Topic: Just learned about the new Orks...

[Lazarus15]

I don't want to have to use a specialized ork-killing-army every time I face them, so feader-tendrils is out of the question. Might try to proxy it once to try it out though

Yeah I always spend a grand 16 points per list to add this to two squads of 8 stealers.  More games than not, this has proved fantastic.  But again, try it out and if you run them together (horm + genestealers + Winged Tyrant) and you will like what you get. 

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

Why? Stealers hit on 3s anyway.

[Kiefatar]

T4 is meaningless against the horror that is the dakka-fex. Nid's have plenty of ways of stopping the green tide, which I feel will be far less common than you'd think.

[Lazarus15]

Why? Stealers hit on 3s anyway.

So the 32-48 hormagaunts that I run in two to three squads (16 each) that run in front of or next to the genestealers hit on three's.  It is actually highly effective, if you run it right and have the discipline not to split up your force to numerous targets. 

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

It's got a 2" range, if your genestealers are that close you might as well charge with them.

[GoreLord]

It's got a 2" range, if your genestealers are that close you might as well charge with them.

im sure charging the 'stealers in with the HG's is exactly what Lazarus is talking about. against orks with mobs numbering between 20 - 30, seems like hitting them with 'stealers and HG's that hit on 3's would be devastating.

and spending 16 points in a tourney list for this tactic isnt bad either. means that everything in your army has the ability to hit on 3's against whatever army you're facing. and for cheap!  im gonna try this out 

[coredump]

It's got a 2" range, if your genestealers are that close you might as well charge with them

If *any* Hgaunt in the brood is within 2" of *any* stealer with FT, then the entire HG brood becomes 33% more effective.

You can either charge them together, or at different targets close to each other, or trail a couple of guants so you are still in range.

[maniacs1]

One of the problems for big mobs is making room for them. If he feilds big mobs use template weopons. The deathspitters are a good start but what about the barbed strangler? Do wonders against the smaller, specialised mobs.

Also remember you hit first so maybe go for big mobs of gaunts in range of a synapse creature.

I play Orks and believe me I've realised some nightmare solutions for them.

[Benandorf]

Want to see numbers for termagants shooting and charging equal number of boyz?  They are one of the few units that actually gets close, but still can't win point-for-point.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Then don't play it point for point. Gang up and use your speed to your advantage. This is called tactics.

[Benandorf]

Then don't play it point for point. Gang up and use your speed to your advantage. This is called tactics.

When there's a wall of boyz, you don't get that choice.  If you hit one side of the wall, then the rest of the wall will devour you.  Or you can do not enough to the entire line.  It's a lose/lose situation.  In other words, it's pretty much what tyranids do, but better.

Thanks for the flame, too.  I appreciate it.

[coredump]

Though it is not my intent... a lot of what I do on this board is disagree with Benendorf...

So when i am here agreeing with him....


tgants are almost as good as shoota orks in a shoot out.
Unfortunately, they are *much* worse at melee.... 

We will not be able to out swarm the orks....

[maniacs1]

What the hell do you think spore mines will do to Orks? Tickle them!

The barbed strangler will rip chunks out of their mobs. On a fex it will instant kill nobs and flashgitz. Remember they don't get the 'feel no pain' rule to insta kills.

They are slow. Give them distractions! Flyers on a wing, big throw away units that WON'T run way out in front. They won't win but they will get to hit first and it will delay the rear units for another turn. Once Orks are down to ten men they are vulnerable.

Almost always when Orks get into a melee they will have to take casualties before hitting back. Get their numbers down. A 1000 pts force consisting of boyz is an intimidating threat but you  try hiding it, moving it or avoiding cover to keep up the speed.

Better still deploy on one side of the table. The further wing will almost never get into range.

[coredump]

You are missing something....

Those 1000 points means 166 orks.

166

Sure a few die to BS or a random sporemine. Heck, lets say 50 die. (not a chance it is that high...)

You still have 116 hitting shooting, and then hitting your lines.

[maniacs1]

It's a nasty number and xtreme. Cause thay will probably have to stretch right across the table to fit in the deployment. If you deploy on one half of your table then one half of the Orc army will have to stomp over to you. I don't think some of it would even get to charge.

I've deployed small Ork hordes in comparison and it's difficult finding room for them.

I think it's one thing to feild such a horde and another for it to be effective. You won't kill them all. For a start templates will easily play merry hell with it. The terrain will impede some movement. I don't think a 5+ save in cover at cost to speed is worth it with Orks. Theres no weopons to deal with the fexes. A tough rhinofex will hold up a mob easily and then send it packing. You'll want nobs and PKs to deal with them. 

There are tactics for slowing down a mob a reducing it's charge. Use swarms as a picket line. The boyz will kill it but you reduce their movent for another turn. Another turn where you can still do template damage. A swarm is 10 pts with 3 wounds. A 30 pts sacrifice to slow down a mob.

I'm not saying it's academic they can be easily beaten. Orks to me are now no tougher than Tau, Elder, Marines etc but their chances of winnig are higher now.

[Banned Solorg]

It is important to keep in mind that Orks are basically THE ultimate enemy of humanity in 40K since the Rogue Trader days.  It only makes sense that they should be the strongest fighters in the game.  I mean, this is a race bred for just one solitary purpose: War.  The Nids have been probably the strongest for a long time, but GW has lately decided to rectify things by tipping the scales back towards Orks as it was always intended to be.

Nids will always be quite strong, and still will give Space Marines and Eldar headaches, but Orks have always been meant to be just a *little* bit better.

Not unbeatable, mind you, but gone are the days of just being able to swarm up and take them out.  It will take tactical thinking and an army that is carefully matched for the task.

All other armies (just about) have had this experience with Orks, I think, under 3rd Ed Orks.  Now, the lesson for the Nids is the same - if you get too close, yer gonna get krumped.

As I said, race bred for war.  It only makes sense.

Fight on!
Solorg
a Ork

[Kiefatar]

1000 points = 166 orks = An Illegal list and a easily killed one to boot. Any armor, 1 T8 Carnie could hold them up indefinately and every frag missile and blast marker/template weapon would have a field day, they would have no weapons options or long range firepower, or speed save a dubious at best fleet once a turn.

Seriously Benandorf, Coredump... Play a few games, like a dozen before you really start poisoning the well.

You are rarely going to see green tides at the level in which you predict, and sure orks on a point for point basis are the strongest infantry in the game... whatever, it doesn't mean a thing if you don't use them right, and taking huge squads of 20-30 means that your sacraficing a lot of mobility for dumb resilience, which is false resilience at best. They won't be able to hug cover or stay out of LOS like small elite and mobile squads, so that your allowing your opponent full use of his firepower. This means far more than what you'd expect, even flashlights are going to light up the orks.

Even a PK Nob in a mob of 30 shootas (which I'm still not convinced is legal) may never see combat as there are too many boyz in the way. Kill zones can be manipulated to deny you the best of yours, but inflict a lot of damage on a mob by hitting only half of it at a time. Sure, whats 8 orks out of 20 mean, except it's functionally all of the orks in the killzone providing you no attacks in return. Sure after consolidation you may inflict some pain, but then your talking about another 6 orks, so you have 14 dead before even swinging back.

Besides, there are lots of really nice toys in the new ork force, and all of them though aren't expensive, definately aren't cheap. Your big 15man loota squads can at most put a serious hurt on one squad at a time (assuming the opponent even lets you), and will only likely do it once before they are summarily executed by the enemy for the crime of having guns bigger than them.

Deathspitters, Barbed Stranglers and Dakka Fexxes, all comon in 'Nid lists, will take giant chunks out of ork mobs. Even in a straightup fight the nids have a decent chance with Hormagaunts with their 3" contributory attacks and higher initiative. If you can get them to hit on 3s with those tendril things, a hormagaunts squad can easily cleave through their number of orks in one round and take very little if any punishment back.

[Apocalypse]

1000 points = 166 orks = An Illegal list and a easily killed one to boot. Any armor, 1 T8 Carnie could hold them up indefinately and every frag missile and blast marker/template weapon would have a field day, they would have no weapons options or long range firepower, or speed save a dubious at best fleet once a turn.

Seriously Benandorf, Coredump... Play a few games, like a dozen before you really start poisoning the well.

You are rarely going to see green tides at the level in which you predict, and sure orks on a point for point basis are the strongest infantry in the game... whatever, it doesn't mean a thing if you don't use them right, and taking huge squads of 20-30 means that your sacraficing a lot of mobility for dumb resilience, which is false resilience at best. They won't be able to hug cover or stay out of LOS like small elite and mobile squads, so that your allowing your opponent full use of his firepower. This means far more than what you'd expect, even flashlights are going to light up the orks.

Even a PK Nob in a mob of 30 shootas (which I'm still not convinced is legal) may never see combat as there are too many boyz in the way. Kill zones can be manipulated to deny you the best of yours, but inflict a lot of damage on a mob by hitting only half of it at a time. Sure, whats 8 orks out of 20 mean, except it's functionally all of the orks in the killzone providing you no attacks in return. Sure after consolidation you may inflict some pain, but then your talking about another 6 orks, so you have 14 dead before even swinging back.

Besides, there are lots of really nice toys in the new ork force, and all of them though aren't expensive, definately aren't cheap. Your big 15man loota squads can at most put a serious hurt on one squad at a time (assuming the opponent even lets you), and will only likely do it once before they are summarily executed by the enemy for the crime of having guns bigger than them.

Deathspitters, Barbed Stranglers and Dakka Fexxes, all comon in 'Nid lists, will take giant chunks out of ork mobs. Even in a straightup fight the nids have a decent chance with Hormagaunts with their 3" contributory attacks and higher initiative. If you can get them to hit on 3s with those tendril things, a hormagaunts squad can easily cleave through their number of orks in one round and take very little if any punishment back.

Its really to bad that the stranglweb isnt actually legal, a unit of 8 flamers or so would definately add some kick in our favour. I have not yet fought the new orks, but have read as much as I can on them, and must admit that behind the hands of a master, they will be VERY DIFFICULT to beat, But I have to agree that Hormagaunts and feeder tendrils sound like a great place to start. Counter assault and piecemeal would be the way to go. spinegaunts or rippers for stick units, Hormies and stealers for the flank. Cutting off their fire lanes would be alot easier with that many ork units on the board, something should be getting screwed over almost all the time.  Stick and flank, cut off fire lanes, feed them cheap amphetamine parrot troops to tie their scoring units up. Be selective on your targets. Take out whole units at a time, or at the very least, take them down enough that they cant use their mob rules, and at least you get half VP's for them. if 1000 points of orks = 166 models,   1000 points in Gaunts is what, 100 Hormagaunts, or 160 termagaunts. I would take 100 Hormagaunts over 166 orks any day.  so theres my answer. 166 orks< 100 Hormagaunts. (we get all of our attacks within 3, and have better charge range on them. (unless they are using buggies, at which point they aint gonna have 166 orks..)

[YuenglingDragon]

1000 points = 166 orks = An Illegal list and a easily killed one to boot. Any armor, 1 T8 Carnie could hold them up indefinately and every frag missile and blast marker/template weapon would have a field day, they would have no weapons options or long range firepower, or speed save a dubious at best fleet once a turn.

I don't think that was meant to be completely literal, merely a representation of how cheap these new Orks are.  But you can run 120 Boyz and still leave 276 points for an HQ and wargear.  You ought to be able to cram in enough Rokkits and PK's to be alright against most things.  AV14 is a problem but it always will be.  And though they may not have incredible speed with an average fleet roll they can move 21.5" in 3 turns allowing for a charge unless you're pretty far back in your own deployment area.  I don't usually get a better than 3rd turn charge with the majority of my Tyranid army so I think that qualifies as bloody well fast enough.

And there is no such thing as a T8 Carnifex.

Deathspitters, Barbed Stranglers and Dakka Fexxes, all comon in 'Nid lists, will take giant chunks out of ork mobs. Even in a straightup fight the nids have a decent chance with Hormagaunts with their 3" contributory attacks and higher initiative. If you can get them to hit on 3s with those tendril things, a hormagaunts squad can easily cleave through their number of orks in one round and take very little if any punishment back.

Even if you have Feeder Tendrils in your army (which almost nobody actually does).  120 points of HG's kills 6.6 orks.  The remaining orks kill 7.5 HG's.  That's a losing fight and the HG's are being given the benefit of something that costs additional points that I didn't count toward the total number of orks.

Maybe, as you say, the green tide list will not be seen with much regularity.  Maybe we're all underestimating the amount of damage that can be done in our shooting phase.  None of that has anything to do with the fact that, point for point, Ork Boyz are the best infantry in the game.

[Apocalypse]

1000 points = 166 orks = An Illegal list and a easily killed one to boot. Any armor, 1 T8 Carnie could hold them up indefinately and every frag missile and blast marker/template weapon would have a field day, they would have no weapons options or long range firepower, or speed save a dubious at best fleet once a turn.

I don't think that was meant to be completely literal, merely a representation of how cheap these new Orks are.  But you can run 120 Boyz and still leave 276 points for an HQ and wargear.  You ought to be able to cram in enough Rokkits and PK's to be alright against most things.  AV14 is a problem but it always will be.  And though they may not have incredible speed with an average fleet roll they can move 21.5" in 3 turns allowing for a charge unless you're pretty far back in your own deployment area.  I don't usually get a better than 3rd turn charge with the majority of my Tyranid army so I think that qualifies as bloody well fast enough.

And there is no such thing as a T8 Carnifex.

Deathspitters, Barbed Stranglers and Dakka Fexxes, all comon in 'Nid lists, will take giant chunks out of ork mobs. Even in a straightup fight the nids have a decent chance with Hormagaunts with their 3" contributory attacks and higher initiative. If you can get them to hit on 3s with those tendril things, a hormagaunts squad can easily cleave through their number of orks in one round and take very little if any punishment back.

Even if you have Feeder Tendrils in your army (which almost nobody actually does).  120 points of HG's kills 6.6 orks.  The remaining orks kill 7.5 HG's.  That's a losing fight and the HG's are being given the benefit of something that costs additional points that I didn't count toward the total number of orks.

Maybe, as you say, the green tide list will not be seen with much regularity.  Maybe we're all underestimating the amount of damage that can be done in our shooting phase.  None of that has anything to do with the fact that, point for point, Ork Boyz are the best infantry in the game.

Since we have established that they have point for point the best troops in the game, maybe we should be thinking about this on a grander scale.  What about the army as a whole? Can anyone point out where the army is LACKING instead of where it is STRONG? All armies have units that are amphetamine parrot on their own, but when combined equal death all over the place.  Maybe we are going about this the wrong way?