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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« on: March 22, 2017, 10:37:47 PM »
So, first bits of info of 8th comes out, along with teasers of new death guard. I'm stoked!








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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2017, 03:21:41 AM »
I really like those Death Guard models, it's been a while since they had a decent update. They've done a great job on them!
Not entirely sure about the rumoured rules though, not a fan of Charging units always attacking first. Gonna hurt armies like Dark Eldar unless the movement stat coming back allows them to more reliably make that charge.
Like the idea of Armour save modifiers coming back though, always one of my favourite mechanics that they got rid of.
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2017, 05:29:47 AM »
Well, looks like the cat is out of the bag.

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I'm so excited about all of these changes. I'm especially excited for players bring rewarded for bringing thematic armies. I'm curious to see how that'll work. Bringing back the movement stat also just makes sense.
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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2017, 06:17:00 AM »
It's a very mixed bag.

On the one hand, I like the idea of bringing back movement values and armour save modifiers, however, on the other, I am wary of the proposed changes to the morale system (it makes sense for some units in 40K to be unaffected by morale) and especially the idea of charging units always striking first.

Having diverse ways to play looks attractive on paper, but it does not guarantee that you will be able to find players who want to play the same way as you.  This has always been one of the problems with choice.

Overall, much will depend on how they plan to streamline the rules.  If GW decides to shift all the excesses of current 40K, such as flyers, superheavies, silly formations, and other grand concepts over to one form of 40K, with clearer delineations than are present in the current multitude books, I would be potentially interested in playing the streamlined version.  If not, I'll stay on the sidelines.  For now, it's just too early to tell.

Not entirely sure about the rumoured rules though, not a fan of Charging units always attacking first. Gonna hurt armies like Dark Eldar unless the movement stat coming back allows them to more reliably make that charge.

Unless the rules for assaulting out of transports are changed and/or, as you say, mobility becomes much more critical, owing to the changes in movement values.  If such changes were to occur fast and mobile armies, such as Eldar and Dark Eldar, would be able to dictate charges more often than not.
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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2017, 07:33:35 AM »
I'm very happy about these rumors.  I like the changes to combat, LOVE armor save modifiers, and really, really like the change to Moral. Taking wounds instead of losing a huge squad of guys due to sweeping advance is great... Plus bringing back individual movement is FANTASTIC! I think that is the biggest stand out reveal of all. Instead of having all these unit type classifications and forcing every unit into those molds, it allows the unit to better function as it was intended. I'm thinking of Dark Eldar and Tyranid units who should move faster in each phase of the game than their counter-parts.

However the main thing I want... more than anything else... is quick games. Age of Sigmar games take an hour to play and with beefy point totals. Thats what I want more than anything. I love playing but the investment of time is RIDICULOUS.

Off to a very positive start and the fact that it was revealed before hand is excellent. I can't say enough how much I love GW's new approach... Also that video was hilarious. Love it!
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2017, 07:51:54 AM »


Off to a very positive start and the fact that it was revealed before hand is excellent. I can't say enough how much I love GW's new approach... Also that video was hilarious. Love it!

Yeah, based on that video, the new Deep Strike Mechanic is going to be very impactful on the game  ;D ;D
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Offline dog_of_war

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2017, 08:37:32 AM »
I'm super stoked for new models. New thematic rules for armies also always peak my interest. Changing of the core rules simply creates one more barrier for me to play, especially for a game with such a complex rule set as 40k. I not only have to purchase and learn new rules, I have to convince my already reluctant gaming group to do so as well. May have to just stick with the 7th core set when 8th drops. At least it'll be much cheaper to buy outdated codex supplements than keeping up with all the new releases. Unless they give out free rule sets like AOS this time around, I may end up just sticking to the hobby aspect of the game.

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2017, 09:59:56 AM »
The Death Guard look amazing. I'm in no way a chaos player, or collector, but those minis may well push me towards at least collecting a small force. They look helluva fun to paint.

As for the rules, I'm a big fan of the movement and armour save changes. On the fence about the others until I see them in action. The big thing for me will be being able to play a faster game. I just don't have time for games over 1500 its these days. Even then, I'd prefer something that I can get done in a couple of hours, whilst still being tactically rewarding (I'm a slow player, my brother, who I usually play against, is glacial).
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2017, 11:49:23 AM »
Pure speculation, but I'm hoping for some changes in army building and a rehaul of the psychic phase. Those two elements of the game are being crushed under their own weight.

I love the Diversity of formations and multiple detachments, but it's gotten super unweildly.

In a perfect world, I'd love to see the following change.

I'd love to see the armies based on a Cad again, where units in formations count against units taken in your cad.

For the detachment of formations, I'd see the cad restrictions waived, but you can't take any other detachments.

This would make Cads far more flexible and viable, where detachments of Formations allow more bonuses, but much more restriction.

I'd keep allied detachments too, but any allied formations have to fit into the allied detachment organization chart.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2017, 03:58:57 PM »
Armour save modifiers: OK this worked in 2nd ED because it was low scale armies, so volume of fire wasn't a huge deal, now you can bring a tone or fire and it was also balanced out by to hit modifiers, less hits, less saves needed.

Move stat: no problem with this as long as it aligns with the fluff and not used as another marine buff.

Charging: Need the details, such as what happens with unwieldy weapons etc,



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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2017, 09:56:59 AM »
GW is genius I actually laughed out loud watching the video and reading the article.

The best bit has to be
Quote from: Warhammer Community
Armour save modifiers. This topic comes up almost as often as Sisters of Battle… so we’re going to bring them back.

What a brilliant bit of humour.

I don't remember a time that 40k had a Movement stat so can anyone tell me whether or not it was an unpopular change when it got removed?
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2017, 10:07:16 AM »
I'm on the fence on Armor Save mods--it largely depends on how it is implemented. If mods are restricted for AP4/3/2/1 weapons, then maybe that's okay (watch Heavy Bolters make a comeback!). However, if we're back in the bad old days of 2nd Ed (seriously, WHY do people like that ruleset? It was horrible in every phase of the game. Oh, if you had seen how abusive I was with it in high school, you would weep.), then I've got a problem.

If a basic bolter (and all weapons of similar AP) wind up with a -1 armor save mod, that is the world's biggest nerf to everything and anything that relies on its armor save to be a functional unit (so, all MEQ armies, Necrons to a lesser extent, many Tau units, a lot of MCs). And then you've got Lascannons knocking a -6? Melta weapons at -5? Forget it--armor becomes almost worthless. While I can certainly adapt to that, entire army builds are invalidated for, in my opinion, poor reasons.

I would hope that, yeah, they get rid of the "one save only" rule and let you take cover and armor and invuls (if you have them). That would be exciting for the primary reason that my Thousand Sons would suddenly become the unstoppable juggernauts they're supposed to be.

As for the Movement characteristic (*sigh*) I mean, okay, sure--if you insist. It is *not* such a great mechanic (yaaaay! Everything moves at *slightly* different speeds!), but expect infantry overall to become much, much slower (especially if they reinstate the M4 baseline that was 2nd Edition). I mean, my shooty armies aren't gonna complain much if an Ork Horde is slowed to a piddling 8" a turn with no shooting and Footdar are only going 10"(the old "Run" rules--or "March" if your a WHFB vet), but it's gonna suck for getting your guys into combat.

My prediction, if these prove true, is that Dark Eldar are going to get a lot better. If Splinter Cannons get a -1 save mod? WOW, Venoms. WOW. 

Offline Irisado

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2017, 10:13:50 AM »
I'd be surprised if they were to bring back second edition style armour save modifiers.  I'd imagine that they would opt for an Age of Sigmar style approach to that aspect of the rules, especially since a lot of the rumoured changes seem be derived from a merger of second edition concepts and Age of Sigmar rules mechanics.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2017, 10:39:06 AM »
Besides the AoS thing I think most of these changes are good. As I interpret it unbound will be the norm, then you can take formations to get bonuses, however those formations will look more like the CAD I bet. So fluffy unbound armies gets bonuses. TO's will have some heavy duty to find and restrict extreme builds though, but I think most are up to the task, since they are basically already doing it.

Save modifiers, yes please, I hope they will include coversave modifiers as well, but then again coversaves may become to hit modifiers as they should be.
Granting Sniper weapons BSx2 along with it would be awesome, as they could then start to be present in competitive armies again.

Movement stat should never have been taken away, sure it was not easy to remember the value for every unit, but having all the movement categories is much worse by comparison. Most single faction armies used to have same movement for their infantry and their vehicles across the faction anyway.


Wish rant

As for the changes to CC I like them, however the I value will be even less useful so maybe, just maybe, they could give all units overwatch within Ix2" so any long-charges will not suffer overwatch, while still more risky to miss out on the CC entirely.
In addition all units could have intercept range of Ix2 as well, so those deep strikers with flamers would need to watch out at least a little. Maybe even allow  deepstrike scatter to be 2D6-I.

end of wish rant

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2017, 11:12:10 AM »
I'd be surprised if they were to bring back second edition style armour save modifiers.  I'd imagine that they would opt for an Age of Sigmar style approach to that aspect of the rules, especially since a lot of the rumoured changes seem be derived from a merger of second edition concepts and Age of Sigmar rules mechanics.

Well, yes, but the question is which mechanic will the Armor Mods follow in that merger--2nd Ed or AoS?

Movement stat should never have been taken away, sure it was not easy to remember the value for every unit, but having all the movement categories is much worse by comparison. Most single faction armies used to have same movement for their infantry and their vehicles across the faction anyway.

People keep saying this and I fundamentally don't understand what is wrong with the way it is now. Why can't infantry move about the same speed as other infantry? Why can't bikes move about the same speed as other bikes? Is this *just* because you want specific units to be more special than they currently are? Because I do not see that as being an actual flaw in game design.

Follow-up Question: If you're advocating the return to Move stats, do you then *also* advocate a removal of all the other special movement rules that exist? So, can we then jettison Fleet, Battle Focus, Turboboost, Fast Vehicles, Eldar Jetbike special moves, and all that other junk? 

Offline Irisado

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2017, 11:24:54 AM »
I am sure that they'll follow the Age of Sigmar mechanics.  I cannot see a return to massive save modifiers of the past.

There are no standard movement rates in the current rules.  If you factor in the sheer number of special rules which, to all intents and purposes, increase movement and/or grant bonus movement, standardisation doesn't currently exist.  It can, therefore, be argued that a return to diverse movement rates would be more straightforward, but only if all the special abilities were removed from the rules.  Mixing the two together would, in my opinion, be unnecessary complicated.
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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2017, 11:45:45 AM »
I dunno, if you poke your head out from the Craftworlds and Eldar writ large, the only things that move in a peculiar manner for their type are...

hold on...

ummm....

Ah! Those chicken walkers the Skitarii have.

So, you've got Infantry/Monsters/Artillery, Bikes/Jetbikes, Beasts/Cavalry, Jump Packs, Jetpacks, Vehicles, Flyers, Superheavy Vehicles, Superheavy Walkers, Flying MCs, and Gargantuans.

Granted that's a lot of categories. Also granted there are a few special rules that get involved (who has Move Through Cover, who has to make dangerous terrain tests and when), but I really find this less complicated than every single damned unit having a unique statistic.

That is *unless* the point is to give everybody pretty much the same statistics (M4 for Infantry, M5 for Fast Infantry, M8 for Bikes/Cavalry), but then you're doing the exact same damned thing as we already do anyway.

And I kinda doubt GW is going to remove all those special rules (again, most of which apply to Eldar and their cousins with relatively rare exceptions), since it seems their stated purpose for adding in a Move stat is to "make units more distinct." That means more complication, not less. Another thing to memorize for no particularly good reason or, perhaps, the exact *same* thing to memorize as before, just not listed in any central area.

The Move statistic was dumb. I'm glad it is gone. It was the best change from 2nd to 3rd Ed, it streamlined the game, and made learning to play and playing easier. You want to ice all those special movement rules? Be my guest. But the re-inclusion of the Move characteristic is not (not not not) a move to simply the game. They are planning to do this opposite there, or I will eat my hat.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 11:47:15 AM by Wyddr »

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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2017, 12:04:06 PM »
Think about all the different armies which have access to bikes or Jetbikes, Jump Packs, Jetpacks, and other movement enhancing options.  When applied in this way, I'd argue it's just as complicated, if not more so, to have to keep checking the rules for unit types to see whether they apply to unit x, y, or z in your army.

Here's what they say about movement on the link Killersquid posted:

Quote
Movement

We think the Move value should come back. No more default unit types. Every model should have cool bespoke rules. Not only would that be more fun, but it’ll mean you will only need to learn the rules for your models.

This suggests very strongly that the unit type rules will disappear.  I rarely like to speculate, but given that there is pretty clear evidence here, I feel that it's reasonable speculation in this instance.

I understand the point you make about streamlining, however, I find it easier to remember specific movement values than special rules for a wide variety of unit types.  To me, that is why this is a better approach than the current one, at least in theory.  That said, if GW decides to still add in whole swathes of special rules, making this change isn't going to work very well.
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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2017, 12:29:36 PM »
I would also argue that AoS has no unit types, and each unit has its own rules. That game is super quick and easy to play.

These snippets of changes will make more sense in the whole. As someone who plays the game a lot, I agree the game needs some serious help. The game is way too complex and games take too long to play.
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Re: Adepticon GW session (8th Edition, Death Guard)
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2017, 12:36:04 PM »
I would also argue that AoS has no unit types, and each unit has its own rules. That game is super quick and easy to play.

Yeah, but it has simplified itself down to the bone. I don't want that to happen to 40K, if for no other reason than the variety of unit types is larger.

Quote
These snippets of changes will make more sense in the whole. As someone who plays the game a lot, I agree the game needs some serious help. The game is way too complex and games take too long to play.

Oh yes, the game needs to be streamlined. But not Sigmarized. And I really don't think Move values are going to help much in that regard. At best, it will be a lateral move in terms of complexity.

 


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