Topic: Apatheism

[mrspungebob]

IT definitly matters. Look, its not that i specificly don't want to believe in god. I want to know the truth, and as far as i can tell, christianity is not it. So i want to rule that out of my options of possible truths. But, i want of course christians oppinion on on my arguments against it, because maybe i just got something wrong. Thats why i think it matters very much.

So, i don't believe in neither evil (as a divine thingy), an all-might/knowing god, and a true love and good god. But christians do, and i, as many others, see this as a self-contradiction, whereas we rule christianity out as a possible truth. So it matter because through it, i can rule out christianity (from my point of view).

[Emo robots, psycho ninjas, evil princes, and sadistic babies.]

So, i don't believe in neither evil (as a divine thingy), an all-might/knowing god, and a true love and good god. But christians do, and i, as many others, see this as a self-contradiction, whereas we rule christianity out as a possible truth. So it matter because through it, i can rule out christianity (from my point of view).

So why do you rule out Christianity as a possible truth?

The argument of God being either good or all-powerful or evil being nonexistent doesn't show the inconsistency. I'm not going to bother to explain intrinsic value all over again so just read my post in "Heaven and Hell": http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=112310.msg1315318#new.

Now since God has intrinsic value for humans, he will value the dignity of their choices. Since we chose evil, God won't do anything to dehumanize our choice, even though it grieves him. But for those that choose him, he has a way through Jesus Christ.

[mrspungebob]

So why do you rule out Christianity as a possible truth?

Because, as said, i think the 3 statements about god and evil is contradicting (i also have other reasons as discussed elsewhere, but thats not the point here). So, unless christianity is willing to give up one of the statements, or give me an satisfactory explanation on why it doesn't contradict, i'm going to rule out christianity.

The argument of God being either good or all-powerful or evil being nonexistent doesn't show the inconsistency. I'm not going to bother to explain intrinsic value all over again so just read my post in "Heaven and Hell": http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=112310.msg1315318#new.

Now since God has intrinsic value for humans, he will value the dignity of their choices. Since we chose evil, God won't do anything to dehumanize our choice, even though it grieves him. But for those that choose him, he has a way through Jesus Christ.

Well, that post about intrinsic values in "Heaven and Hell" is from an interview (as far as i could tell from you post) and hence is merely a personal point of view of the person being interviewed. It would be better if you could back up you claim about intrinsic value from the bible, as otherwise i can't see as anything else than a personal oppinion.

[Pilotseer]

I've sort of forgotten what the initial topic were here, and i can't look that far behind when i'm writing this, so i hope i didn't go too much off topic.

The original topic was to discuss Addinarr's personal take on the whole God issue, but as he (she?) hasn't posted since I joined the conversation, does that make it ok that we've wandered way off topic?

The Christian definition of evil is everything that breaks God's moral law. That includes our little white lies. The problem with free will and no evil is that every human being commits some evil (hence Christian dogmas like the need for forgiveness). So you can't get round the problem by just leaving some humans uncreated, as you would then have to leave them all uncreated. But if you modify humans so that they cannot commit evil, then you don't have free will any more.

-Pilotseer

[mrspungebob]

So you don't believe that evil is caused by satan? I thought that was the case.

[Pilotseer]

Free will is not a cause, so much as a facilitator. Satan was able to rebel because he had free will. Similarly mankind is able to rebel because we have free will. Satan eggs us on, but if he actually forced us to commit evil, then we wouldn't have free will anymore (at least, not in that instance). Why they rebelled is attributed to pride (the desire to become like God) but pride is itself evil, and I don't know what caused it.

-Pilotseer

[Full Metal Geneticist]

But an "innocent" creature cannot rebel. Remember man was obedient and happy and all that tree hugging veggie stuff... Then suddenly was egged on by a talking snake who was "Satan" to eat a fruit. Now i don't know about you but egging on three year old children to "run with scissors" or "grab kitty by its tail and see how long you can hold on" is'nt really the childs fault. Despite having "free will" to do as it pleases it cannot tell the true meaning of its actions and is therefore "not evil" no matter the evil it perpetrates (lets say accidentally presses button that kills kitties... the child is not evil... the man encouraging the child is)

So therefore how can you claim the choice of free will if free will is only useful if you have "knowledge"... cause without knowledge free will is just a token gesture. Like saying free petrol for all car users in the roman era. There is no way to utilise free will without the knowledge and self wareness of right and wrong.

[comradeDa]

That, and free will and omniscience are contradictory also. So you can't really choose good if God knows you are going to do evil.

Seems rather unfair. I think many theological problems could be solves by saying God doesn't really love everyone.

[Pilotseer]

I don't see why an innocent creature cannot rebel. God said "Don't eat the fruit", Satan said "Eat the fruit" and man chose to do as Satan suggested, despite the fact that he knew God. If a child chooses to obey a stranger rather than the known and trusted parent this is rebellion.

I do not think that free will and omniscience are contradictory. If I offer my sister chocolate or a carrot, I know that she will choose chocolate, but that doesn't mean that she does not have a free choice in the matter. Omniscience is slightly stronger than my knowledge of that example, but I don't think it contradicts free will.

-Pilotseer

[Seer Fox]

There's a point; whoever said rebelling was a bad thing?

Ciat,
Seer Fox

[mrspungebob]

If I offer my sister chocolate or a carrot, I know that she will choose chocolate, but that doesn't mean that she does not have a free choice in the matter.

Yes, but you don't go punish her for the rest of her life, and all her children etc. because of it.

And since it says in the bible that satan tricked them into eating the fruit, then it wasn't a free-will choice after all. Maybe satan told them that god changed his mind and let them eat from the tree after all, and since Adam and Eva didn't know about the consept of lying, they believed him.

[Pilotseer]

There's a point; whoever said rebelling was a bad thing?

Rebelling against God is a bad thing. He made you and the whole world. He loves you and has only your best interests at heart. To rebel against Him is pride, it is the original sin, and it is evil.

If I offer my sister chocolate or a carrot, I know that she will choose chocolate, but that doesn't mean that she does not have a free choice in the matter.

Yes, but you don't go punish her for the rest of her life, and all her children etc. because of it.

I think you're mixing up the arguments here. I was only trying to show that knowledge of an outcome and free choice are not mutually exclusive. If my sister freely chooses to break the law, I have no problem with her being punished.

-Pilotseer

[mrspungebob]

but for punish to be just, it must be carried out in resonable amount of time. Would you happy with serial-killers and rapist being put in jail 20 years after their crime? Would the learn from it then? No, if I ever did something wrong against god, and he wanted to justfully punish me, he would do it right away, not wait 60 years until i'm dead.

[Emo robots, psycho ninjas, evil princes, and sadistic babies.]

No, if I ever did something wrong against god, and he wanted to justfully punish me, he would do it right away, not wait 60 years until i'm dead.

It's called mercy. Somehow, Jesus always seems to be left out of the picture, but he's the absolute center of the picture here.

In this life, you have the choice to choose Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and if you do, the punishment that was supposed to fall on you fell on Jesus instead, as he died on the cross.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

What Punishment? And What For? Every Christian seems to think that everyone is doing something wrong but they really cannot tell me what the wrong thing is?

[mrspungebob]

It's called mercy.

So, to let a rapist go unpunished for 20 years is mercy? If someone did something wrong to me, i would punish him right away, so he would learn not to do it again!

[Seer Fox]

In this life, you have the choice to choose Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and if you do, the punishment that was supposed to fall on you fell on Jesus instead, as he died on the cross.

Now I wouldn't have a problem with this if Jesus was going to suffer my eternal punishment in hell for me, but as it stands he's sitting pretty in heaven, playing cards with James and John (who always cheat). I mean, he only died ONCE, for everyone's sins for all of eternity. Seems a bit of a lopsided deal here, and a bit too easy. I don't care how much that one death hurt, it's still only one death, limited to a fixed period of time.

Rebelling against God is a bad thing. He made you and the whole world. He loves you and has only your best interests at heart. To rebel against Him is pride, it is the original sin, and it is evil.

And who decided it was evil? He did!

And why? Because it was against his wishes!

Really, the whole point of free will is to go against people's wishes; even God's, when the oppertunity arises.

Rebelling is not soley caused by pride, you know. And pride isn't always a bad thing to have. Hell, I'd rebel too if there was some guy bossing me about all the time and telling me how to live my life. Thankfully for me, I have nothing to rebel against, and nothing to answer for.

Another problem I see will become apparent to me after I ask this question: Does God want us to love him?

Ciat,
Seer Fox

[Pilotseer]

And who decided it was evil? He did!

And why? Because it was against his wishes!

Really, the whole point of free will is to go against people's wishes; even God's, when the oppertunity arises.

Rebelling is not soley caused by pride, you know. And pride isn't always a bad thing to have. Hell, I'd rebel too if there was some guy bossing me about all the time and telling me how to live my life. Thankfully for me, I have nothing to rebel against, and nothing to answer for.

God is good and He loves You. Every command He gives is for your good, and being omnipotent He knows what your good is. When an authority is corrupt and evil, I think it is a good thing to rebel against it, but how exactly can it be a good thing to rebel against moral perfection?
Pride is the desire to make ourselves greater than we rightfully should be. An example of pride is deciding that we know better than God, and that we can therefore define our own morality which would be superior to following His desires.

No, if I ever did something wrong against god, and he wanted to justfully punish me, he would do it right away, not wait 60 years until i'm dead.

"The wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23. If God repaid us as we deserve for every sin the moment we committed it, no-one would live past the age of about five. If He wants to keep the human race about He has to show some forebearance.
Instant and proportional punishment also eventually makes a mockery of free-will. If God toasted all non-Christians the second they denied him how could you say that people really have a free choice as to whether to accept Him? It also leaves no room for later repentance, something which our forgiving God is rather fond of.

-Pilotseer

[mrspungebob]

If God toasted all non-Christians the second they denied him how could you say that people really have a free choice as to whether to accept Him?

But, its not really free will if you don't know the options, now is it? I don't know that god exists, its not that i know he exists but dislike him. If i KNEW he existed, THEN i could make a free will option of worshipping him. That i don't believe he exists is not a choice i made.

[Seer Fox]

God is good and He loves You.

Funny, God never told me that. And he's very vocal most of the time according to the Bible, what with the raining down of fire and vengeance every now and then.

Every command He gives is for your good, and being omnipotent He knows what your good is.

Being omnipotent means he is everything; including totally evil, and thus outside our comprehension. Therefore, there is no way of knowing whether his commandments are good or not, save personal interpretation. Do you support the death penalty? Do you turn the other cheek? Do you love your enemies? Or do you merely pity them? The only text to have come supposedly 'Straight from God' were the 10 Commandments, and even these were, for the most part, common sense rules which people in other civilisations at the time already followed for the most part.

No, I have nothing to answer for. If God doesn't exist, he doesn't exist. If he does, he knows I'm a good person at heart, and that alone is enough to save me. If it isn't, then I don't want to be 'saved' by him/her/it at all.

And still my question goes unanswered: Does God want us to love him?


Ciat,
Seer Fox