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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Democracy in the Imperium
« on: June 28, 2015, 03:32:34 PM »
The Imperium, in its vastness, is generally understood to not really interfere in planetary matters as long as tithes are made, Imperial Law kept, Imperial Creed confessed, and psykers rounded up and sent to Terra. The actual regime and form of rule for a planet isn't important, as far as I understand, though the spotlight tends to be on the more despotic ones.

That leaves the question - how do we imagine any hypothetical democracies taking place in the Imperium to be? I'd love to hear specific references from fluff - but also educated guesses and speculation.

Offline Halollet

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Re: Democracy in the Imperium
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2015, 10:53:38 PM »
At first I thought this title was a joke.  Democracy? More like do what we say or exterminatus.

So I like you, am really interested in actual Democracy goes on! :)
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Democracy in the Imperium
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 12:59:12 AM »
I have never read of any instances in the current Imperium where democracy happens.  Usually the planets and sectors are run by appointed governors.  For the most part, it seems that if there is any divergence it is that planets will follow a feudal system.  But democracy?  I just can't see it happening.
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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Democracy in the Imperium
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 03:25:22 AM »
Pretty much all Imperial worlds are ultimately ruled by a planetary governor.  Because of the extreme control such individuals have, and because of human nature,  you often see these figures pass along their titles to family members.  Y'know.  'Cause it's sort of hard to *not* to pass along literal world domination to family members who probably don't have much in the way of alternative life-style-supporting skills. 

The fact that direct rebellion against a planetary governor is pretty much seen as the same as rebellion against the Imperium (especially since governors are usually the ones in the best position to get their point of view across to outside forces)means that a planetary governor could conceivably call upon the might of the Imperium to help maintain she and he family's rule.  The Imperium would also theoretically favor stable, reliable long-term figures being in charge as it lowers the chances of having to contend with a radical or inexperienced newcomer.

That said! You are quite right that the Imperium mostly doesn't bother local rulership or culture provided they don't interfere with Imperial taboos.  Creating AI, for instance, would not be a tolerated cultural trait.  As a result,  a planetary governor who is willing to put his power in the hands of an election would theoretically be allowed to do so.  Of course, it would be difficult to create an arrangement that would be both remembered and honored by the Imperium at large that would prevent an elected governor from quickly switching the democratic system to something more autocratic.  I think I recall reading stories that mention senatorial councils or conflicts between rival chieftains and such on various planets though, and such factions could potentially get Imperial forces' ears long enough to explain their side.  How that works out is probably largely the decision of whichever inquisitor, guard commander, or space marine chapter happens to respond.  If a planet has a valuable human resource like a mechanicum foundry or a navigator house based on the planet,  they would probably be more likely to get the Imperial forces to listen to their grievances than, say, the aforementioned rival war chief. 

And then there are the planets that have simply been ignored by the Imperium for centuries at a time.  They could theoretically depose their governor in a quick fashion, switch over to a democratic system, and then stay that way while still officially claiming loyalty to the Imperium until a ship swings by, realizes there's no governor, and puts a new one in place.

Somewhat relevant is that Ahriman: Sorcerer features a planetary governor of a prim world who is essentially the strongest warrior house.  His world hasn't been touched by the Imperium in centuries, so their wars and conflicts are pretty much all internal.

Offline khaine

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Re: Democracy in the Imperium
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2015, 10:52:11 AM »
I could see a democracy easily being created due to a clerical error in the Adeptus Administratum…

Ultimately the kind of power required to keep a star system under control would always favour the appointment of a governor, the same would largely stand on a planet wide scale. Below that I could see a situation where a number of smaller democracies would function, for instance elected governments covering individual Hive cities on a Hive world. Background does point towards Hives being run by “Noble Houses” that don’t have any real wider influence than their own city but I don’t recall any real mention of if the Houses gain their influence from above (Appointed by Planetary/System Governor) or below (Supported by the largest % of Hive population)

Even if their power does come from below it would be unlikely to be a voting process in the same way we currently understand democracy and would always be subject to a sudden overruling by the higher Imperial forces in control of the greater region. This in turn would bring about a whole subtext of if an imposed democracy would even be a democracy.

Small outposts on worthless worlds would also be an option for democratic systems simply because nobody would care enough to want to own them.

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Democracy in the Imperium
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2015, 01:45:18 PM »
Differing forms of democracy are still possible. Take a constitutional monarchy. The Monarch/Governor is the unelected head of state but below that the system is able to run on any other democratic manner. Of course the Monarch/Governor would be responsible to make sure the planet/system tows the Imperial line so I'd imagine them having the PDF, or at least a significant portion of it, directly reporting to them.
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Democracy in the Imperium
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2015, 06:49:11 PM »
Differing forms of democracy are still possible. Take a constitutional monarchy. The Monarch/Governor is the unelected head of state but below that the system is able to run on any other democratic manner. Of course the Monarch/Governor would be responsible to make sure the planet/system tows the Imperial line so I'd imagine them having the PDF, or at least a significant portion of it, directly reporting to them.

That's actually what I was going to suggest as the initial responses were a bit lukewarm. It doesn't just stop there though, another possibility is elective monarchy - where elections take place everytime once a monarch dies.

Also, I don't personally think that democracies are by definition less stable than dictatorships - if the current world climate has taught us anything, it's that, I believe. Take the US system, for example - a two-party system that for all intents and purposes just sort of goes through the motions without any true great upheavals.

In fact, democracy, if just nominal, can help further stability by offering a ritualized outlet for frustration - the people of a planet has a way of expressing and ousting an unpopular governor without revolting and creating a headache for the local Sector Governor or what have you.

A democratic society certainly does not need to be a free society. We can look to, say, ancient Athens, Great Britain or Prussia to see forms of democracy where only a small percentage of the population could vote. All land-owning citizens (or all citizens with a gross income and fortune above a certain level), for example - or maybe there's a clear division between an "original" population that has the right to vote, and a huge mass of indentured servants imported from different planets that can't (like in the United Arabic Emirates or slavery-era USA), or the very opposite - an indigenous populace that is oppressed by the descendants of the "true" bringers of the Imperial Creed (like in the Boer Republics or Apartheid South Africa), one could also limit voting rights to those who've undergone a certain cursus honorum, like serving in the PDF for a certain time, or has served as a public servant - meaning that they are more likely to benefit from the status quo and thus to vote for it.

Lastly, it's fully possible to use ostensibly democratic processes that are based on patron-client relations, like in the Roman Republic, or in much of modern Latin-America (Equador, Bolivia, Brazil, etc.) where party membership will be rewarded with jobs once the new government gets in power, or where the regions that have representatives from the reigning parties receive increased public financing for schools or health care. Sure, this will lead to widespread inefficiency, but not moreso than aristocratic inheritance of positions within, say, the Administratum, which we know already exists.

It can also be a form of democracy where the voters must vote from a pre-approved list of candidates - such as in Iran under the religious council, or how China pursued for the local elections in autonomous Hong Kong. Imagine the candidates all having to ve vetted by the Administratum and Ecclesiarchy.

And important point I feel like making is that while the Imperium's might is often portrayed as omnipresent and irresistible, the more likely situation is that it is spread thin, difficult to organize efficiently, and probably not amazingly well-funded. The Imperium might rather recognize that the long-term cost of invading a unstable planet is higher than allowing for certain small concessions, much like the Ecclesiarchy allows within a wide plethora of incorporated forms of faith as long as they recognize the supreme divinity of the God-Emperor. Grimdarkness aside, finances and logistics can make even the most warlike ruler pursue other means of keeping planets in line.


Offline Kage2020

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Re: Democracy in the Imperium
« Reply #7 on: July 1, 2015, 08:23:50 PM »
And important point I feel like making is that while the Imperium's might is often portrayed as omnipresent and irresistible, the more likely situation is that it is spread thin, difficult to organize efficiently, and probably not amazingly well-funded.
I would suggest that there is much wisdom here. Much of the representation of the Imperium is about control of the spaces between things. This can be literal, in terms of the Military and Merchant fleets and their control of the shipping lanes or the overt threat of their presence, or it can be a reference to the periods of time where the control of the Imperium is less than constant.

Homeostasis seems an ever better guiding principle for the Imperium than "grimdarkery" often portrays.

 


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