Topic: what is the best hive tyrant

[GenestealerAlpha]

Umm the VC on a S6 Hive Tyrant is S8.  6's to glance, 6's to kill.  Thats to kill not destroy a weapon, or stun, etc.  Your math is way off as well.

I have 3 shots and a 68% chance per shot to hit.  I average 2 hits per turn.  That gives me a 34% chance to glance.  Far from bad against the toughest armor in the game.  Followed by a 17% chance to destroy, but a 51% chance to otherwise muck it up.

Thats a 100% chance to destroy it in 6 turns.

Also on either side of my Hive Tyrant stand two nasty TL barbed strangler toting carnifex's pumping out S8 templates.  Now we can mathammer and do averages.  It doesn't figure in when I roll 3D6 for regeneration and roll 3 6's.  Nor when I fire the venom cannon and roll 3 1's.

Thats the nature of the dice so I otherwise ignore mathammer, and just put it on the table and play.

[Benandorf]

Except, for each shot, you have a .66 chance.  Times .17 chance to glance.  Times .17 chance to destroy.  Do that math.  There, you have a 1.9% chance per shot to destroy it.  So my math was a bit off there (I'm not sure how), but with 18 shots, you still only have a 34.3% chance to destroy the Land Raider if you shoot it 6 turns.

For debates of what's the best for the points, you can't figure in godly rolls or amphetamine parrotty roles, because they are unpredictable.  What you DO figure in is the statistical chance to do something.  How do you have 3 rolls for regen, are you just having your fexes take that much damage?

Ignore mathhammer all you want, but it simply makes you completely impotent in these sorts of debates.  I can tell you that my one genestealer wipes out a whole squad of Grey Knights, and therefor you only ever need one genestealer for your anti-MEQ.  However, it's wrong, because it's a completely unlikely situation.  If I tell you that 10 genestealers will do an average of 7.442 wounds on the charge, then you can tell how well genestealers will stack up against other units in an anti-MEQ situation.  Averages and probability tells you a lot more about how good a unit is at certain roles for its points than "This thing did ALL THIS:".

[YuenglingDragon]

3 x .667 = 2
2 x .1667 = .333
.333 x .1667 = .0556

That's the way the math really works with a Venom Cannon against AV14.  You have a near 6% to kill it and a 16.667% chance to do something other than shake or stun.  You have a 100% chance to do something to it in one of the 6 turns but only a 36% chance to actually destroy it during the course of the game.

Of course, that also assumes that your Tyrant and guard don't get shredded by 300+ points of enemies.

I don't think in terms of mathhammer once I get on the table, but when we're talking about this thing is better than that statistics is a valuable tool.  It's an important part of list building, too.

[Benandorf]

Actually, multiply those you got, yuengling, it's only 33.36% chance ^_~

And that's also assuming you get 6 turns of shooting.  Your opponent could just send a big squad of conscripts at you and keep you in combat for about, say, 4 turns.  And then you have a 300 point unit that did nothing but eat 3 point models most the game.  And probably you lost a guard or two in the fray; the funny thing about having 3 sets of lash whips is that you give up lots of attacks to only be fully effective against things with at least 4 attacks.  Of which there are very few; Flyrants, C'tan, some Chaos "Heros", and Archons.

[Smellofwetdog]

Warhammer, like any game involving dice and stat lines, is all about statistical averages.  Sure you can argue against bean counters like myself and Benandorf and YD that when things are on the board it's a whole different world.  And statistically you are right some portion of the time since anything can happen within a certain set of numbers.  But since the game is about statistics you have to accept that for every totally awesome amazing super lucky hit glance and destroyed roll you got all strung together you also have just earned 7 more games out of 10 where you wont do anything and get horribly beaten.  So how many games did that setup do nothing for you for it to destroy 5 tanks in a game, or bring down a monolith? 

Sure surprising fun things occur in warhammer, that's why they use dice and statistics, so we don't know what's going to happen each time.  Trying to pass of a unit as highly effective when the numbers tell us something drastically different is just silly.  Additionally, we don't play your opponents so maybe that works for you, but I don't think I would touch it with a 10 foot pole unless I had a very specific purpose in mind for it. 

[GenestealerAlpha]

Well first off as my only synapse it does exactly what I want it to do every game which is survive.  Heck check the GW site and you can see how to keep hormagaunts in synapse untill after they've assaulted. 

However I have played with this Tyrant exactly 7 times.  It has not earned it's points back every game.  It does however earn anywhere from 75-125% of it's points each game.  I would say worst game I've had out of it with getting horrible rolls was I only killed 2 dreads, 1 in HtH.  Thats as far as points go because it blew weapons off, and stunned numerous other vehicles that game.

So the better question is does it earn it's points back on paper or in function?  I mean I don't get any point for not killing a Leman Russ.  However if I keep the Leman Russ stunned or shaken for 6 turns thats worth something.
When I don't lose my only synapse every game thats worth it.

Would I like to run 2 Tyrants and maybe 3 units of warriors?  Sure.  But it's $$$ and thats the one thing broke college students don't have.  So thats what I run and it has proven on the table to do exactly what I need it to do.

And just a note sending a bunch of cheap units at this Tyrant to "tie him up" doesn't work too well.  Number one a LD5 unit has serious issues trying to assault a Tyranid with the Horror.  As well Tyranids are an assault army so you have to go through my army to get to the Tyrant.  Only way to "tie him up" is with a deep striking unit like Terminators which won't last long against it.

Otherwise your conscripts have to survive hormagaunts, genestealers, and carnifex barbed stranglers to even try to assault the Tyrant.

[Benandorf]

That's why you have a Commisar and/or vox.  Suddenly that ld5 becomes much higher.

Alright, it killed two dreadnaughts.  Because your opponent is a moron for sending them at him in the first place, but that's a different story.  How about this: My flyrant (143 points) many games kills more than his points, and could take out two Dreadnaughts without any problem at all.  None.  And he can get close faster than 6" a turn.

So you'd waste genestealers on conscripts?  That's probably the worst idea in this thread.  It will take easily 3 turns to kill them all, and then you have a 160 point unit having killed 120 points of conscripts.  Instead of that 160 point unit ripping through important stuff.

You know, you could save the points off of that tyrant and buy yourself more synapse.  If you cut it down, you could get yourself 3 zoanthropes and still have a good dakkatyrant, or even a snipertyrant.

You give it the role of "survival" by choice, and then flaunt that it does its role perfectly.  3 zoanthropes and a dakkatyrant would be as survivable or better, put out more fire, and give more synapse.  For less than your one unit.

I know $$$ is a problem, but if you don't have the models to play good set-ups at high levels, then play lower levels.

It's great that you've had good luck with it; keep it if you wish.  I'm just saying that it is far from optimal for its points (the points could be spent better on any number of things), and requesting you don't suggest to other newbies to use it.

[lt_sparky]

dam. i thought this was going to be peacefull little thread. i think both u guys have valid points on certain occasions i would love to have a 300+ pt hive tyrant to kick the amphetamine parrot out of anything that comes near, while other times i will pray for an angel (big scary scally flyrant) to reign fast synaptic death on my oponents. but the point is that most of the time you cant have both and you have to make descion, now weather u take quality over quantity is a choice tht you as a player have to make, you cant play with somthing that dosent appeal to you this is suposed to be a fun game anyway.

this brings me to another point, dont take every piece of advise you get from this site word for word. im not saying its bad or anything (i wish i could be as good as u guys). its just you have to play the game not someone else, it woulnt be as fun if evrey single person had the same army, people with different tastes give the game an interesting twist.
if i disrespected anyone with this dont be mad i didnt mean to.

[YuenglingDragon]

Actually, multiply those you got, yuengling, it's only 33.36% chance ^_~

Ok, ok Mister Clever Boy.  You win.  I was tired.
---
Alpha, we know we aren't preaching absolute gospel here, but were are using probability to prove valid logical arguments.

As to your argument of quality v. quantity, we are trying top show that your set-up lacks both.  And that's the problem.  The single synapse creature forces you to keep all your creatures that require Synapse to function well nearby.  I can split my force up to take multiple objectives or adapt to my opponents deployment.  I don't see how you can do that very effectively.

I know cash can be tight as a university student, I'm a recent grad myself.  Let me give you some advice, though.  Get a credit card and put  a few hundred bucks on it.  It'll help your army and your credit score (as long as you make your payments on time).

[GenestealerAlpha]

Please don't twist what I say.  I have over 100 little bugs in my army my point was the conscripts would have to survive those before getting anywhere near my Tyrant.  I never said I would just send genestealers into 100 conscripts.  But between hormagaunts, gaunts, and genestealers those conscripts would never reach my Tyrant.

I also never said this was the perfect tyrant only what I run and have had good luck with.  Also he didn't send Dreads at my Tyrant.  I killed them with the venom cannon and TL deathspitter.  Worst thing that could happen if someone ran it is say "Well it survived but I'd rather have..." which is how you really come up with an army you like. 

It's not like people are betting $200 a game and if someone took an untested army to a tournament well thats just a bad idea even if it's a "good list".

Also I play at 2000pts.  So a expensive single Tyrant still leaves plenty of everything else since I don't have any more synapse.  For example if I made my Tyrant cheaper and added 3 Zoathropes I could not make my Tyrant cheap enough to offset the costs of the Zoanthropes.  So do I want an efficient tyrant as my only synapse for 300pts or do I want 3 individual synapses for 200+pts on top of a cheap Tyrant that might get lascannoned to death on turn 2?

To each his own.  I just find the table is the best place to experiment a unit has suprised me more than once and made me want to chunk it against the wall more than once.

[Benandorf]

Yes, you could make the tyrant cheap enough.  You can fit in a Sniperfex for less than 131 points, which is what you are left with after 3 zoanthropes with Warp Blast and Synapse.

I'd rather take a "good list" that is untested to a tournement than a bad list that I've spent years playing.  Just because list-making is a HUGE part of 40k, and a good list has a huge advantage over a bad list, regardless of the experience of a player with a certain list.  You can overcome this disadvantage, of course, but why make yourself?

[g00gle5]

Benadorf, as much as I agree with a lot of what you say, you come across as quite disrespectful as well. Whether it is your intent or not, maybe you should take a little bit of time to see how others might interpret what you say.

You can overcome this disadvantage, of course, but why make yourself?

Because a lot of people appreciate that kind of play for a start. If you look around the boards you will find a lot of people that don't like to play with an 'optimum' list and have great success with it. Lazarus towards the end of 3rd edition Eldar started using units most of us would deem pathetic and I know Rasmus has often fielded a very differnt list consdiering all the options he has available. There are a thousand reasons why but I  won't list them all.

Benadorf, you seem a very competent and capable tyranid player and I respect a lot of what you have to say, but as I have said it would be nice if you took a little longer to consider how you can come across. Just to let you know, due to something earlier you said in the post, I run the Deciever and a Monolith in my 1500 torunament list and have had great success with it.

I know cash can be tight as a university student, I'm a recent grad myself.  Let me give you some advice, though.  Get a credit card and put  a few hundred bucks on it.  It'll help your army and your credit score (as long as you make your payments on time).

Personally as a University student, I wouldn't recommend this. But to each their own, aye?

[Benandorf]

Sure, but he was talking about tournament, as was I in that statement.  In that case, you play to win.

It can be fun to try out new stuff, but in an omptimized list, or as "the best hive tyrant" as this thread is about, his build has no place.

More power to you if you manage to run C'tan and monolith in 1500 point list.  I'm not a "pro" at necrons by any means, so take my statements on them with a grain of salt.

You're right, I probably came off a bit over-bearing and condescending.  But I don't want a newbie to spend the $110 it would cost for this unit and then find out it's not that great for its points.   Or over-all, points ignored.

[Smellofwetdog]

40k is highly circumstantial and regional according to where you play.  I usually play with a small group, and we play each other over and over.  I doubt I would do well if I were just tossed into open play at a big GW sponsored store or tournament. 
What and how you play depends on your opponent and what they bring a lot of the time, terrain, objectives you play, for lots of variables.  Maybe your huge beast works where you play, but even in my small gaming group I saw the weakness behind huge powerful jack of all trades units in 4th ed.  We're not just making up these units because they sound good, these are tested units from hundreds of games by dozens of people, and they're also the best on paper statistically. 
New ideas are the lifeblood of any tactical situation including warhammer, so don't feel like your ideas are being rejected another point of view is always a good thing.  At the same time don't dismiss the advice given back to you as just "statistical".  We're all trying to swap ideas and experience in order to improve everyone's game since the end goal is devouring the galaxy... 

[GenestealerAlpha]

Well I've been running this Tyrant since I started playing Tyranids.  I've run him with 2 guards, 1 guards, Scything talons instead of TL deathspitters, and various biomorphs.  From a little over 200pts to a little over 300pts.  I've run it in an all genestealer army, to my genestealer/hormagaunt list.  So my list has changed and other units have changed but pretty much I trim the Tyrant down if I need too otherwise I keep him like he is.

There's nothing special about him.  He's a shooty tyrant with guards.  Many other players find this to be a great unit I'm not the only one I know who runs this style of Tyrant.

But I run him at 2000pts.  Not 1500pts or 1000pts. 

[Benandorf]

Have you ever used a simple snipertyrant or dakkatyrant without spending 300 points on him?  Or just a flyrant (wings, 2x ST, TS)?  If not, try one of those, and then tell me that your guy is 2-3 times better than any of them in the role a HT is supposed to play (picking on hard targets that can't kill him).

[GenestealerAlpha]

No I haven't but thats because of the reasons I've already stated.  I don't have the ability to run 2 Hive Tyrants. I also lack other synapse options.  So a weaker HT that may die turn 3 would not do me any good at the moment.

[Benandorf]

Proxy your expensive one for a cheapo one, is what I meant.

I have never had a HT die by turn 3.  The only way to have that happen is to throw yourself into the firing lane of a bunch of Darklances/Lascannons/Asscannons.

[GenestealerAlpha]

I play against a lot of shooty space marines.  The kind that burn up a 5 wound carnifex in a single turn.

But I am going to proxy a cheaper tyrant in my new list.  Which is still low on synapse but has a unique strategy behind it I won't discuss untill I've tested it on the table.  I think it going to be devastating however.

[Sanctjud]

Genestealeralpha, do you frequent the GW store in Harvard Square Massachusetts?


Well, having that huge point sink, makes up its points regardless of what happens, if they die, they soaked up fire, if he hurts anything with guns/cc it's a bonus.

For people who are unprepared they will not know what to do with the squad.  That unit can still affect experienced players, do they want to deal with the squad or do something else.

It's an interesting unit, instead of just another All genestealer army, all swarm, Godzilla list tyranids.

If we are talking about points efficiency, cheaper is always better, (more points into your army).  IMO, either HQ's are dependent on your army or your army dictates your HQ.  So, if you play a cheap flyrant, there should be other 'fast' elements to the army.  Usually, Tyranids are so good in cc, for efficiency, why not orient them to cc.  Shooting is useful, but fluff-wise too, tyranids like to munch ppl face to face.