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Main => Background => Topic started by: Frowny on January 28, 2010, 02:23:57 PM
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Hey,
Reading more about the thousand sons, it says they are sorcerers, and were ultimately disliked because of it. I was confused about how this interplays with psychics, which are at least somewhat accepted in the imperium. How is this different from being a psycher? Could someone be a powerful psycher and powerful sorcerer? Does sorcery have to do exclusively with the more demonic side of things, or are they merely different names for the same thing. If so, why were the sorcerous thousand sons disliked, given that the emperor himself is a psycher...
Any help would be appreciated
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I'm pretty sure the sourcery thing refers to forming daemonic pacts to give a psyker additional strength. I could be wrong though.
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That's the way I see it. Sorcery involves bargining the power of another (Chaos God, daemon etc) for your own use. Psykers use their own power (with warp connection it appears) rather than anyone elses.
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Just to add this on all sorcerors are psykers but not all psykers are sorcerors.
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Of course, there isn't anything to stop someone being a psyker and a sorcerer - a naturally gifted psyker can easily make himself far more powerful through pacts with a daemon (which, as a matter of fact, is what is more often shown).
Edit: ninja'd.
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The simplest way to view this is through the anthropological lens. In this, psychic powers are "magic" in that they influence the material world not according to its laws. Sorcery is defined as magic that has intent to harm. Thus, the K-sons were sorcerers, as their psychic activities (in hindsight) were known to be harmful.
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The Warp and Chaos while connected are two differant things, those that traffic with Chaos are Sorcerers while Psykers draw on unfettered Warp energy. Psykers can serve as conduits to Chaos which demonstrates the connection but they are still differant.
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The simplest way to view this is through the anthropological lens. In this, psychic powers are "magic" in that they influence the material world not according to its laws. Sorcery is defined as magic that has intent to harm. Thus, the K-sons were sorcerers, as their psychic activities (in hindsight) were known to be harmful.
This sounds quite blurry and doesn't really suit as a definition, psykers such as Farseers do harm as well (perils of the warp or Eldritch Storm for example) so it doesn't really work.
The Warp and Chaos while connected are two differant things, those that traffic with Chaos are Sorcerers while Psykers draw on unfettered Warp energy. Psykers can serve as conduits to Chaos which demonstrates the connection but they are still differant.
Sorcerers seek out daemonic entities within the warp and makes pacts with them to further their powers, you could, theoretically, be a chaos worshipper but still only use psychic powers without resorting to sorcery.
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Theoretically yes they could but the distinction between Sorcerer and Psyker is a neccesary one, if they are contaminated through contact with Chaos they become Rogue Psykers...I guess its fair to observe that its their souls that become property of the Chaos Gods and that they could still use Warp powers away from sorcery. I think the term sorcery probably more applys to the Chaos Marines rather tahn ordinary Psykers.
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Theoretically yes they could but the distinction between Sorcerer and Psyker is a neccesary one, if they are contaminated through contact with Chaos they become Rogue Psykers...I guess its fair to observe that its their souls that become property of the Chaos Gods and that they could still use Warp powers away from sorcery. I think the term sorcery probably more applys to the Chaos Marines rather tahn ordinary Psykers.
Once again, the term sorcery means to seek out daemonic entities in the warp and bargain for power with them, it has nothing to do with being a Chaos Space Marine or not, and a Rogue Psyker isn't necessarily into chaos worship and he can be a sorcerer, if he has made such pacts. What defines sorcery is the enhance your psychic powers with the help of daemons.
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I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned, although it's 1am so excuse a possible rehash of information, is that one doesn't even have to be psychic to become a sorcerer -- Disciples of the Dark Gods details how this can work, although it does inevitably end up in daemonic pacts one way or the other (forbidden lore tends to be a solid start point...)
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That was my understanding too. You don't have to be a psyker to practice sorcery. Though no doubt it would make it easier.
Theoretically - a totally ordinary human could come across some sort of sorcerous grimoire that has instructions for sorcerous rituals, and if he performed them correctly would be able to do magic type stuff.
I assume that Kyril Sinderman did something similar in the first few Horus Heresy novels to summon those Horrors, albeit totally unintentionally.
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yes, sorcery is not dependant on psychic abilty, it can be utilsed with incantations etc.
aemos in the eisenhorn books summons cherebeal even though he is not a psycher.
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Which is what makes sorcery so dangerous. Anyone can have a go at it and, if successful, might a right mess for someone else to clean up. As a very loose example consider driving a car. Most anyone can do if trained yet even an untrained person can have a go with potentially disastrous consequences.
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It's been a while, but what the heck. The 40k hobbyist boards seem to be on a bit of slump at the moment and the question seemed interesting. With the caveat (as always) that this represents my own reading of the disparate background materials, though I shall try and make it clear where personal interpretation intersects with the official 'fluff.'
So, what is sorcery? It seems that one of the first places to start is what Foalchu referred to as the "anthropological lens." As most of our information comes from the perspective of the Imperium of Man (even, arguably, the information on the xenos breeds), it is not surprising that in many ways the buck stops there. Thus, in the Imperium of Man, the term "witch," "sorcerer," "wizard" etc. seem to be bandied around regardless. Generally speaking, for them, it seems that any form of monkeying around with the warp is bad mojo.
So, form the perspective of the Imperium it's really a question of who is throwing the name around as to whether you're engaged in sorcery or not.
In terms of the wargame mechanics, there isn't a whole lot of difference given the level of granularity of those mechanics--the powers of sorcerers and psykers are represented in a similar fashion.
What about the roleplaying game, Dark Heresy (or Rogue Trader for that matter)? Well, there it shares the same level of confusion. Sorcery is just represented as a type of psyker power that you need "Sorcery" Talent for. It doesn't really address the question nor is it, IMO anyway, particularly flavoursome. Quite the opposite in fact.
On the other hand, there are bits in earlier bits of the book (Malleus section of Disciples of the Dark Gods that allude to some form of connection between sorcery and ritualism, or at least Chaos rituals. More on that latter.
It has been suggested that sorcery is directly related to dealing with the powers of Chaos (or perhaps other warp entities). Dark Heresy would counter that suggestion, since it defines--not very well, but it does--between two "paths" of sorcery: the left-hand path, which deals more with summoning and binding of spirits, and the right-hand path which deals more with apotropaism (hexagrammic wards, producing swords that work against daemons, etc.).
Personally? My interpretation is still being formed, since it is partially formed around RPG rules in an alternate system. On my own benefit, the primary difference between a psyker and a sorcerer relates to the premise of ritualism. A sorcerer, by default, works through the proxy of rituals regardless of whether they are themselves a psyker. Through the use of rituals they are able to do things that otherwise they might not be able to do, e.g. work at a distance, generate more power then they alone could do, etc.
While some have the "talent" for being a sorcerer, there is nothing stopping Jo(ann) Q Imperium from picking up a malefic codex (or other book) and using it to whatever intent is codified therein. (Well, other than the Inquisition.) They are now a dabbler, darned their heretical eyes.
Of course, different people have different abilities, so I'm sure that there are those individuals that are more "gifted" at Sorcery than others. These are the true Sorcerers, not just dabblers, and they come in different ranks, e.g. Adept, Master etc. (See Disciples of the Dark Gods where it uses "Master Sorcerer," though again seems to miss out on any flavour.) I would imagine that higher "ranking" Sorcerers might be able to replicate similar effects to psykers, e.g. taking less time, not requiring all the symbolic materials and associations, or not requiring that it be done in a specific locale or under propitious astrological (or whatever) situations.
Erm, I'm rambling. Anyway, in answer to the original poster:
Could someone be a powerful psycher and powerful sorcerer?
Yes. In Dark Heresy being a sorcerer adds to your Psi attribute, which makes you a more powerful psyker. It doesn't quite explain this, but there is precedent in the setting at least.
Does sorcery have to do exclusively with the more demonic side of things, or are they merely different names for the same thing.
No, hence the two "paths" of magic: left and right.
If so, why were the sorcerous thousand sons disliked, given that the emperor himself is a psycher...
Because the Emperor didn't like Sorcery, because he defines it as bad. Except the good kind, but we don't talk about that. :D
I'm pretty sure the sourcery thing refers to forming daemonic pacts to give a psyker additional strength. I could be wrong though.
I would imagine that it might definitely be a component. Indeed, the summoning of a "daemonic familiar" is specifically mentioned in the Radical's Handbook (another Dark Heresy 40k RPG supplement). One imagines that many malefic codices deal specifically with how to get in touch with daemons.
Certainly, though, I would imagine that a pact with a daemon would give one access to all kinds of abilities, perhaps even those that replicate that of psykers without actually having to go through all the rigmarole of becoming a "Master Sorcerer." Of course, there are things to be said by taking the slow and sure path rather than the quick route to power. It might even be proverb.
That's the way I see it. Sorcery involves bargining the power of another (Chaos God, daemon etc) for your own use.
Wards, hexagrammic/pentagrammic/octagrammic (or whatever they're calling them now) are all related to sorcery. Whether this involves a subconscious bargain with an entity is up for grabs in individual interpretations, I guess.
Erm, I'm going to stop there. Feels a bit weird to post something here. :D
Kage
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I always thought that that is was cannon that the difference between a psycher and a sorcerer was demonic pacts but now that I have read all the examples and point of views now I am not sure anymore. One example I can give from the Eisenhorn trilogy is that alpha plus psycher have the power to actually fuse or take control of lesser daemons (my interpretation anyway) by absorbing them and as such are alpha plus psychers are incredibly powerful. They were not considered sorcerers but rather dangerous psychers so it is possible it requires more than just demonic influence for a person to be dubbed a sorcerer.
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Making "demonic pact" is a common definition of sorcery in the real world, i.e.
..the art, practices, or spells of a person who is supposed to exercise supernatural powers through the aid of evil spirits; black magic; witchery.
So it's not really surprising for the confusion. It's just that it is not required in Dark Heresy. With that said, however, they're not the most inspiring rules on the subject so take with a pinch of salt.
What would you prefer sorcery to be? I think that's by far the most important question to answer. :D
Kage
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To me, sorcery is composed of the various acts, rites, rituals, etc that involve direct dealings with Daemons. Thus, wards and the like are still related to sorcery as they are the inverse of making contact with Daemons, actively and pre-emptively repelling them instead.
I like this as it makes Magnus the Red's and other sorcerers' assertion that sorcery need not be inherently evil, wrong, etc more valid. Certainly studying something to learn its weaknesses is common, but harder to do in the face of an other-dimensional intelligence that could be doing the same thing back. Still, makes it less cut and dry as to who is right or wrong in such circumstances.
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To my mind, sorcery is not so easily defined as being 'evil' as some sources would have us believe. I think, therefore, that sorcery can be split into two groups, one which fits the stereotype, linking it too pacts with daemons, summoning rituals, arcane arts, and similar activities; while the other is just a different type of psychic ability.
I would argue that sorcery is potentially more powerful, thus it can be more dangerous, especially to the caster, but this does not inherently make it bad.
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To my mind, sorcery is not so easily defined as being 'evil' as some sources would have us believe. I think, therefore, that sorcery can be split into two groups, one which fits the stereotype, linking it too pacts with daemons, summoning rituals, arcane arts, and similar activities; while the other is just a different type of psychic ability.
I agree, and so too does Dark Heresy, even if it is lacking in flavour. Don't get me wrong, pacts with daemons may be a very common feature of Sorcery, but I don't see it as definitive of it.
I would argue that sorcery is potentially more powerful, thus it can be more dangerous, especially to the caster, but this does not inherently make it bad.
Agreed again. One of the advantages of sorcery, for me, is that you can build a great deal more energy up over a prolonged period...
Kage
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To my mind, sorcery is not so easily defined as being 'evil' as some sources would have us believe. I think, therefore, that sorcery can be split into two groups, one which fits the stereotype, linking it too pacts with daemons, summoning rituals, arcane arts, and similar activities; while the other is just a different type of psychic ability.
I could be very wrong but is it possible the way we hear it is from an imperial tone in which the existing prejudices and dogma would come through in the analysis
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Depending on how you look at it though, some of the Imperial dogma lends itself quite well to sorcery in a different wrapper. Faith in the Emperor protects, acts of faith(Faith?) themselves for instance, rituals of the machine spirit and so forth. It's the ritual and belief that matter rather than the names and icons.
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I could be very wrong but is it possible the way we hear it is from an imperial tone in which the existing prejudices and dogma would come through in the analysis
As indicated in other threads, that's pretty much how I view it. In fact, I get pretty depressed if I view the materials as actual "truth." :D
Kage
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As far as I have gathered the Imperium's view is that even such sorcerous activities that do not directly involve daemons (eg. bargaining for psychic power etc) such as wards and rituals still has daemons at their heart, feeding power to the ritual while the sorcerer in performing his act (perhaps unknowingly) does agree to a pact with the chaotic forces, basically sorcery is always bad. If such rituals are not aimed (unknowingly or not) at the daemons of chaos (eg. Adepus Mechanicus ritualised machine repair etc) than it does not constitute sorcery. Now is this as PMF suggested prejudice or does it contain some truths? What I find speaking for it is that the Emperor himself made this division and, if there is a difference, surely he must have known about it? Then again it might have been a case of convenience from his side.
But Kage, it becomes quite difficult in my view to have any sort of definition of sorcery in the way you describe it, it just seems to be besluddering slang for psychic use with some common attributes that you don't like, which, in my view, is a bit to open ended a definition. You talk about wards and ritualised psychic activity but what do you propose is the source of those activities' power? Is it the sorcerer's belief that reflect back from the warp or what do you suggest? Can you call all sort of faith based mysticism to be sorcery?
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...basically sorcery is always bad.
From the Imperial standpoint, assuming that it isn't apotropaism? Yeah, pretty much. Of course, we also get into the territory of a culture seeing something as bad and it actually being bad (in the game context).
But Kage, it becomes quite difficult in my view to have any sort of definition of sorcery in the way you describe it, it just seems to be besluddering slang for psychic use with some common attributes that you don't like, which, in my view, is a bit to open ended a definition. You talk about wards and ritualised psychic activity but what do you propose is the source of those activities' power? Is it the sorcerer's belief that reflect back from the warp or what do you suggest? Can you call all sort of faith based mysticism to be sorcery?
Not sure how to break up that paragraph into chunks, so I've left it as is since I guess that I'm referring to it all.
To explain the "structure" comment, that is not entirely off my making, but rather is based from commentary in the official 40k RPG materials, e.g. Dark Heresy, Disciples of the Dark Gods and The Radical's Handbook. Admittedly, I feel those books present a very bland interpretation of sorcery, but there you have it. They also take the approach whereby they are just basically "psyker powers" that get called minor and major "arcana" to make them sound more impressive.
With regards to the power component of sorcery, as with psyker powers that is quite clear: ultimately it derives from the warp. I don't think that anyone would question that.
Erm, but beyond that, and despite the question marks, I'm not quite sure of your question. The sorcerous ritual shapes the warp, which then has an effect in the matterium.
Is "faith based mysticism" sorcery? Well, it really depends on what you're talking about. On my behalf I consider "faith powers" from the game to be functionally similar to psyker powers but... Well, we begin to get into how it is modeled in a game rather than the philosophy of it all.
Sorry about the rambling response, but not entirely sure where you're coming from or what you were heading towards.
Kage
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Yes, after re-reading my post I see that it isn't especially clear what I meant...
Basically the way I view psychic powers or use of psychic energies (which of course might be wrong ;)) is that it involves some sort of opening into the warp to actually gain these powers. Now, how could sorcerous rituals make such an opening if it did not involve the actual denizens of the warp (daemons)? Is it the faith or belief of the sorcerer that makes the opening or does the actual ritual penetrate the barrier? For me the last suggestion seems unlikely unless previous psykers (who have the capacity to make an opening all by themselves) have laid down some sort of ground work that can be accessed with the ritual or if the warp was somehow naturally pre-programmed to react to the ritual, is this what you suggest?
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Ah, to boil your question down even further, it would seem that you're asking: How does magic work?
That's a bit of a daunting question to answer. ;) As with you, though, I can only answer from my own perspective.
Basically the way I view psychic powers or use of psychic energies (which of course might be wrong ;)) is that it involves some sort of opening into the warp to actually gain these powers.
For me there is a defined difference. Using psyker abilities is akin to... Erm, a kettle. The psyker opens themselves up to the warp (electricity) and using their innate gifts, channel the warp into a given effect (electricity into heating element to boil the water). While sorcery uses the same electricity, rather than directing the energy into the heating element to heat the water, does so by induction: activity in the "induction coil" creates similar patterns in the warp, with an effect that is determined by the nature of the ritual.
Okay, perhaps not the best analogy in the world, and I'm sure that it will fall apart without too much effort, but ultimately it goes to illustrate the key difference between channeling of energy to produce an effect, and the use of ritual to induct the movement and patterning of warp energy to similarly produce an effect.
Not a single daemon is involved. That doesn't mean that they cannot be, just that it isn't inherently a requirement.
Ultimately, though, it comes down to explaining how magic works. Ultimately in the game universe it does work and, well, that's that. :D
Kage
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Ah, to boil your question down even further, it would seem that you're asking: How does magic work?
Well, considering that the discussion is about sorcery compared to "regular" psychic powers isn't that kind of the whole point? :)
Okay, perhaps not the best analogy in the world, and I'm sure that it will fall apart without too much effort, but ultimately it goes to illustrate the key difference between channeling of energy to produce an effect, and the use of ritual to induct the movement and patterning of warp energy to similarly produce an effect.
So what you do suggest is that sorcery isn't merely an ill-defined term thrown around but that the warp is reactive to certain stimuli from the Materium that, when used, can access psychic energy in a similar way to how a psyker can intuitively access the warp or enhance a psyker's capacity to access it? Much in the same way that warp engines can open a rift without actually being psychic but through certain "mechanical" operations?
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Well, considering that the discussion is about sorcery compared to "regular" psychic powers isn't that kind of the whole point? :)
Well, there is a difference between how they work in a given system of abstraction (e.g. RPG rules), and discussing the specific metaphysics of how they work. But fair enough point. :D
So what you do suggest is that sorcery isn't merely an ill-defined term thrown around but that the warp is reactive to certain stimuli from the Materium that, when used, can access psychic energy in a similar way to how a psyker can intuitively access the warp or enhance a psyker's capacity to access it? Much in the same way that warp engines can open a rift without actually being psychic but through certain "mechanical" operations?
No, I'm pretty much leaving sorcery as a term that is bandied around with remarkable frequency. But, yes, ultimately it comes down to the idea that sorcerous abilities are psyker-like but they're not psyker powers. Depending on the "power" of the sorcerer, they might be able to drop some of the ritualistic prerequisites, but it's still not going to be the same as psyker powers. (Same system, different flavour.)
If I were to return to the Dark Heresy representation of sorcery, there really isn't any flavour to it even though it does use the same system.
With regards to warp drives, there's no reason that they could not work through sorcerous means. That is, the flow of energy, the construction and "shape," etc., work to achieve the same effect as a sorcerous ritual. I'm not saying that this is the case, but it is interesting to think about. :D
Kage
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No, I'm pretty much leaving sorcery as a term that is bandied around with remarkable frequency. But, yes, ultimately it comes down to the idea that sorcerous abilities are psyker-like but they're not psyker powers. Depending on the "power" of the sorcerer, they might be able to drop some of the ritualistic prerequisites, but it's still not going to be the same as psyker powers. (Same system, different flavour.)
I think we are on the same page here. Although I would stress the capacity to also enhance a psyker's already available capabilities through the use of sorcery, using both "flavours" at once... It is after all that which is the most famous inuniverse example of sorcery, the Thousand Sons, and from a non-rpg stand point the most common type of sorcery 40k players encounter.
With regards to warp drives, there's no reason that they could not work through sorcerous means. That is, the flow of energy, the construction and "shape," etc., work to achieve the same effect as a sorcerous ritual. I'm not saying that this is the case, but it is interesting to think about. :D
Yes, by the definition stated warp drives could certainly fall within sorcery, of course it is all about definition, isn't it?
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I think we are on the same page here.
Don't you just love it when that happens? It means that you're agreeing with me...
...Or I'm agreeing with you. One of the two. ;)
Although I would stress the capacity to also enhance a psyker's already available capabilities through the use of sorcery, using both "flavours" at once...
True.
On a personal note, which is to say how I represent things, this happens even though they're represented by two different approaches/systems. Sorcery allows you to do more, and when a gifted Adept you're as scary as they can come. Psykers are just more immediate. :D
But that gets more into the RPing side of thing, so perhaps not entirely appropriate for this forum.
Yes, by the definition stated warp drives could certainly fall within sorcery, of course it is all about definition, isn't it?
Erm, how do you mean? Define it... ;)
(Just kidding, of course. :D)
Kage