Topic: Just learned about the new Orks...

[Kiefatar]

Sorry, I thought Carnies could get up to T8. I'm not a nid player.

Even 120 orks on foot, with a requisite HQ (assume a Big Mek with KFF to provide cover saves to 3 units tops) and Rokit/PK Nob fixings is still not as problematic as you think.

Your range guestimations are assuming what though? 6" a turn x 3 is only 18". Most people aren't going to call out the waagh until they need it, and thats assuming a completely empty table, which is far from likely. The boys will get in their own way and bottle-neck themselves. LOS and range can be used to kill the guys in front increasing the distance needed, or the guys in the middle giving you a breathing room to assault units one at a time and take them apart.

Even in an absolute vacuum table with nothing but dice and models, I don't think the orks green tide is going to fare quite as well as you expect against any balanced list, let alone if objectives are actually the key to the game.

[Benandorf]

Wow, dejavu... I think I had this same argument on the ork board.

You can easily fill all 6 troop slots in 1500 points, with a warboss and warphead.  If you're fighting tyranids, you probably would if you wanted to tweak your list.  There is just no way for us to kill that many in 6 turns.  And it takes away our biggest advantage: tying up shooting units.  Because the shoota boyz can out-melee hormagaunts, by a little.  So how does speed help us if we can't kill the shooty ones in combat, even?  We can't even beat them with termagants shooting and charging, because they'll shoot more, and more than likely they'll get the charge.

A barbed strangler is nice, but even if you hit 6 times with it, a competent opponent will not put their boyz close enough together for you to kill more than 6 or 7 at best.  And 42 boyz over 6 turns is not that much considering you could have another 140 right behind them easily.

I doubt I'm underestimating the amount of damage I can do in my shooting phase, because we'll only get to shoot once with our termagants.  And they kill termagants much easier than we kill shoota boyz, yet they cost the same price.

So, to sum it up: Boyz are the price of termagants but more hitty, more surviable, and more shooty, and can conceivably be taken in masses without hurting the army list.  If you put 180 termagants on the board, you're gonna get gunned down.  But orks can survive more, have almost equal leadership (admittedly, synapse is a bit better than the mob rule, but not by much), and can shoot at longer range.

You say only 6" movement, but with a warpboss and warphead, you'll get some fleets in there.  With Ghazghkull and a warp head, you'll get at least one guaranteed 6" fleet.

If they wanted to make boyz so cheap, they needed to bring animosity over from the fantasy Orcs.  That's the only thing that keeps them balanced over there.  Well, and the fact that they have worse stats.

[coredump]

A 1000 pts force consisting of boyz is

1000 points = 166 orks = An Illegal list

Why is it illegal?  You can have 6x30 boyz, or 180 total.

When Maniac talked about a 1000pt force, I assume that is part of a larger army. So that means you have 500-1000 pts to spend on other units.

1 T8 Carnie could old them up indefinately

If the Orks decide to attack a T7 fex.... that is their bad. There are other ork units for that.

OTOH, a T7 fex tends to be a lot of points.... *more* points than a mob of boyz. So it is hard to tell who is holding up whom.

very frag missile and blast marker/template weapon would have a field day,

Yep, for a turn or two... maybe three. But how many does that kill?  It still leave a buttload to shoot and charge.

I have played swarm armies.... you get to kill a whole bunch of TGants, and you feel great, until you see how many are still on the board. Orks are better at shooting, much better at assaulting, and don't worry about Ld/Synapse.

Deathspitters, Barbed Stranglers and Dakka Fexxes, all comon in 'Nid lists, will take giant chunks out of ork mobs

I think you misunderstand the word 'big'
Devil fexes have an 18" range. So you get one shot, and then get swarmed. So you get to kill 5 (5 is not 'big') and then you die.
Barb Strangler hits once every other turn. And it will kill another 5ish, but you probably only get to hit once.

That is the nature of a swarm. They are easy to kill, but it doesn't matter, they can just grow more.

Even in a straightup fight the nids have a decent chance with Hormagaunts with their 3" contributory attacks and higher initiative.

Boyz have higher toughness, and *more* attacks. The higher I will greatly help the Hgaunts, but since they cost a lot more... I doubt it will help enough.


I am not saying that Orks are unstoppable, but you *have* to give the boyz some respect, if you assume a few templates will even the field.... you will be destroyed.

[Benandorf]

The only lists I can think of that will regularly an ork horde a close game/beat them is Armoured Company and maybe Mech Eldar.  But AC is countered by power klaws anyways, and if you play your cards right, those mech eldar won't survive long against some of the big guns for orks (lootas, specifically).

[YuenglingDragon]

Your range guestimations are assuming what though? 6" a turn x 3 is only 18". Most people aren't going to call out the waagh until they need it, and thats assuming a completely empty table, which is far from likely. The boys will get in their own way and bottle-neck themselves. LOS and range can be used to kill the guys in front increasing the distance needed, or the guys in the middle giving you a breathing room to assault units one at a time and take them apart.

That's 18" plus the 3.5" average fleet move = 21.5" in 3 turns pre-charge.  So realistically we'll get 2-3 turns of shooting with out most long ranged things like Stranglers, and Deathspitters.  Probably only one or two rounds with Devourers and definitely only one round of shooting with Fleshborers and Spinefists.  That's really not a lot of dead Orks unless you've written a shooty list with Orks in mind.

Even in an absolute vacuum table with nothing but dice and models, I don't think the orks green tide is going to fare quite as well as you expect against any balanced list, let alone if objectives are actually the key to the game.

I just can't figure out how you would come to this conclusion.  If Boyz are the best infantry in the game then they will do well.  That's sort of what "best" entails. 

As far as objective based games, I think 30 Orks would be hard to dislodge from an objective, much less 120 Orks.

But Apocalypse has a good point.  Lets think of the solution rather than expounding on the problem.  Kiefatar, if you don't believe there is a problem then there is, by definition, no solution so we need not debate it further.

Orks Weaknesses

1. Leadership.  If you can get mobs down in the shooting phase you can mostly stop worrying about them.  Once they stop being fearless bunches of 30 pissed of Orks they're rather more manageable.
2. Lack of reliable high strength shooing.  Tankbustas aren't as good from what I've been told by Ork players but the Lootas got nasty.  Luckily our MC'sl still get their save but you can kiss your brood of Carapaced 'Stealers goodbye.  This is one instance where we get a little screwed by not having vehicles.  The orks are very weak against AV14 but even a large enough number of shoota's will drop a Carnifex.
3. Distractions.  I think competitive armies are likely to mostly just be Boyz, Lootas, Storm Boyz and Kans but in fun games you'll see other nutty stuff like the Battle Wagons, Deff Dreds, and Flashgits.  These are ok or good options too but nowhere near as statistically good as the really competitive stuff.

I'll keep thinking about it.

[Kiefatar]

All I can say is you guys are Theorcrafting WAY to much... oh and dakka-fex and barbed stranglers are fairly common in any nid force, so not really tailor made against orks.

PLAY, build a 1500pt list with the 120 boys and whatever you want. Try it out against decent opponents of all types and then submit some battle-reports. I could be completely wrong, but I'm fairly sure most people will stear clear of that list simply because having to MOVE 120 boys, while maintaing a good space cohesion to prevent against the template/blast weapons is going to drive them away from the green tide.

In Tournament play it's even more improbable.

[coredump]

Necrons will probably do okay.

They can rapidfire, and when assaulted 'lith out and rapidfire again.

[Kiefatar]

1. Leadership.  If you can get mobs down in the shooting phase you can mostly stop worrying about them.  Once they stop being fearless bunches of 30 pissed of Orks they're rather more manageable.
2. Lack of reliable high strength shooing.  Tankbustas aren't as good from what I've been told by Ork players but the Lootas got nasty.  Luckily our MC'sl still get their save but you can kiss your brood of Carapaced 'Stealers goodbye.  This is one instance where we get a little screwed by not having vehicles.  The orks are very weak against AV14 but even a large enough number of shoota's will drop a Carnifex.
3. Distractions.  I think competitive armies are likely to mostly just be Boyz, Lootas, Storm Boyz and Kans but in fun games you'll see other nutty stuff like the Battle Wagons, Deff Dreds, and Flashgits.  These are ok or good options too but nowhere near as statistically good as the really competitive stuff.

I think its still going to be Speed Freaks which carry the day with the new orks, with the possible inclusion of Lootas, though they may end up being a fun toy, but impractical, if simply because they will instantly get turned into a pile of green bits whenever the opponent has a chance. The elite stuff is going to require a fine hand to use properly and rarely fits in with many ork battle plans.

[Apocalypse]

Your range guestimations are assuming what though? 6" a turn x 3 is only 18". Most people aren't going to call out the waagh until they need it, and thats assuming a completely empty table, which is far from likely. The boys will get in their own way and bottle-neck themselves. LOS and range can be used to kill the guys in front increasing the distance needed, or the guys in the middle giving you a breathing room to assault units one at a time and take them apart.

That's 18" plus the 3.5" average fleet move = 21.5" in 3 turns pre-charge.  So realistically we'll get 2-3 turns of shooting with out most long ranged things like Stranglers, and Deathspitters.  Probably only one or two rounds with Devourers and definitely only one round of shooting with Fleshborers and Spinefists.  That's really not a lot of dead Orks unless you've written a shooty list with Orks in mind.

Even in an absolute vacuum table with nothing but dice and models, I don't think the orks green tide is going to fare quite as well as you expect against any balanced list, let alone if objectives are actually the key to the game.

I just can't figure out how you would come to this conclusion.  If Boyz are the best infantry in the game then they will do well.  That's sort of what "best" entails. 

As far as objective based games, I think 30 Orks would be hard to dislodge from an objective, much less 120 Orks.

But Apocalypse has a good point.  Lets think of the solution rather than expounding on the problem.  Kiefatar, if you don't believe there is a problem then there is, by definition, no solution so we need not debate it further.

Orks Weaknesses

1. Leadership.  If you can get mobs down in the shooting phase you can mostly stop worrying about them.  Once they stop being fearless bunches of 30 pissed of Orks they're rather more manageable.
2. Lack of reliable high strength shooing.  Tankbustas aren't as good from what I've been told by Ork players but the Lootas got nasty.  Luckily our MC'sl still get their save but you can kiss your brood of Carapaced 'Stealers goodbye.  This is one instance where we get a little screwed by not having vehicles.  The orks are very weak against AV14 but even a large enough number of shoota's will drop a Carnifex.
3. Distractions.  I think competitive armies are likely to mostly just be Boyz, Lootas, Storm Boyz and Kans but in fun games you'll see other nutty stuff like the Battle Wagons, Deff Dreds, and Flashgits.  These are ok or good options too but nowhere near as statistically good as the really competitive stuff.

I'll keep thinking about it.

I would also like to believe that having that many models on the table would make it a amphetamine parrot LOAD harder to manuever your units. I think that we could add lack of manueverability to the list (only Viable in green tide orks or course, and I would presume that everyone and their cat would have at least a single buggy or 3)   I have to admit, I also think the speed freaks are gonna be what puts the orks out there again. I have fought alot against the old orks, and the only way they could even come close to contesting me in VP's is to play speed freaks and hit me where HE wanted it, and nowhere I wanted it (which we all know the orks can do just as well as us.)

[Benandorf]

Well old orks needed Speed Freekz, because they didn't have speed.  With a warboss/Ghazghkull and a warphead, they don't need to worry so much about it now.

And on a 6x4 table, there will be plenty of room to put down your units.  Maneuvering will be hard to do, but if there's literally a wall of greenskins, it doesn't really matter.  Which, if you spread out each model around 1"-2", then I think it's very likely that they will cove most of the board.

[maniacs1]

Here's one idea.

Work out a decent size brood of cheap termagents(fleshborers or spinefists). Don't expect them to survive. They run and  meet the forward mob/s and hold them up. Don't charge them. If you can get real close to the Orks to deny them any extra move or moving closer with charging then  all the better. Every turn of movement they are denied is bad for Orks. If the brood forms a proper screen the mob has to attack it. These forms a 'wall' preventing the boyz behind it moving as well. Even boyz on the flank of this combat may have to wait till the combat is resolved. Do it right and all that flank may do for one turn is move a shuffle forward 3-4 inches.

Drop behind them spores.

Spores are barrage with multiple blast. If they contact an enemy. Which it is going to do with Ork hordes they explode as a multiple barrage. That means if 3 spores are in the group one blast marker is placed where it contacted, the other two are placed using the arrow die but touching the first. It's a 1 in 3 chance the barrage will land where you want it to.

Mobs like the Loota's are as expensive as marines. They have poor leadership, no armour  and lack the numbers of the boyz. If they have big mobs of lootas they really are easy points.

[Confused Counselor]

Wow, dejavu... I think I had this same argument on the ork board.

Indeed. And you failed to convince there either. 

One thing you are forgetting, constantly, is spread. Fantasy is the ultimate example of spread. You cannot do the math for skavenslaves figthing swordmasters of Hoeth (the lowest of the low and one of the most powerfull units in the game in terms of close combat prowess for non-fantasy players) by calculation that 12 swordmasters would earn you 90 slaves and that after the odd 15 casualties (30 points), you'd kill about 8 and earn yourself 120 points. Why? Because, obviously, they RANK UP.

40K is less true in that regard, however, spread of power is still there. Orks hordes have more power than anything else in the game, agreed. However, the spread that power, due to the fact that it is contained in 120 odd ork boyz over a huge amount space, making the actual power per square inch, so to speak, not up to the total amount of power other armies/units can field. This power can be increased, of course, to a certain extent by bumping up your orks. However, any template weapons (which you'll need unless you're Necron/mech eldar, otherwise you have a though fight on your hands) will do massive amounts of damage. Combine that with the fact that orks aren't that fast, even with dual warpheads, and yes, orks are good, but no, they are not unstoppable. Good tyranid players should get the charge on them and can probably wipe out units by striking first with considerable force in one place.

Like others have said, if you clear your killzone or most of it of orks, and kill a nice number of orks on the next turn, close combat specialist can quite well take out ork units. Also, terain and all the other factors earlier mentioned work against the ork.

So basically, a fight may well turn out to be what you claim it to be, which means the ork player played his list up to strength, he had his wave and got to apply it. He will lose when the other player manages to not let him apply it in the way you just portrayed. How spectaculary fluffy. You do not try to fight orks in a battle of attrition, you hit a few points with overwhelming force and round up from there. 

[Benandorf]

I failed to convince because no one was listening (and twisting my words to say that new orks are unstoppable, when in fact I just said they're too powerful, not unbeatable).  But what was I expecting?  You don't convince Eldar players that falcons are too hard to kill, you don't convince ork players that boyz are overpowered, you don't convince space marine players that assault cannons are too good, you don't convince tyranid players that MC lists are cheesey, etc.  Generally, at least.  I'm willing to accept that, I suppose.

*shrugs* The rest of the players will see what I was saying once Orks become main-stream.  Or maybe it'll turn out I'm wrong, and it will all be okay.  I wish I could believe that's likely.

[coredump]

Talk to an experienced Nid player that has used a 100 gaunt army... see how they did. Most I know have done very well, and the orks will be even better.

Again, not unstoppable, and I don't know how the rest of their codex is.... but you will have to gear your army for the Green Tide, just like you have to gear towards Zilla and skimmers.

[YuenglingDragon]

Well, Counselor, I'm glad you think it will be so easy for me to beat you.

The main difference I see between combat in fantasy and 40k as regards to this situaion is the ease of wrapping around a unit and the 2" range of engagement.  Typically, that allows for three ranks of models being engaged (impossible w/o spears in Fantasy IIRC).  If you have extra charge range you can begin wrapping around enemies immediately in 40k too.

Having some experience with large combats I can tell you that you'll probably be able to get most of your twenty to thirty Orks engaged.

[Ezeykle]

Speaking of cheesy MC lists  , I've been getting some help with one here (as some of you know) that might do decently against an Orc horde list. A good amount of Stealers should be able to do a decent amount of damage to the horde before getting overwhelmed, while 3 Sniperfexes bombard the rear. When the Orcs do break through the Stealers, the 8 MCs can unleash 48 decent strength shots with re-rolls to hit and wound plus BS and VC fire from the 3 Sniperfexes. If all goes well the Dakkafexes/Tyrants should get 2 turns of shooting before getting charged. All added up, thats a lot of damage.

[Benandorf]

You're right, a cheesey 'zilla list that's made perfectly CAN beat orks.  But it says something that it takes another cheesey list to beat it (though I'd say MCs are easier to counter than, say, mech eldar or asscannon spam).

[Ezeykle]

I couldn't agree more.

[Benandorf]

Well, to put it in perspective, at least we're better off than either Inquisition army against new Orks.  They both get out-shot at range, and both get out-combated once you get in range.  Sisters have lots of flamers, but if you're that close to a big mob, you're not gonna kill enough anyways.

So we at least have a chance.  I can't see even a single chance for a Grey Knight force.  Out-meleed, out-shot, much higher numbers, and faster...  Ouch.

[maniacs1]

Well, to put it in perspective, at least we're better off than either Inquisition army against new Orks.  They both get out-shot at range, and both get out-combated once you get in range.  Sisters have lots of flamers, but if you're that close to a big mob, you're not gonna kill enough anyways.

So we at least have a chance.  I can't see even a single chance for a Grey Knight force.  Out-meleed, out-shot, much higher numbers, and faster...  Ouch.

These armies are where Orks were last year. Subject to a gaming philosophy that has moved on.

With grey knights I suppose you'd just get stuck in woulddn't you. Be a hell of a fight!