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Author Topic: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500  (Read 1630 times)

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Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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[DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« on: February 18, 2012, 10:33:09 AM »
Ok finally starting to finish painting my post update Deathwing with 3++ storm shields. But i'm having issues with completing the list. I should state that as i believe DW is less competitive than some of the more recent codexs, i am trying to make it as strong as possible.

My issue is Vindicators vs Venerable Dreadnoughts i just can't make my mind up

The list as stands is

HQ

Belial - Twin Lightning Claws

Troops

Deathwing Terminator Squad

Stand Bearer - Lightning Claws
Apocthecary - Lightning Claws
Terminator - Lightning Claws
Terminator - Thunder Hammer/ Storm Shield - Cyclone Missile Launcher 
Terminator - Thunder Hammer/ Storm Shield


Deathwing Terminator Squad

Terminator Sgt - Power Weapon Storm Bolter
Terminator - Chain Fist Storm Bolter
Terminator - Power Fist Assault Cannon
Terminator - Thunder Hammer/ Storm Shield
Terminator - Thunder Hammer/ Storm Shield


Deathwing Terminator Squad

Terminator Sgt - Power Weapon Storm Bolter
Terminator - Power Fist Storm Bolter
Terminator - Chain Fist Storm Bolter
Terminator - Thunder Hammer/ Storm Shield - Cyclone Missile Launcher   
Terminator - Thunder Hammer/ Storm Shield

Edit***

Also

Heavy Support

Land Raider Crusader

Extra armor & Multi Melta

Edit****

To this i have been looking at adding

either
Two Vindicators and a Land Speeder Typhoon w/ Multi Melta.

-or-

2 Venerable Dreadnoughts with extra amour, probably mixed Assault cannon, Plasma Cannon or TW-LC - and possibly some tinkering of removing the chain fists to get in the TW-LC 

Suggestions with explanations welcome .
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 05:50:29 PM by Brother Galis »

Offline Sheepz

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 12:39:03 PM »
I would go for the Vindicators. I cannot imagine the Dreadnoughts adding a huge amount of firepower to the army, and even as Venerable they're still not unstoppable but they certainly cost a fair bit. Their combat potential isn't as fantastic in light of the huge amounts of Terminators you've got.

The Vindicators have S10 templates and are much cheaper than a DA Ven Dread. They'll probably draw more fire than the Dreads, and their range suits them to a close assault role, while the Dreads might feel a bit more stand-offish because of their additional range on the Plasma Cannon and LCs - and yes, I know they can move up and fire.

The Landspeeder can only help in objective games as a fast objective contester, as well as putting out a fairly excessive amount of firepower for their points.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 03:40:35 PM »
I agree with Sheepz.  Dreadnoughts in a Dark Angel list are hard to stomach with their point cost and how that extra jump in comparison to C:SM effects your list.  Adding more points to the total does not help their case.

Vindicators are a tough, viable threat that provide the distraction and fire support that deathwing needs to be successful.
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Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 06:36:52 PM »

Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2012, 03:50:38 AM »
Also, any advantage of taking 1 of each excluding the Land Speeder?

Offline KJQ

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2012, 09:17:49 AM »
Question, If i wanted to use this

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180096_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Land_Raider_Ares.pdf

would i need my opponents permission?

In tournament play, it is up to the organizer to decide what non-codex rules/units are allowed (if any).

In friendly games, the consensus is that you should ask your opponent's permission to use any non-codex rules unit, which means most Forgeworld models (but not all as some models/options are in the codex, just not available from Games Workshop - e.g. dreadnought autocannon arms).  This is just good manners anyway as no one likes to be surprised by some game changing unit/rule being sprung on them during play. If you don't ask, you risk them walking away from the game, and possibly 'dissing you to others in the club.  In practice, asking permission is not a big deal. I've never been told no yet, but have lists with only codex units ready just in case (e.g. I like to play Caestus Assault Ram, Land Raider Achilles, and Lucius Drop Pods).  I doubt either of you would have much fun if your opponent was 'forced' to let you play with non-codex units.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 12:09:01 PM by KJQ »
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2012, 11:38:20 AM »
Also, any advantage of taking 1 of each excluding the Land Speeder?

No.  I have found to make armour effective in any manner (especially vindicators and dreadnoughts), repetition is your friend.  Having a pair is always more effective than running one.  Also, if two dreadnoughts are not effective, one is even worse.
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Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 04:33:44 PM »
Also, any advantage of taking 1 of each excluding the Land Speeder?

No.  I have found to make armour effective in any manner (especially vindicators and dreadnoughts), repetition is your friend.  Having a pair is always more effective than running one.  Also, if two dreadnoughts are not effective, one is even worse.

'Nuff said i think :)

Offline HORDE

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 06:14:33 AM »
I like the set up of your terminator squads, bar one or 2 changes - your sargeants should have something other than a power weapon. anything other than a power weapon. it's the worst choice for them, seriously. and i'd have 1 more THSS in your command squad, preferably on the apothecary.

There's 2 ways I've seen effective deathwing run. The first is Land Raiders. Mount up, beat face. 3 raiders, 3 squads and belial is around 1750 points with upgrades thrown in. this probably requires more lightning claws than you have, though. 1 land raider is a liability in any list because it seals target priority for your opponent. 2 is more desirable, and by then you're commited so you might as well have 3.

The other way is the way I run it, and i'll explain forthwith;
The question is, what are deathwing good at? well, they have some mobile anti light vehicle and anti infantry firepower (cyclones), they are a decent combat unit, graduating to good the more THSS you add. they are fairly survivable, moreso with THSS. the need for chainfists is evident - dreadnought insurance (especially with the amount of av13 dreads running around these days).
What they also are, is slow as piss. They don't have massed firepower (240 points for 2 strength 8 shots), so they struggle with lots of vehicles and lots of hordes. massed low ap fire is also a problem.

One way to deal with the mobility issue is to mount up in land raiders. They other way, is to strip your opponent of his mobility. Against an enemy only as mobile as you, the deathwing terminators match up well against nearly every other army out there. So once you have your core of deathwing, everything else in your army should be set up to provide the firepower needed to get your opponent demeched, having his ap2 templates, plasma etc. out of the game and so on.

So the way I built my deathwing was to look at the options in the codex that were points efficient and allowed me to do that.

Excellent:
- land speeder typhoons with multimeltas. 75 points for 2 s8 shots with a potential for a third? yes please. also add some valuable frag templates.

Very Good:
- predators with autocannon and lascannon sponsons. these are my go to once ive got a decent number of terminators and filled my fast attack with typhoons. they are transport and MC hunters. if these aren't present, their only role is to shake and stun tanks that worry me (demolishers, executioners, vindicators)
- mortis pattern dreadnoughts. also known as the rifleman. Every other marine army has these. They were a dark angels dreadnought first and are available if you have access to Imperial Armour 2. see all the pinch of salt arguments re: use of forgeworld, but no-one should have a problem with these. I only mention them as they're easier to get past your opponent than contemptor dreads (the mortis pattern of which is amazing)

OK:
- ravenwing bikes with meltaguns and multimelta attack bikes. no doubt melta is the pinnacle of anti tank, and yes you get a scout move, but they are often trading a killpoint for a killpoint and the regular meltas might not be in range first turn, leading to them being shot off the table. also compete for slots with typhoons.
- vindicators. S10 ordanance is great. But, the hole can scatter off the hull, they have 1 weapon so are easily silenced with 1 weapon destroyed result and only have a 24 inch range, meaning they'll be put in the line of fire much more often than the predator.
- regular/venerable dreads. there's just better options, i feel. However, multimelta dread in a drop pod is 180 points. 200 for a venerable (which is about what your average marine player pays) and our drop pods don't get shafted by drop pod assault.
- predator w/autocannon/heavy bolter. not as good against transports as autolas, but still decent and has some of the anti horde you lack.

So, it looks like your current list is around 1500 points. At that level, I would consider;
belial

upgraded squad - apothecary, banner, cyclone, couple of THSS.
deathwing squad x3 - cyclone, chainfist, couple of THSS

3x land speeder typhoon w/multimelta

1x predator - autocannon/lascannons.

OR
2x land speeder typhoon w/multimelta
2x predator - autocannon/heavy bolters

If you're not comfortable with predators, the pred can be subbed out for a chaplain or librarian (need to drop a chainfist), to make 3 of your squads a combat threat (one w/belial, command squad, one w/chaplain/libby).

From there, I add a terminator squad because I like 5 troops. Others add 2 more predators, and have been very successful with it.
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Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2012, 10:41:08 AM »
Thank you for your input but you didn't address the question raised in the orginal post.

While i am thankful for your indepth analysis i'm not looking to completely overhall my list to suite somone elses style of play and I don't want a 'design by comitee' list which can happen very easily on these boards.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 04:13:40 PM by Brother Galis »

Offline HORDE

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 04:33:49 AM »
In that case I'd agree with Sheepz. 2 vindicators. Big template is useful for hordes and it's got some punch to it. You have to dedicate babysitting units though to protect their side armour or you'll find them not too fulfilling.

and 3 would be better than 2, but you don't really have the points.

The Ven Dreads, if you take them are a.) more fluffy for deathwing and b.) a great carrier of plasma cannons, which in any environment that isn't a competitive tournament, is always fun and scares people.
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Offline maturin

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2012, 12:41:53 AM »
Also, any advantage of taking 1 of each excluding the Land Speeder?

No.  I have found to make armour effective in any manner (especially vindicators and dreadnoughts), repetition is your friend.  Having a pair is always more effective than running one.  Also, if two dreadnoughts are not effective, one is even worse.

I've never found this line of thinking to make any sense to me.  Or at least, not in that simplistic of a presentation.

Of course two units are better than one.  And ten units are better than two.  It's a comparison that ignores the cost of the additional units.  Having 2 of something does not make either one of them operate any "better" than before - they're still two separate units with the exact same stats as when there was only one present.

Now, what having multiples of something does do is build role redundancy into an armylist - so that if you're relying on a dakka predator to be your main anti-horde, having a second will preserve anti-horde capability in your list should one pred be knocked out (for example).  But multiples are not the only way to ensure role redundancy in a list, and might not necessarily be the best solution.  So deciding on what units to take requires careful analysis of the relative capabilities of units in your list, and ensuring that all the essential roles are covered and have backups (anti-armor, anti-MEQ, anti-horde, etc).

In Brother Galis' list, the vindis and ven dreads both offer 1)  Increased AP2 firepower (which the termies lack) and 2)  a target to suck up AP1 or 2 fire that would otherwise be directed at the termies.  Which is the better choice?  It depends on which of these Brother Galis chooses to emphasize.

The Vindicators have a more potent gun and offer AV13 in front.  But they only have AV11 on the sides, and with no rhinos to shield their sides it will be difficult to prevent your opponent from getting side shots in.  And they only have one gun, so a single "weapon destroyed" result negates the damage output and threat of the vehicle.  This choice does have the bonus of a LS typhoon with MM - not an insignificant addition, though lightly armored and likely to be shot out of the sky quickly (as the only speeder on the field).

The Ven Dreads are only AV12 and have a less potent gun (though still at AP2).  However, their special rules, multiple weapons, and AV12/12/10 make them much more likely to be viable fire magnets for multiple turns.

Since the roles the two units play in this list are similar, choosing two of one sort may not actually have an advantage over one of each.  The choice simply affects how the list will play.  Using one of each, the vindicator would presumably act as the primary threat/fire magnet, while the dread serves as the secondary fire magnet once the vindi is disabled.

Brother Galis' choice will be informed by the range of opponents in his playing area and how he sees his vehicles used on the field (vs the termies).

Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 01:55:21 PM »
Note that this list does include a Land Raider Crusader, if the changes anything, some people seem to be forgetting it.

Offline HORDE

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Re: [DA] Deathwing with Vindicators or Dreadnoughts 1500
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2012, 08:28:31 AM »
it doesn't really. It gives you a big ol' rock unit that will draw fire away from the vinidicators.

However, heed the wisdom of above posters. Units taken in duplicate are more than twice as effective as a single.

2 land raider crusaders filled with terminators is scary. 1 is melta bait.

Deathwing are very limited in how you build the army (if we're talking competitive lists), so you're going to have to playtest and see what happens.
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