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Author Topic: The Unalienable Rights  (Read 4052 times)

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Offline Tuisich-Anastari

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2002, 05:18:51 PM »

As for Isolationism.....wh y is it that people like to run from one extreme to another? From being totally involved in other people's businesses to locking ourselves away completely? No. Somewhere in the middle would be preferable.

Listen less to what others tell you, and try to think logically.


First, the slight to my ability to think logically and not just listen to what others say is HIGHLY offensive.  But I'm over it.

Second, I think you missed the point of that post, which I tried to make abundantly clear through my fake html [sarcasm][/sarcasm].  I was responding to fighting_scars claim that the US should never meddle in other countries' affairs.  He suggested the extreme; I was pointing out the problem with that extreme.
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Offline Cormer Lir

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2002, 05:52:57 PM »
Oh, I seem to recall that the Taliban had a couple planes...  Nothing really in the way of an Air force, true.

And yes, the Taliban could not compete.  What's your point?  As such, if someone three hundred times my strength were to walk up to me and make a REASONABLE REQUEST, I'd give them what they want.  It's not worth fighting over.  

Re-think your own logic.  You're saying "Palestinians bombs Israelis because Israel occupies Palestine."  You're making the exact same argument that I am, only you're doing it wrong.  :)  

As to what war, read your history.  The West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights were lost during the 6-Day War in '67, and the remainder of what could be termed the Palestinian army was destroyed in '82, IIRC, after they started launching rockets at Israel from Lebanon.

As for the various political impacts in Europe as opposed to the US...  that's part of it.  The other part, of course, is the time honored tradition of anti-semitism in Europe.  Nothing all that overt, of course, but on the order of background noise.

The US does keep a substantial oil reserve, but that's not a part of our supply.  It is what it claims to be, a reserve against time of crisis.  Mostly, it's there for wartime use.

And here's the final point that you're missing:  The price of staying "passive".  If you mean "passive" in the sense of doing absolutely NOTHING, you're correct, there would be a price.  A neglible one, but a price none-the-less.  But "passive" can also mean "not sending women & children with bombs strapped to them to go kill civilians" and at the same time pleading their greivances in the court of public opinion.  In all seriousness, they should really look into the theories on non-violent resistance.  It would get them a LOT further, with less loss of life.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2002, 06:27:46 PM »

As for the various political impacts in Europe as opposed to the US...  that's part of it.  The other part, of course, is the time honored tradition of anti-semitism in Europe.  


Please look up the word "semite" in a dictionary. You are using the word in the wrong context. Semite does not mean "Jew" in exclusion of all else. You may be surprised to see that many Arabs are also semites. So to be accurately anti-semite means to have a hatred of Arabs as well. Which, historically, appears to be the domain of the US.


In all seriousness, they should really look into the theories on non-violent resistance.  It would get them a LOT further, with less loss of life.


Yes they have, no it hasn't. Please refer to the UN voting record when it comes to resolutions concerning the West Bank problem. How did passive resistance help then? How would it help now?

Compare this situation with China and Taiwan. China owns Taiwan. It is theirs historically. How would you feel if China blockaded Taiwan so that no aid may enter and that no member of their government may leave. Then an invasion is made against the island. It's okay isn't it?
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Offline Addinarr

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2002, 06:42:55 PM »
I apologise, I hda not intended to be insulting. And your post seemed....ambiguous to me at the time. *Shrugs*

Back to Cormer: Ah yes, it was not worth fighting for. At all. We can liken the Taliban to a stubborn child who refuses to relinquish a valuable object. Are they in the wrong. Yes, they are. Still...do you not think that striking the child to get the item a tad....EXTREME?

I'm re-thinking it, but I don't see it. Enlighten me.

As for "Court of Public Opinion", you are correct. ...Somewhat. I was under the impression that they were simply young men, but it is hard to say. In any case, if they did go to such a court, would be paying any attention? Who is to say such a Court wouldn't rule against them. Further, most of them even have a proper schooling. What respect for international law could they have?

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Offline Krathen Astreyk

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2002, 06:53:54 PM »
You have to understand there is absoultly no way we can win if we attack we will be viewed harshly if we don't we will also be attacked for our unwiling nes to attack
Maybe if I hold really still in my cammo the bloodthirster won't eat me when I shoot it through the skull.....
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Offline Cormer Lir

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2002, 12:45:14 PM »
If I'd gone up to my father's dresser, taken his wallet and walked away, the eventual confrontation would have been along the lines of:
D: "Chris, please give me back my wallet."
C: looking down at the wallet in my hands "I don't have your wallet."
D: "I can see it in your hands right THERE, so please give it back."
C: "That's not your wallet. It's some identical, but completely different wallet."
D: "I can see the edge of my drivers license.  It's my wallet.  Give it back NOW."
C: "Umm.... maybe if you gave me more time to think about it?"
D: "It's not a matter that requires thought.  Give me the wallet back NOW, or suffer the consequences."
C: "I can't.  The other kids would laugh at me if I did."

and so on.

Now, I had more sense than that when I was an infant.  My parents didn't exactly beat me on a regular basis, but I knew that there were lines that you didn't cross.  In truth, I'd have guaranteed a beating by the opening sentence there.  Lying is frowned upon in my family.


Quite frankly, the UN is a joke.  Both sides violate UN Sec. Council declarations on a regular basis, and the UN is too weak and ineffectual to get involved.  

In regards to the use of the word Semite, yes, I am aware of it.  Most dictionaries, incidentally, will have at least one subsection of the definition that basically reads :Jewish.  It's a popular use phrase, and there was no ambiguity involved on the part of the readers, I'm sure.  Don't be nitpicky.

In regards to Taiwan...  not quite the same thing.  Mainland China DID attempt blockades and embargoes, but Taiwan is the last refuge of the previous government, one considered friendly to the US.  The Communist Party has NEVER controlled Taiwan.  In the case of Israel/Palestine, it's more like the state of Texas.  We won it in a war, it's technically ours to govern as we see fit.

Basically, what Israel is looking for is security.  They've been invaded FAR too many times in recent memory, and the one time that they didn't stick around and wait for the Arabs to move, they were censured for it in many countries.  Any deal that is offered is going to require some of the very things that the Palestinians are railing against, solely because the Palestinian factions have proven that they cannot be trusted.  
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Offline Lord Calamir

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2002, 04:45:16 PM »
I think that the U.S. tries to do it's best to help other nations, but, some nations don't like us for what we are, and so, Bush has nothing else to do BUT turn a blind eye to them. World peace and international rights can't be done while conflicting ideals reign supreme, and I applaud the U.S. government's efforts in fighting for what they think is right.


No offense flyingbuddha, but I think whoever truly believes that is terribly naive. The US never do or did anything out of benevolence or altruism, they are always pursuing their very own interests. Which are, to put it simple, to control as much of the world as possible. World peace will never become reality as long as there are people and organizations who benefit from war, and there's a lot of them - like, for instance, the US military industry...

As for the Israel vs. Palestine conflict: in my eyes it is pretty hopeless. Both sides are blinded by hate and revenge, and both have ruthless warmongers (Israel's prime minister Ariel Sharon being one of the biggest). While Palestinian suicide bombers blow up schools and restaurants, Israeli tanks fire grenades at Palestinian settlements and wreck innocent citizens' houses. And they won't stop - not unless they were driven apart by force.
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Offline Zeus

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2002, 05:54:23 PM »
most people do whats in their best interests for their country. But saying the US has never done anything for anyone? Ok pal right after ww2  WE (THE US!) rebuilt ALL OF EUROPE. In fact , most european countries OWE US A HUGE! AMOUNT OF $ . Do we ask them for it? no. How bout somalia? WE send people over there to feed and cloth the people (what do we have to gain from that?) BUT the warlords see thier business being disrupted (controlling the people) so they attack us. I love how you people say DO SOMETHING, then say THATS WRONG!. I agree with flying buddah. (sarcasm) yup we shoulda NOT IMPOSED and left europe to hitler and his cronies. BUT (gasp) we imposed and oppressed people by SAVING THEM FROM A MONSTER!!!!! Yup everyone we americans are just out to get you and your families so we can enslave you and take everything you have. I dont agree with either side of the conflict in isreal. BUT! yes after isreal was created *there was a palestinian state at this time* all them arab countries and the palestinians thought it would be a lark to attack them for a few decades. WHAT HAPPENED!? they lost. Now they had to give up their territory. But i think by now isreal should have left it.
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Offline Lord Calamir

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2002, 03:23:39 AM »
I'm not saying everything the US did was wrong in the first place, but I am saying it always was for their own purposes. They did not enter WW II because they cared about those oppressed people, but to stop Hitler from becoming a super-power (that might have threatened their own superiority). And they rebuilt Europe because they NEEDED it rebuilt, both as a market for their economy and because of the Soviet threat.

Re: Palestine - there never was a Palestinian state. Back in WW I, Britain promised to the Arabs (who were aiding them in their fight against the Osmans) to establish an Arabian empire with Palestine as "capital", but they never did.
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Offline Addinarr

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2002, 09:26:34 AM »
Zeus....didn't I just have a talk with you about being overly-excited?

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Offline elite Tyranid Warrior

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2002, 05:26:04 PM »
Some guy made a speech on TV how Bin Laden is cowardly. Right... The USA has done worse than Terroism. HATE CRIMESBuilding enough nuclear bombs to destroy the world too. They should have realised they would strike back. They were on the isreali's side. Just like the japenese war, the americans discrimante turban wearers.
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Offline Zeus

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2002, 05:36:15 PM »
Um yes we have enough weapons to destroy the world, but do we? no i didnt think so. Ever hear of the arms race in the cold war. Russia has almost as many nukes as we do and it was a continueing escalation. Thus that is not very good logic. As far as the Hate Crimes you speak of, most happend right after the attacks mainly due to a frustrated populace at the fact that people that were registered to live in our country would attack us. They killed over 3000 people man. Im not justifying hate crimes , in fact i abhor them, but you have to realize people have long standing clashes with each other and being that the US is the most cultrally diverse nation in this world by far makes it very easy for old rivalries to erupt. You must understand what i said in the prevoius sentence that it was people that were registered to live in our own country that carried this out. Killing 3000 people that are innocent is the biggest act of cowardice, and dont feed me that "the us kills civilians in *insert name of war here* because its a war and you cant prevent civilian casulties. Yes, these terrorists are cowards because they deliberatley chose a civilian target. Have you ever been to the US? I live here and have been all over the country and the fact is that 99% of the people love and respect each other regardless of race or religion, theres always the 1% of morons that go out and commit crimes. You cant possibly deduce that the US is full of hate such as you say.
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Offline Addinarr

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2002, 06:56:25 PM »
I find it odd you call suicidal bombers cowardly. They hit civilian targets, yes, but do they really have a chance against a military target? Of course, the Pentagon is considered a military target, but then again, nobody really expected this kind of attack.

And apparently, there is nothing stopping armies from blowing up civilian targets these days, except a public outcry. Supposedly, in the old days it was frowned upon by even military leaders, but then again "savages" and "barbarians" were apparently excluded from this privilege.

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Offline Zeus

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2002, 09:12:56 PM »
the vietnamese used sappers on military targets.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2002, 09:14:58 PM »
How about the USS Cole? That was a military target. Why did everyone get so upset about it then?
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Offline Zeus

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2002, 09:17:02 PM »
id rather have someone attack a united states military post than a civilian one. Military was ment to put their lives on the line.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2002, 09:23:26 PM »
So would I. Being that few, if any, countries abide by that principle I'd rather not play favourites. It's wrong no matter who breaks the rules. The flag they fly is immaterial compared to what they do.
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Offline Zeus

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2002, 09:29:45 PM »
 i agree
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