40K Online

EldarOnline => Eldar => Topic started by: Swamp Rat on November 16, 2006, 04:59:09 PM

Title: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Swamp Rat on November 16, 2006, 04:59:09 PM
Ok, its becoming quite clear that this unit is the new love for Eldar, at the minute, when more aspects are released, then maybe it'll move on, however, until then, Dire Avengers are reigning supreme.
Now my question is wether to use them as shooting, or combat. Having a 5+invulnerable in combat makes them pretty hardcore, able to take a terminator squad on and at least hold them, maybe the Exarch will pick off the odd one or 2 per turn, but its quite possible that this 150 point unit can hold a 250 unit from marauding through your lines, at the very least. In shooting however, they could have 30 strength 4 shots, and then charge, giving them a total of 30 strength 4, and 22 strength 3 attacks ar a higher/equal initiative than most armies CO.

Now, my question is, seeing as Guardians (for pure numbers) can provide close range fire power (40 shots from a full squad, at equal points cost to a full marine squad with missile launcher, thats twice as many Eldars), Which would be best for 400 points?

as you can see from my other posts, im already experimenting (in theory at least) with a mixture force of Guardians, Storm Guardians, Harlequins, and Dire Avengers, and i'm wondering about peoples experineces with Guardians and Dire Avengers combined.

The idea i had was for Harlequins to pin a unit, then charge with the Dire Avengers/Storm Guardians, and obliterate a unit, however, Dire Avengers are mega awesome at shootin, so i re think that one.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Arun on November 16, 2006, 05:11:22 PM
Ok, its becoming quite clear that this unit is the new love for Eldar, at the minute, when more aspects are released, then maybe it'll move on, however, until then, Dire Avengers are reigning supreme.
Now my question is wether to use them as shooting, or combat. Having a 5+invulnerable in combat makes them pretty hardcore, able to take a terminator squad on and at least hold them, maybe the Exarch will pick off the odd one or 2 per turn, but its quite possible that this 150 point unit can hold a 250 unit from marauding through your lines, at the very least. In shooting however, they could have 30 strength 4 shots, and then charge, giving them a total of 30 strength 4, and 22 strength 3 attacks ar a higher/equal initiative than most armies CO.

Now, my question is, seeing as Guardians (for pure numbers) can provide close range fire power (40 shots from a full squad, at equal points cost to a full marine squad with missile launcher, thats twice as many Eldars), Which would be best for 400 points?

as you can see from my other posts, im already experimenting (in theory at least) with a mixture force of Guardians, Storm Guardians, Harlequins, and Dire Avengers, and i'm wondering about peoples experineces with Guardians and Dire Avengers combined.

The idea i had was for Harlequins to pin a unit, then charge with the Dire Avengers/Storm Guardians, and obliterate a unit, however, Dire Avengers are mega awesome at shootin, so i re think that one.

Any thoughts?

Pinning a unit and then charging it is useless. Pining a unit is only useful if said unit is very dangerous due to shooty reasons and has to be kept 'at bay' because of dangerous CC abilities as well etc...

Use DAs only against Hordes. In other cases, Pathfinders and 10 Guardians with 1 Starcannon do the job for you.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Swamp Rat on November 16, 2006, 05:24:40 PM
Whoops, mistake on my part, i meant pin them in combat with the Harlequinns, then hit them with the back up unit.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Redlion on November 16, 2006, 06:20:21 PM
Well Swamprat, one thing I can tell you about is guardian. Unfortunately, I never used dire avengers, and I want to add them to my army now.

I see uses for them in conjunction with my guardian as well. People under estimate what 30 + strength 4  shots can do. Even to termies. Thats not their real strength obviously though. Against numerous units, IE nids, orks or crons though. Even marines. 30 strength 4 shots is going to do serious damage to them. combine fire a unit of 10 guardian with a weap platform and those da's. Woe to the unit that receives that hail of bladed death. What 50 strength 4 shots, coupled with whatever your platform does as well. Not counting doom, nor guide thrown in for good measure. If it doesn't destroy a 5 man termie unit, which is how most people run them, it is going to cripple it so bad a simple charge of your guardians will probably wipe it out, or your avengers as well.


Man, I have been thinking of a pure dire avenger, guardian army. Imagine at how many troops you can have. Add a unit of dragons, and banshees as well. Man, its got serious possibilities. Thats not counting all our other good stuff we have to compliment this as well. My mind is overloaded, with them.

Anyway. I wish I owned some dire avengers now is all I can say.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Swamp Rat on November 16, 2006, 06:27:17 PM
Redlion, tell me about it, im gettin some on Saturday, been waitin all week for it ;D

I'd use Harlequins as well as Banshees, and i've had the same thoughts as you on the pure Dire Avengers/Guardians front. Only difference to yours is i'd have Scorpions or Banshees, depending on opponent. Oh, and then theres Spiders, and a unit of Spears, and reapers, jesus, thers just so much...
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Spider-King on November 16, 2006, 06:41:55 PM
Well two units i thought were crap before cos of their points cost is the reason id didnt use them. Now with the new dex im basing an entire army around them.

Sweet sweet guardian jetbikes and shiny spears  :D :'(
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Redlion on November 16, 2006, 07:43:09 PM
When I 1st got my jetbikes in way back in 2nd, I thought, these things are never going to survive. Boy was I ever wrong, and true there have been battles they didn't make the whole game, but man did I under estimate them is all I can say.

Even though in 3rd very few people used them, I still used mine. They were great, I agree they were overpriced, but man they helped me many a battle.

Weakening some pretty tough units, so my other units had a much easier time with them. Hauling buggy and strafing a dev unit on a flank, or going to get that whirlwind, and shooting it in the butt, and blowing it sky high.

They paid for themselves, many times over. Hauling butt in the last turn of a game to contest, or claim a table quarter. I've even killed special characters with them. If they were alone, and in back of other units, my jet bikes could easily get to them, and 6 strength 6 shots, and 8 strength 4 shots, that rerolled misses, usually killed their character, or seriously hurt them bad.

I loved my jetbikes man. Even in 3rd.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Andaah on November 17, 2006, 05:29:45 AM
In my last battle I had 2 units in Serpents with Bladestorm.

A Chaplain and full Assault Squad was charging my lines. I was scared.

So I doomed them, unloaded my 2 units and let loose. They all died.

In my list I will use 2 of them to work in pairs (or alone in the case of Tau or Hordes) and decimate an enemy squad that needs to die.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Spider-King on November 17, 2006, 05:34:14 AM
Spoken like a true autarch Andaah!  :D
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Andaah on November 17, 2006, 05:45:52 AM
Hehe. I hope I am gaining back a bit more of my Eldar-ness since saying that I sacrifice guardian jetbikes for the greater good.

I really like Dire Avengers for more than their ability to dish out ridiculous amounts of fire. I like that when I use them they are a risk to me. If they don't destroy their target and get charged they are in trouble. I like this. Using them is a risk and so when it pays off it is all the more satisfying!

One tactic which works with Fire Dragons and Avengers (when mechanised) is to have a shining spears unit or some other fast combat unit. The Avengers/Dragons unload, fire and are vulnerable to shooting/assault. I like to charge with my fast squad to create a LOS-blocking combat which shields them from shooting!
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: King of Hearts;Servant of the Queen on November 17, 2006, 09:50:07 AM
Hey guys...I just thought of some thign.......

Get a squad or 2 of harlequins and line them in a row with the VoT and line them infront of your 4-6 squads of DA or Guardians and then if you go against an assutlly army like Orks, They really dont shoot much sooo then your harles are safe then they assult the harlequins.......ha rles kill a few then the hit and run 3D6 BEHIND the DA or guardians then move forward and Blade the open orks then assult with halres IF theirs any left.....Lol seems kind of complex but im going to try it!

That means 120-180 Str 4 shots AND HAlresquins 40-80 rending........Oh God.....Im scared......Lol
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Algavinn of the Many Paths on April 25, 2007, 06:41:06 PM
The below is the Dire Avenger entry for the Biel-Tan in 4th Edition Project.  I thought it might be useful.  It may be skewed towards Biel-Tan, so that that into consideration.  I am adding additional information to this post, despite its date of last post, because it is now stickied.




Dire Avengers:
Well here we are, the first troops choice.  I will speak more in detail later about the troop choices as a system, so will try to give no more than a passing mention of that here.  As with all of the aspects, the Dire Avengers were refined or enhanced towards their role.  They are no longer just glorified guardians, but masters of the shuriken.  The previous role of the Dire Avengers was to take down light infantry and horde units primarily (as simple as ten Guardsmen, or as prolific as 20 Shoota Boys or Genestealers) and to tie up enemy squads in close combat until something tougher arrived.  The role has not deteriorated.  With the new exarch abilities and equipment, as well as possibly help from Doom, this squad has the capacity to cause some hurt to tougher targets such as Tyranid Warriors, or even monstrous creatures.  Also it is no longer just the Exarch that has defensive qualities.  There aren’t any direct changes to their points or stat-line but the new equipment and exarch abilities make the squad. 

Shooting/CC mix:
By themselves the Dire-Avengers are still a cheap and effective unit for taking down light infantry.  Against units like IG squads, their better saves and WS will tend to allow them to take down equal sizes of guard in the end, or when shooting then assaulting capable of wiping smaller squads and consolidating into others without much difficulty.  Against tougher opponents such as Tyranids/Orcs you will need a numerical advantage to execute this kind of attack.  This is where the exarch comes in.

With bladestorm a squad is able to boost their firepower for a turn and quickly reduce the numbers of the opposing squad, making it much more likely to gain numerical superiority for finishing a squad/gaining safety in CC.  The exarch’s double shuriken catapults also help, giving the squad 5 BS5 shots which if against light infantry, especially if not in cover, will claim a lot of lives.  The typical offensive exarch is bladestorm+double shuriken catapults.  Whether going for wiping out a dangerous squad on the go (HQ squads, CC squads, or even looking to hurt an MC), or weakening a tough squad before initiating other roles, as discussed below. 

With the increased range of the shuriken catapult and these new and powerful exarch abilities/options the Dire Avengers have increased their capabilities in defending objectives, wiping out both the mundane light infantry, and tougher/larger squads of light infantry.  They also have capabilities for putting so many shots on tougher targets such as meq/MC’s to cause realistic damage (not wiping, but causing meaningful wounds that with combined fire could take it down).  A few months ago my Dire Avengers bladestormed a hive tyrant, causing 2 wounds, and on the charge between them and the farseer, they killed it.

CC lock:
Here the Dire Avengers gained a big boost.  It does still require the exarch to reap these bonus utilities, but they are much stronger than the third edition abilities.  This role of the Dire Avengers is constituted by the Avengers locking opponents in CC, either to strangle them to death, slowly cause deaths and try to force sweeping advances, or to hold the enemy unit until tougher support arrives.  This is one of the main roles I will speak about in the article section of coping with the troop changes. 

Defend is the most massive ability, making it so that they can charge CC intensive units, take away charging bonuses on those intending on joining its combat, or nerfing characters in CC.  This greatly slows down incoming damage to them, sometimes making it as if they were fighting half as many foe’s.  The Shimmershield may seem like a rarely used item, but it depends on the role in which you use your Dire Avengers.  If you are fighting enemies with power weapons, MC’s, rending, etc, and wish to use your Dire Avengers in this locking role, it can be quite useful, but it is definitely not a “don’t leave home without it” piece of equipment, but can be essential if you have that specific role in mind.

The CC lock role of the Dire Avengers is one of the most useful roles for the Dire Avengers, and is one of the most crucial it will have.  It has become infinitely better at it than in the 4th edition.  Some people elect to take shooty Dire Avengers, or locking Dire Avengers, and some that take multi-role Dire Avengers.  This is where most of the arguments come from when people say, “is this item worth it?”  As always in 40k, and the Eldar in particular, rarely are there bad items, merely good or bad roles and situations for them.  I would say that the Dire Sword is no better than it used to be, its only benefit is the extra attack from 2 CC weapons, but the double shuriken catapults are cheaper and will likely cause more wounds than the extra attack in CC.  The power weapon may be better for against MEQ targets, but otherwise double cats seems to be the best in any exarch situation.



Overall the Dire Avengers have increased their ranged capabilities immensely against tougher or larger light infantry targets, and because of this increase have gained tougher targets such as smaller meq squads (or larger with combined support), MC’s, rear/light vehicles, etc.  One could say there was a locking role before 4th edition, but it has become so infinitely more practical that there is a definite and necessary role in the Biel-Tan army for it.  More on this later in the article.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: stezerok on April 25, 2007, 09:15:25 PM
Redlion, tell me about it, im gettin some on Saturday, been waitin all week for it ;D

ah! things are great when taken out of context!  ;)

but seriously, DA' are a really fantastic unit. I think that personally, their cc abilities are all gimiks. I find the inv, to be kind of lame, and really situational, and the Dire Sword, to be a crap copy of a force weapon (seriously enemy Ld averages at 9, and sometimes at 10, what makes them think that a sword that forces a Ld test is honestly going to do anything?) So aside from defend, a full shooty unit with Bladestorm, kicks major butt. And with the range of the gun, its rate of fire, combined with the high Ld, and I of Eldar, I'd say DA's are quite possibly the best basic infantry in the game.

As for the original question, I'd say it really depends. Personally I've tried (and to good success) to "thicken" the DA's fire with a small squad of Guardians, and it definitely works. If you really want to use your guardians in this way; as support up close, then arm them up with a shuriken cannon, and you have a neat pair. If you dont want them that close to the enemy then holding them back with an EML handy to cover your DA's from afar, is always a good plan. It really depends on your tactics, but Guardians definitely do work well as support, so I'd say you're on the right track...
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: ranger_55 on April 26, 2007, 01:57:01 AM
Dire avengers are best as a shootign unit I think. I field 2 units of 10 with Exarch with bladestorm and dual catapults.

They are priceless just for the look on you opponents face when they see the ammount of dice you are throwing as you bladestorm with them.. ;)

As other people have suggested makeing them a combat unit is just about the worst thing you can do...defend is...ok but the minimum of 1 attacks means its onyl useful against squads with more than one attack and the shimmershield is not a CC weapon so thats one less attack than diresword/pistol combo plus you cant shoot with the exarch the inv sav is onyl in close combat...so again you have a shooting unit with upgrades for close combat. If you want a close combat unit for troops take 20 storm guardians they are just about as good as dire avengers in combat. otherwise there are plenty of REAL close combat troops available to the eldar.   Diresword / pistol is not a bad combo since you still get 2 shots from the exarch when you bladestorm then  you can charge in with 4 power weapon attacks (forget the dire part its useless, just remember its a power weapon part) so if you are that close thats a nice way to get a ton of attacks on an enemy squad.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Hypopheralcus on April 26, 2007, 08:49:19 AM
Depending on the opponent shimmerhield + defend can be really a nasty combo. Those genestealers will think twice before charging into such a unit, as their rending will effectively be reduced by 66,66%
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Sapphon on April 26, 2007, 09:13:14 AM
I feel as if I've just seen a ghost.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: milhouse123 on April 26, 2007, 09:20:45 AM
Hello

I am new to eldar and have some dire avengers, I also have Asureman as well.

I have been play testing my eldar and found that when he is a unit of dire avengers they are nigh near unstoppble, because you have the combat potential and shooting power. I was able to plough through a unit of beserkers, bikes and blood letters as well with this one 7 man unit.
 this was all done in assualts although i did lose that game, but there was only 1 wound in it on either side.

Dire avengers in my opinion are a very nice unit and every army should have at least 1 6 man unit, and if you have the points take the phonix lord as well.

Defend +shimmer shiled is well worth takeing as well as blade storm, an all round versatile unit

Milhouse.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: ranger_55 on April 26, 2007, 03:15:26 PM
With the addition of a powerful character like the phoenix lord I could see the dire avengers as becoming much mor versatile the invulnerable save would help against power weapons/fists too. I personally find those situations rare however which is probably why I favor the shooting upgrades over the close combat ones.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: milhouse123 on April 27, 2007, 04:27:32 AM
Going back to the harlequinn Avenger tactic, you dont actually need to get behind the avengers in fact you just need to break combat and move the harley in to a posistion where they could assault that enemy again, or a new one assuming the avengers don't manage to mop the rest of them up.

Or if they are that slose to the enemy even assautl with the avenegers


Milhouse.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Defenestratus on April 27, 2007, 10:47:12 AM
I'm honestly quite baffled by the people that say that the shimmershield/pw combo is useless.

I can't tell you how many 5 man terminator squads have met their end at the hands of a DA squad that shot it first, then charged it in CC.

That power weapon is quite possibly the most underrated piece of kit in the codex.

Its another one of those "doesn't look good on paper but in practice its pretty useful" items.  In my experience anyways.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on April 27, 2007, 11:46:07 AM
I almost always use the diresword and pistol combo.  Mostly because I still only have the third edition exarch.  However, I like it because it works well with either defend or bladestorm.  The extra attack it nice as well.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: srintuar on April 27, 2007, 12:14:14 PM
I'm honestly quite baffled by the people that say that the shimmershield/pw combo is useless.

I can't tell you how many 5 man terminator squads have met their end at the hands of a DA squad that shot it first, then charged it in CC.

That power weapon is quite possibly the most underrated piece of kit in the codex.

Its another one of those "doesn't look good on paper but in practice its pretty useful" items.  In my experience anyways.

Well, if the shimmer shield worked against shooting, or was at least a 4+ invulnerable, i would definitely consider it effective.
But a 5+ invulnerable save on a T3 model is not really that impressive. Plus, the shimmer shield costs the exarch one attack in assault, meaning the S3 power weapon is going to hit less.

I don't think it adds enough to be worthwhile, especially compared to the price of a spare shurikat, and the number of shots its liable to put out over the course of a game. 4 BS5 shots at STR4 is pretty good for its price (1.1 dead marines, 0.27 dead termies). 2 WS5 power attacks at STR3  is not so impressive considering the cost(0.44 dead marines, 0.29 deat termies). A bladestorm+charge tilts the balance even more, with the shurikats outperforming vs all enemies.

So I'd only take the shimmer shield for style and fun, myself. (or if i planned to fortune them for tar-baby usage)





Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on April 27, 2007, 02:01:19 PM
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: srintuar on April 27, 2007, 03:30:33 PM
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.

Warlocks have 4+ saves.

Sure, 5+ is better than nothing. But whether or not its worth getting depends on how much it costs.
If its going to cost me 4 bs 5 shuriken shots, and a ton of points in addition, maybe ill choose to pass.

Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Lascidel on April 27, 2007, 05:15:11 PM
I haven't tried the CC dimension yet, but I've had great success in groups of 10 footsloggers with an exarch with Dual cats. What a fantastic unit. A pair of them working in tandem is wonderful, and they are usually accompanied by Eldrad. With Doom, that's a lot of dying, and all 3 units are at their best when they are in that 13-18" sweet spot. Hovering at that range, unloading (Guided?) Doomed shuricats, Mindwars, and/or Eld Storms is a wonderful thing.

I love that extra range on the shuricat. It means staying out of assault range against most units, and as for those jumpackers, well, just need to bring down the rest of the list's firepower on them.

I've focused mostly on staying out of assault, and as such, Bladestorm has not been needed, but I could see its effectiveness.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: ranger_55 on April 27, 2007, 06:48:19 PM
Quote
Well, if the shimmer shield worked against shooting, or was at least a 4+ invulnerable, i would definitely consider it effective.

I agree if the shield worked against shooting attacks it would be a much better item.

Quote
That power weapon is quite possibly the most underrated piece of kit in the codex.

power weapons are great, having said that power weapons that come with a pistol to get and extra attack are even better...thus I feel the dire sword/pistol combo being better.

Quote
I almost always use the diresword and pistol combo.  Mostly because I still only have the third edition exarch.  However, I like it because it works well with either defend or bladestorm.  The extra attack it nice as well.

Well said. I must say that as far as the model goes the dire sword / pistol combo looks very cool.

There seem to be a lot of people that love to charge dire avengers into terminators and other nasty close combat troops....I am beginning to wonder why they are not using normal close combat units against them...
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on April 28, 2007, 02:49:46 AM
Warlocks have 4+ saves.

Sure, 5+ is better than nothing. But whether or not its worth getting depends on how much it costs.
If its going to cost me 4 bs 5 shuriken shots, and a ton of points in addition, maybe ill choose to pass.
We pay enough for that 4+ invulnerable save for a model with a weak toughness, and average skills.

Conceal gives a circumstantial save that doesn't work in melee or against template weapons.
Shimmershield gives a circumstantial save that does work in melee, and dire avengers already have a save against most template weapons.  Plus a power weapon for the same price.

I think it is pretty good deal.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Lofton on September 3, 2007, 02:41:20 PM
OK I will be facing necrons and prob some space marines for sure. Can DAs do a number on necrons as well? im looking at about 20 DAs and my opponent has 29 warriors/necrons and rest bike sqaud ones with a lord.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: robdark22 on September 4, 2007, 12:22:51 AM
the only thing i keep seeing as a problem is that anyone who uses a prue da troop choice army is going to have problem because you only have 18 inchs that one thing i keep see as a problem. to answer the question is that if you have bike with you use them to cover your dire avnger so that you wont be over exposed to the fire of the bike his army by  couter his range and speed with yours. i say this because i did run dire avnger  until i discovered that everyone figure out how beat them un in the terrain set up and that was the biggest weakness i finding out now when i praticeing with them again. i would also say that have 2 squads is good in low point games but in high point game around 1250 to 1500 bike would also be a  good buy also...
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: echo34 on September 4, 2007, 12:37:25 AM
First off, I think this thread is a little old and you may want to not post in something this dead.

However, in response to their effectiveness versus necrons. Someone had done the math on another forum and if I remember correctly, it comes out to roughly 3-4 necrons dead when being shot by a full DA squad including exarch,b ladestorm and dual shuriken catapults with that unit being doomed as well, then about 1-2 after the WBB roll the necrons get.

Therefore, the DAs are not as effective against the necrons as one would hope for.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Algavinn of the Many Paths on September 5, 2007, 02:24:22 AM
This topic is stickied within the FAQ so post post post away, as is the purpose of a FAQ is to keep new articles from popping up to host peoples opinions and questions.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Mordekiem on September 5, 2007, 09:05:48 PM
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.
Templar assault squads can all have storm shields.  And I beleive some of the new BA units can get Storm shields as well.  Assault terminators can also get all storm shields.  I believe Sisters can also make there 3+ save an invulnerable one as well.  Then of course you have turbo-boosting bikes on top of that.

Quote
However, in response to their effectiveness versus necrons. Someone had done the math on another forum and if I remember correctly, it comes out to roughly 3-4 necrons dead when being shot by a full DA squad including exarch,b ladestorm and dual shuriken catapults with that unit being doomed as well, then about 1-2 after the WBB roll the necrons get.
this is pretty close.  A doomed unit fo necrons will probably lose about 4-5 members to BSing avengers.  Then between the WBB roll and a teleporting monolith they will get 75% of them back.  So you will be lucky if 2 necrons stay down.  Now if you could combine that with a second squad and some other shooting then you may be able to knock out a whole squad.  of course you also have to isolate a squad from the rest of the army.  If you have some tanks you can tank shock them to put some space between them. :)
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: moc065 on September 6, 2007, 10:35:22 AM
I'm honestly quite baffled by the people that say that the shimmershield/pw combo is useless.

I can't tell you how many 5 man terminator squads have met their end at the hands of a DA squad that shot it first, then charged it in CC.

That power weapon is quite possibly the most underrated piece of kit in the codex.

Its another one of those "doesn't look good on paper but in practice its pretty useful" items.  In my experience anyways.

OK, I played a pick-up game with 4 players in it and I have to tell you about this crazy experience with DA..

My counterpart had 1000pts of Blood Angels and I had 500pts of Eldar against 1500pts of Tyranids (one FOC per side). My part happened to consist of 8 DA: Exarch with p-weapon % shimmershield and Bladestorm. After some mediocre movement on my turn 1 and our opponets turn 2 advance my poor little Dire Avengers where staring a big crazy-eyed Winged Hive Tyrant in the face. Anyway, I figured they were going to die soon enough so I decided to see what would happen and Bladestormed into the Hive Tyrant: well the 20+ shots actually bagged me 2 wounds on Hive Tyrant, and then when I assaulted him I gave him 1 more wound. Yes I lost 2 DA; but I thought the squad was doing pretty well. On turn 3 (His CC phase) I did loose 2 more DA; but, with their pure Eldar scalple like finesse - I dropped the Hive Tyrant (thanks to the Power-Weapon). Now it didn't matter that a squad killed soem Genestealers on my next turn before it was devoured on his turn, the Dire Avengers easily paid for themselves with the Hive Tyrant (not even accountinf for what that thing could have done to those small Blood Angel Squads behind them) and the look on my opponent's faces when their "Big Crazy-eyed" tyrant died was priceless. PS, the Guardian with Scatterlaser Platform and the Harlequin squad also did very well through the game and we gained a Victorious Slaughter in the end....

My 2 cents = Dire Avengers and Guardians should not be discounted in the Eldar host, they do certain things well, and their ability to continually perform well regarless of enemy is one of those things that just doesn't look good on paper; but works, none the less.

Cheers and Happy Gaming. 
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: robdark22 on September 6, 2007, 12:04:54 PM
nothing better said then the look of a 152 unit kill 2x or 3x the point before it die in the game..
see that look make me happy seeing that they never really understood when eldar have the to much fire power in the turn you need it  to take the game. i could rember when i was playing aganist tynarid and shot  the wholely crap out of his small stuff leaving the mc left then killing them the next turn it was fun ti see..
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on September 6, 2007, 01:19:52 PM
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.
Templar assault squads can all have storm shields.  And I beleive some of the new BA units can get Storm shields as well.  Assault terminators can also get all storm shields.  I believe Sisters can also make there 3+ save an invulnerable one as well.  Then of course you have turbo-boosting bikes on top of that.

How much do you pay for those storm shields?  I bet it is much more than what dire avengers pay.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: myles on September 6, 2007, 01:25:56 PM
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.
Templar assault squads can all have storm shields.  And I beleive some of the new BA units can get Storm shields as well.  Assault terminators can also get all storm shields.  I believe Sisters can also make there 3+ save an invulnerable one as well.  Then of course you have turbo-boosting bikes on top of that.

Not to mention that if you are to take storm shields for an assault based squad (which is the only type of squad that can have them for everyone) you are shooting yourself in the foot, because you're dropping the close combat ability of that squad.

Also, turbo-boosting a bike does nothing for it in CC, and the battle sisters thing is not only something that can be done a limited number of times, but also something that is not entirely reliable. So yeah, I'd say that a 5++ for the whole squad is rather good indeed, especially when they're pretty much basic troop models, as opposed to super elite models like terminators.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: moc065 on September 6, 2007, 03:07:27 PM

     The great thing about the DA having 5++ is that the base cost of the models is relatively cheap, and adding the Exarch with Shimmershield & p-weapon and Bladestorm only adds additional 42pts to the entire squad... Which brings the cost per figure up to about 16pts each (10 man squad with Exarch, pw & ss and Bladestorm = 162pts). Not to bad for a squad that has average stats or better across the board, can fleet of foot, increase their rate of fire and then assault an enemy when the opportunity arrises, not to mention that the models actually look decent as well.

    Anyway, I like DA and Guardians and think that both units work very well on their own, and only get better when you start to combine their attributes with some ofhte other awesome choices in the Eldar host (Wave Serpent anyone ?).

Cheers and Happy Gaming.
     
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Mordekiem on September 8, 2007, 04:56:36 AM
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.
Templar assault squads can all have storm shields.  And I beleive some of the new BA units can get Storm shields as well.  Assault terminators can also get all storm shields.  I believe Sisters can also make there 3+ save an invulnerable one as well.  Then of course you have turbo-boosting bikes on top of that.

Not to mention that if you are to take storm shields for an assault based squad (which is the only type of squad that can have them for everyone) you are shooting yourself in the foot, because you're dropping the close combat ability of that squad.

Also, turbo-boosting a bike does nothing for it in CC, and the battle sisters thing is not only something that can be done a limited number of times, but also something that is not entirely reliable. So yeah, I'd say that a 5++ for the whole squad is rather good indeed, especially when they're pretty much basic troop models, as opposed to super elite models like terminators.
Hey, I am not saying anything is good or bad.  I am just saying that there are other non-IC, non-MC units that have invulns under 5++.

Just for the record though.  Templar assault squads can get the shields for 3 points each and they are a very viable option that changes there close combat ability and let's them take on different roles.  If you want to talk about them more just hop over to the SM section.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: TheEldarGuy on September 11, 2007, 05:37:01 AM
In a very recent game vs some Chaos derivative that had plague Marines and a special rule that removed models...

I used a single squad of DA (elegantly deployed from a Serpent) unloaded with 30+ shots into a big Ogre type thing and removed it. Next round, they got back in and zoomed away.

We were playing a 1,000 point game and I reckon that guy had to be nearly half the points.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: tegeus-Cromis on September 11, 2007, 05:40:12 AM
Are you sure about this? I can't think of a single "big Ogre type thing" in the Chaos list that costs 500 points, yet could be killed in a single Bladestorm. More info, please.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: TheEldarGuy on September 11, 2007, 09:47:13 AM
Are you sure about this? I can't think of a single "big Ogre type thing" in the Chaos list that costs 500 points, yet could be killed in a single Bladestorm. More info, please.

I think they were plague bearers or some such (I'm not a Chaos junkie, so I am unsure exactly what they were)... Nergle or Nargle? (or similar).

It was a cities of death game and I had my Wraithguard show up from the sewers.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: tegeus-Cromis on September 11, 2007, 11:49:35 AM
You mean you were shooting at a unit? You said you shot at a "big Ogre type thing" earlier.

Anyway, there is no way a unit of Plaguebearers is going to cost 500 points. Nowhere near it.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: moc065 on September 11, 2007, 01:59:57 PM
I don't know all the Chaos crap thats out there; but I can tell you about a few units/models that have some serious point values and crumble well to Dire Avengers that are worth a lot less.

Ex:
5 Termies (250ish), vs 10 DA, exarch with Bladestorm, pw & ss (157)
27 shots * 2/3 hits * 1/2 wounds * 1/6 kills = 1.5 Dead,
assault for 21 attacks * 1/2 Hits * 1/3 wounds * 1/6 kills = 0.58 more dead,,,
for a total of 2.25 removed Termies (without DOOM), adding in DOOM will make the result closer to 4 removed.

The key with DA (as with all other Eldar units) is to use their strengths and avoid their weeknesses. Don't send DA in to fight against enemy CC specialists, and don't leave them to get shot in the open.... Don't shoot things that can be shot by lesser units with the same effect, don't Bladestorm if it leaves you stranded, etc, etc,.... you get the picture..... Figure out what the DA are good at and then use them for that, regardless of enemy. Oh, and I think that their bet attribute is that they can shoot pretty near anything and do well, they are not as good at HtH, so this is where they need to be supported. Here is an Example.... Some-one noted that they can drop about 3-4 Necrons with their shooting (so add DOOM to enhance this, then have a squad of Harlequins (or other CC unit) run over that same unit of Necrons; if you drop the whole unit, there will be less of them left to threaten your DA later. Oh and hte same could be done with multiple DA squads: two squads of DA both in Serpents can easily drop in and waste 10 Necron Warriors (with the Serpents shooting some weapons to assist), that means that there maybe 5 necrons after WBB rolls (if they are not outside of the WBB roll distance from another simular unit). You need to consider the entire amries synergy wehn you discuss Eldar tactics, as the Eldar do not work nearly as well as individual units as they do within combined efforts.

CaHG

EDITED 13 Sep 2007: I adjusted the math for 27 shots with Bladestorm,,,, wow what a difference (0.17 less kills overall), WoW there will still be about 2.25 Termies removed (or closer to 4 dead if you happen to have DOOM'ed them as well). Thanks for the correction though; even if its only an average since the dice are never exactly the same as the Real World Math.

CaHG
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on September 11, 2007, 05:02:06 PM
9 avenger plus an exarch with the shimmershield will only have 27 shots when using bladestorm.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Mordekiem on September 11, 2007, 10:02:23 PM
Are you sure about this? I can't think of a single "big Ogre type thing" in the Chaos list that costs 500 points, yet could be killed in a single Bladestorm. More info, please.

I think they were plague bearers or some such (I'm not a Chaos junkie, so I am unsure exactly what they were)... Nergle or Nargle? (or similar).

It was a cities of death game and I had my Wraithguard show up from the sewers.
I'm guessing it was the nurgle deamon prince.  And while they can be worth alot of points I doubt they were worth 500.

Check this out this link.  Looks kinda ogre-ish to me.
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=303028&orignav=300901&ParentID=258396&GameNav=10
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Corax_rg on August 16, 2008, 06:00:41 PM
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.

Not entirely true. Thousand sons have a 4++.
Title: Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
Post by: Rasmus on August 17, 2008, 05:17:50 AM
Wow, we like the sort of hapless disregard for the rules where you dig up a thread nearly one year and over an edition of the rules ago and provide a oneliner to it. Well done.
Or not

*click!*