plastic is only being put off because character models dont sell anywhere near as much as the troop boxes
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Offline slinky1984

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2011, 12:16:02 PM »
GW predicted that they would be 4% below their estimated profits at the end of the financial year. The company is still well into plus figures, just not by as much as they intended. This is cited as due to a lowering in sales over the christmas period- something that effected pretty much every business in the UK.

Ah I see, Well my only card in the discussion is what I heard and without physically seeing the report I couldn't comment much further.


The only way I see plastic characters is if they put out generic characters that can only make 1 or possibly 2 characters from a box similar to what they did with the space marine captain box. I don't see them doing that however because each character has pretty unique characteristics and the molds for that would be expensive I believe.
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Offline Ghostofman

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2011, 01:06:01 PM »
Sadly that means profits for third parties bitz vendors that GW will never see. I'd like more special character mix-n-matches too, but when they can only reasonably go for $15, only need to be bought once or twice by your average player, and have things inside like a combi-melta that can go for $8 on e-bay...

While 3rd party vendors selling off bitz piecemeal are just part of the business to an extent, when a 3rd party can make 2-3x in bitz what a whole box goes for at retail, accountants and sales managers get upset.



That said, remember that switching to Resin isn't just a snap-o-the fingers thing. You need to cast new molds, probably out of slightly softer material that won't last as long (so will require regular replacement), and you need vacuum and pressure pots to help cast new models that aren't full of airbubbles, not to mention re-train your prodcution line staff in the use of the new equipment, make any and all changes needed to meet new safety and hazmat requirements (which probably also means adjustments to the disposal contract).

Even with the cost of metal going up, switching to resin isn't gonna be a cheap quick thing (even with forge world experience you'll still have problems with things like varying local laws and regs, or if they move production to forge world, shipping and customs)

So until the press release come out, it probably makes more sense to assume that metals are either being discontinued alltogether, or that they'll be direct-only.

Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2011, 01:57:39 PM »
Another slightly mad idea would be to rapid prototype the models that are currently made in metal. I am not sure it is possible or even cost effective, but it will be soon. I only have experience with prototypes of much larger simpler parts so I do not know what the high end is capable of. Thoughts?

Offline Ghostofman

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2011, 02:31:11 PM »
I've done some RP work in back in school (wow, I've really done a little of everything...) and no, not a good option.

The cost isn't low enough, the equipment isn't affordable, the speed of production isn't high enough, and the final products aren't robust enough (=<Resin).

Rapid prototyping is awesome for sure, but you get exactly that out of it, a prototype. Not a finished product.

Offline slinky1984

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2011, 11:47:55 PM »
So going to buy a few things today and noticed the LGS was baron of blister packs. When asked, the owner replied that he can't get them unless he buys them from other game stores (he's into buying out stores) because GW is no longer letting him buy blisters. His claim is they are definitely going to boxes. When pushed if he knew whether they were going to resin he locked up and said I have no idea but they will be in boxes. I don't know that he should be a trusted source or not because it's not a GW direct store but they do a ton of GW business (he's bought out all the competition in two towns)
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Offline High Grandmaster smithmyster666 of the Grey Knights

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2011, 08:57:04 AM »
See now I'd rather pay say £25-30 for around 5-6 SC's in a single box, I can see both advantages for us the consumer and GW itself, yes its profit margin per model would go down (yay for us) however, sales are likely to increase by approximately 20-30% per figure because think about it, as it is now, you want an SC, you just buy the one you want right? And your likely to only ever field 1-2 of them, however, if your now buying 5-6 of them per person, the amout sold has gone up dramatically, I think there is only so higher price they can put on these boxes if its true, otherwise it will work out better to just buy what you want from an internet dealer, but it sure would be nice if in say july, gw announces its releasing a load of extra SC's and they are repackaging the existing ones
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Offline Bumbles

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2011, 07:31:59 PM »
if resin is such a parakeet to work with, turns out badly at time from the moulds, and is possibly lethal, I can't see GW using it in the full knowledge that a good 90% of their customers convert their models even in slight ways (I've never seen someone other then a GW store employee field an army that doesn't have a few conversions, even simple ones like weapon or head swaps). Weren't some of the first generation models lead rather then pewter? Same thinking IMO if it's a safety matter.

Frankly, GW should just go all plastic. Isn't the current Chaos Lord plastic? He's the same price as the old lord who was metal.

Offline Disciple of Nagash: GT

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2011, 11:51:42 PM »
I will throw in my experiences with working with both pewter and resin.

What I did was tried to replicate a bit with resin and then the same bit with pewter (old warhammer figures) just to see if we could do it and how easy it was.

First, pewter molds can be used as resin molds without any extra effort, and retain the same details and vice versa actually (the rubbers that are used for the molding for resin can withstand the temps used for melting pewter), so there is no start up cost for switching over from metal to resin.

Second, the reason why Forgeworld products have flaws is human error and that alone, workers rushing production too quickly. Resin takes a lot longer to set than pewter does. Larger pieces also set quicker than smaller pieces initially but take longer in the end. The reason for this is the chemical process that turns the Part A + B mixture happens faster in the larger concentrations because they're able to heat up more than the smaller pieces. As a result, they don't fully set as quickly (as they're warmer longer), so when they're taken out of the molds too soon, they warp.

Third thing, we actually found we had more flaws and it was harder to get detail with pewter than we did we resin. We did several attempts at this. This could be because of the smaller pieces we were pissing around with, who knows, but we got a lot more air trapped in the molds because of how quickly the pewter was setting. As soon as it's taken from the heat, it cools and starts to set. The good thing is though, when you mess up a piece, you just throw the pewter back in and start over.

Fourth, there's a LOT of waste with resin. I mean A LOT, and I can't stress that enough. Every piece that's flawed, every time you make something there's a lot of flash and spill over. These are garbage basically. So despite the fact that resin itself is cheap, the waste makes up a bit of it.

Lastly, molds are cheap and easy to produce. My understanding is that molds for plastic are done using steel, which take several man hours to produce each piece. So the initial start up is very expensive for plastic, where the material is cheap. With resin, it's both cheap for the molds, and cheap for the material for the model, so it's win win for everyone.
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Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2011, 06:18:21 AM »
Does anybody know what exactly will happen with the old metal models?
Will they be transformed into resin and put into a box or will they disappear?
Will GW start making only boxes of units and some models won't be available individually anymore?

I don't really care about resin or metal, though technically metal survives longer, people might still find our metal models in a couple of hundred years, while the plastic ones last less time :p

It's clear that plastic is easier to work with, metal is a pain to cut and sculpt.

I find all this hard to believe, because I find the blister system convinient in a lot of cases, though working with metal is a pain.
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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2011, 08:29:07 AM »
Honestly I more saddened by the loss of some very nice metal models than the loss of metal models (hoping that made sense). I dont think resin will be too big of a deal; Military Models (1/35,1/48,1/72 scales etc) have been using Resin parts over metal for years and they work quite well. That being said it is going to be very difficult for young gamers to adapt to this.
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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2011, 11:53:33 AM »
I asked my local store's manager about this. He said he was confident we will be getting resin models and although he didn't know when the change would start properly, he thought it wouldn't be too far off. He also said they'll probably phase the resin in and metal out gradually. Once all the stock for a metal product is gone, it'll be replaced with the new ones which he reckons will be a resin/plastic mix. Eventually, as more and more metal kits run out of stock, they'll all be replaced by the new material.
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Offline Omegabob

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Re: GW stopping production of Metal Models
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2011, 02:08:25 PM »
I just want to say here on behalf of the Eldar and Chaos models..... about time! ;D

This will be great if the models are getting changed from metal to resin/plastic and if they are going to be multi-part models now.  I don't like the metal models because most of them are just one piece and pre-posed.  If the existing metal models are just going to be cast in a different material I don't see this as being a big improvement for me personally.  Anyway, I'm eager to hear some more news about this issue and see how it turns out.

Offline IainC

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Re: GW stopping production of Metal Models
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2011, 02:44:00 PM »
I just want to say here on behalf of the Eldar and Chaos models..... about time! ;D

This will be great if the models are getting changed from metal to resin/plastic and if they are going to be multi-part models now.  I don't like the metal models because most of them are just one piece and pre-posed.  If the existing metal models are just going to be cast in a different material I don't see this as being a big improvement for me personally.  Anyway, I'm eager to hear some more news about this issue and see how it turns out.

GW are not going to resculpt the entirety of the metal range into multi-part plastics all at once. The same models will continue to be produced only cast in resin rather than metal. As they get replaced with new ranges of course, I expect that more plastic kits will be the standard - but GW was already a long way down that path before this news.
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Offline Seattledv8

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Re: GW going from metal to resin discussion thread
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2011, 03:32:09 AM »
I talked to my local GW manager ....Oh no we still are putting out metal, we just will not allow non -GW stores to sell them....we will still sell them as special order items.

FEH

Yeah right.....step one in removing metal from the line.
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