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Author Topic: ''Fixing'' Lictors?  (Read 7604 times)

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Offline DJBtod

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2007, 01:55:43 PM »
You're right. 3+ Invulnerable ''dodge'' save (it deserves a 3+),

Lictors are not evasive, they are stealthy. Big difference. And 3+ invulnerable is WAY over powered. Assassins are masters of agility and evasion, they are suped up on drugs, and trained like no tomorrow, and they dont even have a 3+ dodge save.

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Offline YuenglingDragon

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2007, 03:11:45 PM »
And it's not about rediculing it, else you should have named the thread differantly and put it in another section.
Can't it be both?

It does need a fix.  It doesn't make it points back and it's rules are too restrictive.
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Offline Khodexus

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2007, 03:58:34 AM »
Not every unit in the game is about making it's points back.  Some units are about tying up other units, or taking hits, allowing your OTHER units to make their points back for them.  The Lictor is intended to be a disruption unit, and it performs that job beautifully.  It is also very good for a heavy reserves army/mission, and there are alot of things which it can kill just fine with it's current rules.

If it causes your enemy to deploy badly, just to prevent it from deep striking, then it's done it's job already.  If it managed to take out some heavy weapons troopers or a light vehicle, then it's also done it's job just fine.  I could possibly use one more attack, but anything else would be overkill, and/or broken.
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Offline overmind2000

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2007, 04:05:21 AM »
Just to throw something into the mix here, what are peoples views of our other lictor
the death leaper
not used him myself, but he has some interesting changes to the deepstrike rule

Offline Apoc_69

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2007, 11:22:09 AM »
Just to throw something into the mix here, what are peoples views of our other lictor
the death leaper
not used him myself, but he has some interesting changes to the deepstrike rule
I looked at him a few times, and have considered taking him to a few fights just to check it out. I think it would preform very well, but with the same hinderences as the other lictors. ( I still love lictors despite what anyone says) He would be interesting to try out to say the least.
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Offline Benandorf

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2007, 11:51:50 AM »
The problem with the Death Leaper is that he is even weaker stat-wise than the Lictor (if I remember him correctly, at least, he has a lower armor save or something like that).  And more expensive...
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Offline YuenglingDragon

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2007, 12:03:56 PM »
Not every unit in the game is about making it's points back.  Some units are about tying up other units, or taking hits, allowing your OTHER units to make their points back for them.  The Lictor is intended to be a disruption unit, and it performs that job beautifully.  It is also very good for a heavy reserves army/mission, and there are alot of things which it can kill just fine with it's current rules.
I'm sorry I wasn't being specific in my criteria.  Lictors don't make their points back via kills (quantifiable) or disruption ability (less quantifiable) in my experience.

We can argue whether they need the fix or not all day.  And the end of it GW won't do anything for a few years anyway.
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Offline Lonewolf

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2007, 12:21:06 PM »
The problem with the Death Leaper is that he is even weaker stat-wise than the Lictor (if I remember him correctly, at least, he has a lower armor save or something like that).  And more expensive...

 His save is one worse, which really dosent matter anyway, for this he gets another attack + better deepstrike rules. I think deathy is a good buy, but a bit expensive and eats up a whole slot.


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Offline XCrusaderguy01

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2007, 12:23:31 PM »
Where exactly are his rules?

Offline Apoc_69

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2007, 12:26:16 PM »
 [/quote lonewolf]
I think deathy is a good buy, but a bit expensive and eats up a whole slot.
[/quote] <--- my quotes arent working, and my html sucks..

in comparison to other lictors though, he is not much more expensive points wise, and though the lower save does suck, how often have you made your 5+ in cc with a lictor anyway? for me, not often. they appear, they pop their target, and if they are still alive then they pick a fight or harass something else. Death leapers survivability is hindered a bit, but overall, lictors survivability blows to start with, so its not a huge loss. the extra attack does make a difference though, just not a huge one. he would still need to combine charge for maximum effectiveness. (IMO of course)



*edit**     http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/special-characters/4/    this is what you are looking for.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 12:30:18 PM by Apoc_69 »
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Offline Orunlu

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2007, 12:29:58 PM »
The Death Leaper is nice and Benandorf is correct his save is worse however he gains 1 more attack and can deepstrike anywhere. Is he worth it for  his price probably not. However if your a fan of Lictors this he makes it so you can field 4 of em Yay!


heres the link to his rules

http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/special-characters/4/
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 12:44:24 PM by Orunlu »
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Offline YuenglingDragon

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2007, 12:55:00 PM »
Your quotes didn't work because you have two end-quotes.  The "/" denotes the end of the html.
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Offline weenog42

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2007, 06:47:12 PM »
I think the problem is with what role the Lictor is supposed to have.  Its seems like Raveners can already do most of what a Lictor does, so far as deepstriking and disrupting shooters.  Genestealers or MCs are better as simple cc-troops.  So what does a Lictor really contribute that no other unit can?

Making the Lictor more durable, more offensive, more independent, or just cheaper doesn't really change that problem, it would just make him a more attractive alternative to choices that already exist.

The Lictor does have a few unique abilities, such as the Pheremone Trail and Feeder Tendrils, but neither of those really give him much definition.

Offline Apoc_69

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2007, 01:03:49 PM »
I think the problem is with what role the Lictor is supposed to have.  Its seems like Raveners can already do most of what a Lictor does, so far as deepstriking and disrupting shooters.  Genestealers or MCs are better as simple cc-troops.  So what does a Lictor really contribute that no other unit can?

Making the Lictor more durable, more offensive, more independent, or just cheaper doesn't really change that problem, it would just make him a more attractive alternative to choices that already exist.

The Lictor does have a few unique abilities, such as the Pheremone Trail and Feeder Tendrils, but neither of those really give him much definition.

Other then the fact that NOTHING else in the nid army can deep strike into terrain and essentially be safe from dropping in off the board, there isnt much. (this alone is enough for me.) does your opponents battle plan go haywire (at least a little ) when you pull the raveners out of your case and set them on the table? Mine dont, but every time I pull out a lictor, they swear at me.  Hell, when I dont use lictors, I still pull the model out and slap it on the table as if waiting for deployment, just to mess with my opponents head a little. :P They work even when I dont bring them (which isnt very often)
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Offline YuenglingDragon

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2007, 01:34:17 PM »
Well Apoc, I'm glad that it either works for you or you have dumb opponents.  I'm sure the latter isn't true, right? 

I can tell you without a single bit of exaggeration that after the experience I've had with Lictors my friends would literally laugh at me if I brought it out of my case.

I think the problem is with what role the Lictor is supposed to have.  Its seems like Raveners can already do most of what a Lictor does, so far as deepstriking and disrupting shooters.  Genestealers or MCs are better as simple cc-troops.  So what does a Lictor really contribute that no other unit can?
I think GW is confused about the Lictors role.  If it's supposed to get into combat and disrupt enemy movement and shooting it should be tougher and better able to stick it out.  But instead they give it hit and run.  I don't want it to hit and run!  I want to disrupt shooting!

It might be nice if we had a few choices of abilities.  Furious Charge or Feel No Pain would be cool additions.
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Offline Benandorf

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2007, 02:27:28 PM »
It might be nice if we had a few choices of abilities.  Furious Charge or Feel No Pain would be cool additions.

Feel no pain really doesn't fit with the fluff, but Furious Charge?  Sure, it fits, but why in god's name would you want even higher Strength and Initiative?

Lictors need a severe price cut or a 4+ save and 3 wounds.  At that point they're a slightly weaker BL without a retinue and special rules to deploy.
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Offline XCrusaderguy01

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2007, 02:49:21 PM »
Lictors need a severe price cut or a 4+ save and 3 wounds.  At that point they're a slightly weaker BL without a retinue and special rules to deploy.

Not to mention that its missing power weapons. Even though the lictor has high STR, and rending, his low number of attacks prevent these from being all that scary. He will average maybe 2 rending hits per game, and the rest of his attacks generally get saved by my marines. The broodlords combination of more attacks, rending, AND S6 power weapons is what makes him so scary.

Its also worth mentioning that the broodlord at least has a chance against hidden power fists. When I know my opponent is using a lictor, I'm careful to have a hidden fist nearby any likely placed for him to appear. So even with a better save and more wounds, the lictor will still be no better off against the thing that kills it best. At least it would keep him from getting rolled by regular tac squads... :)

Offline Apoc_69

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2007, 02:58:04 PM »
Well Apoc, I'm glad that it either works for you or you have dumb opponents.  I'm sure the latter isn't true, right? 
It could be a little bit of both. lol. the majority of my opponents are solid players, I guess I use them pretty well then. (not to toot my own horn)


*edit*   oops
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 04:12:08 PM by Apoc_69 »
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Offline tegeus-Cromis

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2007, 04:07:40 PM »
The problem with justifying the Lictor's cost in terms of its disruptive potential is that there are so many armies against which it simply won't be disrupting anything. Anything mech doesn't care where your Lictor appears. Same goes for anything seriously CC oriented (a BT or BA army will just laugh at the Lictor and consider it free points), a shooty army that relies on numerous cheap units (IG gunline), or even an opposing nid army. Sure it can be great, but in an all-comers list, can you afford the possibility that it will be useless?

Offline weenog42

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Re: ''Fixing'' Lictors?
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2007, 06:28:29 PM »
Right, Lictors arent any better at disrupting gunlines than a Ravener is.  Theyre a slightly more powerful unit, and they can deepstrike in cover, but not worth the price increase.  With their speed, gargoyles can even pull this off.

So to reiterate my earlier post, the Lictor right now doesn't have a particular role.  It seems like GW wants him to be a backstabbing, stealthy kind of unit.  Jump out of nowhere and get a few attacks in and contribute feeder tendrils to an ongoing assault, then hit-and-run and do the same elsewhere, sowing chaos throughout the enemy lines and ellusively avoiding being spotted.  In other words, it's The Predator.  So what rules would encourage that kind of gameplay?  That's how I see the ideal "fix."

 


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