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Offline Grizzlykin

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Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« on: May 25, 2015, 03:47:32 PM »
Well hello everyone.

I'm starting this support to try to figure out and discuss a good way to use the vyper what are the vyper good poi t bad point what is it's purpose fluff wise how do we interpret it game wise what are the best load out for the point what loadout are the most efficient, what match up does she excel in and when does it do pourly. This unit have always been one i liked because it was really looking cool and it was not a common unit and I always liked not meta things because you could surprise some opponents with it. Well not experienced one but daily people could get drawn away or go the vyper pouring ressources in killing it, therefore not using it to kill more important things.

Ok so let's us begin, I started playing eldar because i loved there tank and qspect warrior. There philosophy was appealing to me sleek moving alien, chirurgical strike. Very specialised unit, very potent in there field of expertise. Choose your opponents and obliterate him was the idea i loved back then, but does the vyper enter this category?

Well kinda and kinda not. The vyper is a unit that for a very long time wasn't all that good or any good at all to begin with. It's designed to be a gun boat and a gun boat only. Yet it's not really fulfilling this role. Some other tank like the falcon can do this as well and for a long time they were better, for a similar cost they were offering much more survivability compared to there vyper counter part, it had acces to greater weapon and could potentially transport things. But today with the release of the new dex, the vyper got cheaper probably not cheap enough to my liking but well they are way better than last codex. Let us concider the advantages and disadvantage of the vyper.

First it can all the regular heavy weapon and have acces to the same upgrade as all the other tank. It's a fast skimmer, meaning it's fast, can jink and turboboost pretty far. It has the manouvrability nessecary to out class most of the opponents units. That's always been the dominant trait of eldar and the vyper make no eexception. Next is the vyper can have some of the most formidable shooting power in our dex for the point. Take nearly stock vyper with only shurican upgrade and you got 6 high strength shot for some really small amount of point. Same price with jetbike you have 6 twinlinked low strength shot mounted on jetbike but for half the range, if you concider guardian for the same price you have 10 low strength shot not guaranty to move as much each turn... well i could go further but i think you get my point cheap hight strenght shot. I see coming the yes but scatter bike blablabla... for the price of 4 scatter bike you get 2 starcanon+shurican vyper. Yep there use have different but you get that i won't say bike are better, even thought i know that's the case but do you believe they each havd to fight over the same job? Of course not what would be the points, canybalisme never was a good things. We will see this later on. And one last things i feel is good, it can be taken as squadron.

The vyper bad points... Well there is plenty of those, and that's probably why the vyper isn't all that used. First is its low armour value... do i need to get further into this, any str4 weapon can glance you to death. Bolter can harm you, oh wait there range is the same as your shurican! Get in range and it's death assured. And you have no save what so ever out of jink, wich will bring you to snapshot negating the very point of having the vyper as a gun boat. Next reason is bad is open toped... every thing with str 5 or more could potentially blow you up even without ap 2 or 1 weapon... Your range is rather short, like all eldar unit you will say but well, still annoying. The vehicule upgrade are as pricy as on bigger vehicule, making it counter productive to invest in something expensive when the cheap is where your interest lies. And that should be it for now. There is surely plenty other but those are the most important one i think.

So now let us concider a few scenario. We will try to figure out wich load out are the most suited for each scenario. For the purpose of going faster let me first rules out the missille launcher as a possible update the vyper isn't survivable enought to be given this weapon. The cost is way to hight to make it worth the gamble. Possibly you could use it for anti air while keeping it in reserve until flyer comes in, but srly i mean really, we have better things for that than a vyper.

First Scenario is a windrider host. Most of You won't be playing the warhost so i will start with this situtation. Most of you aswell see the vyper as a tax, I would like to make you concider another point of view. In the windrider host there is a few things to concider. First is you run with bike in the list...  wait bikes?  the same bikes that goes with shurican and scatter upgrade...  huuum there you have a position of tax for the vyper as the jetbike will most likely be doing what vyper does but better. So let's concider, the load out of the Shurican and Scatter lazer kinda are out in this situtation don't you think. Well we could but we won't. The shurican load out will stay here, and mostly because of the rule for the host. You could potentially give shred to your weapon. So i will keep the shurican as a possible load out. But with this how many vyper should make the count? If you think about it as a tax then take only one. Give it the double shurican loadout, and use it to capture objective, unleashing it's fire power from time to times and jinking when ever possible. Yes you want to drow fire power, so you better have it survive, if cover save are not enought then jink. I say if, because the vyper is rather small so you should be able to get in cover most of the time. There, with this load out, you will have a sacrificial pawn to throw at your opponents, but you would rather keep it alive as much as possible. The other option could be to use this load out in a 3 or 4 vyper squad.  The point is to have some fast moving shurican but that will be there as a bait. Yep you are looking at a 150 to 200 pts unit that will simply draw fire. Most of the time to pause even the slightest threat you will need to get into the enemy range wich mean you will be jinking to limit the damage, negating most of your potential dammage for the next turn. but you draw fire that's what you wanted. However i don't recommend this vs good armor army (space marine for example). Even with the bladestorm you will most likely not kill much of them, sheer wait of dice could help but don't count on it too much. Well with 4  vyper squad you are looking at 24 str 6 shot with blade storm... so that make for a hell lot of shot still. looking to finish a squad? then you can give it a shot but really stay away from retaliation as much as possible. The vyper is an unforgiving unit. use it accuratly and precisely and you will melt the opponent, misplace them one and they will disapear the following turn. Even more with this gun equiped since you are pretty short ranged.

Ok onto the next what you lack in the riderhost is either low ap weapon for heavy infantry, hight strenght shot for heavy vehicule. These can be compensated with other things in your army that's why you might want to stay with the tax style vyper.  But, Eventually if you want to have it inside your riderhost, then, you have this two possible load out. If you look for absolute polyvalence between this two role the bright lance surely is the best, but the lower amount of shot make for lesser efficienty vs infantry, so i would not recommend it. Eldar are the master of specialised unit, going against this would be stupid i think. Even more since the brightlance is so good at killing tank anyway. So if you are trying to get somee hevay tank out of your way then bright lance is the way to go. Keep in mind that bright lance can still insta kill a terminator, so that can sometimes be usefull. I usually play vs Chaos with nurgle mark so that's something that not much use to me but can be to you. Yet keep in mind that there is more chance for you to have a shot stopped with a 5++ save than having 2 stopped. Therefore if you are looking for anti-heavy infantry or monstruous creature, you might want to go for Starcanon insted of Brightlance. I don't believe there is much things with a 6+ thoughness out there exept some thigns like our eldar wraithconstruct and few Monstruous creature right and left. That mean most of the time, you will be wounding from 4+ to 2+. You can wound termi on 2+ for example concidering this guy's as a straight comparason, if you have starcanon, you can stay out of range for the full game if not drop-poded on your face, and you can reliably kill 2-3 a turn with starcanon if you go for a 3 to 4 vyper squad, wich mean they fight each other pretty efficiently at similar point level. I mean the starcanon upgrade is jsut soooooo cheap it would be hard to not upgrade to it if you intend to field a vyper, and go hunt heavy infantry. Ok so now do you want to take the undershurican? Well i would take it everytime because even if you play it the safe way and try to never get in range to use it, then when you are in range nothing prevent you to throw a huge volley to you opponents, and if you go after regular cheap infantry, you will shread them. Yes it's counter to what i said earlier but you cannot choose your opponents everytime :). I personally take it everytime. I don't say it's a no brainer but you will more likely be happy to have it most of the time.

Ok so now that all my thought have been exposed let's make it short. In case you want to play the vyper tax 3 descent option are open to you : stock (i would not recomend it but well you never know can do something if left untouch), double shurican (descent option vs horde list but not the best if you are fighting marine or similar type of unit), starcanon on a lone vyper (can be usefull vs heavy infatry but will more likely be a gamble, take additional shurican to you liking). Be aware that a lone vyper will not really put out a lot of fire power out, so you should try the more you can to make use of it to secure objective. You got no bike close and you don't want to turbo boost them? Then do it with the vyper, 24 inch move is still nothing to laught at.

If you plan on using them for special hunting. For tank hunting then use them in 3/4 squad, i think the 3 squad of vyper is better, because you don't want to invest to many point in vyper. They are not survivable enought if you don't jink. So you go with Brightlance only for those, the Shurican won't be of any use vs heavy tank, so i think it's better not having the canon that would tempt you to get closer, possibly exposing your vyper. 3 lance shot have a fair chance at destroying the hp of most tank in 2 to 3 turn, admitting you manage to keep them alive. For Heavy infantry hunting i suggest going for the Starcanon upgrade, and get the shurican. I think the shurican is kind of a safety net. You want to use it only if you think you can destroy the unit in front of you, if it's doomed and you are guided for example, and there not much model left in it. I say this because the 24 range will expose you most of the time so you want to be sure to take out your opponents before they can shoot back.

...

It took me quite some time to write this, way more than i expected so i will be adding a part 2 later this week.

And you how do you use your vyper? i have yet to go further into this, such as other formation, and tactics, so i think there is stil a long road ahead of me on this work.

That's also my first time writing something like this. So I would like to have as much feed back as you can provide. Please tell me where i'm doing wrong if you see things to rectifiate. In further devellopement situation, i will Update this first post and had a post below to say it's been updated. Like this if someone is reading this for the first time he will always have the updated version in first post.

Looking forward to your input

-Grizzlykin-

Ps : While i'm at it once everything is settled with the article i will do a huge revamp to see if there is any big problem with my english in the text i wrote. Not my native language and i don't alway see the mistakes. I will try my best to produce something readable without having your eyes destroyed.

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Excessive stats removed to comply with GW copyright rules - Iris.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 05:15:35 AM by Irisado »
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Offline Rx8Speed

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2015, 03:55:48 PM »
sorry i didnt read your whole thing but i think you should almost always upgrade ti the shuriken cannon and get star cannon for killing heavy troops or the scatter laser for hunting light vehicles

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2015, 03:59:22 PM »
Well that was quick, that's why the title of the thread is Let's Talk, i want to discuss it with you guy's and try to figure out how to make use of the vyper so we can rock the battlefield with them.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2015, 05:58:49 PM »
Low Armour is the Vypers biggest problem as you have described. This means they carry a single heavy weapon to stay out of S4 range. Windriders can cover this roll, get jink and an armour save. If I want to fire EML/BL/SC then War walkers are better point value and are still rather mobile.

No matter the role you want to use the Vypers for, we have better options in the dex.

To fix the Vypers you need to either make them very cheap or give them the same armour profile as a Hornet, but still open topped.

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2015, 08:25:08 PM »
I've been discussing vypers a lot with the local ork/tyranid player.  The biggest problem with vypers is war walkers.  The range and speed on both platforms is good enough that I can bring their weapons to bare easily enough, but my war walkers can also battle focus behind BLOS terrain and have an invulnerable save to boot.  The vyper can jink, but then you'll statistically only be landing a single hit on the following turn assuming it's still alive.  That the war walker can scout and outflank doesn't help the vyper's case much either.

There are plenty of other codices that would love to have a unit like the vyper, but among heavily armored grav tanks, war walkers that can scoot behind terrain to hide, and hornets that are essentially improved vypers, the vyper itself really only has one advantage: its cost. 

If you're strictly looking for a cheap way to spam some heavy weapon shots, the vyper isn't a bad option.  And that's the thing.  The vyper is never a "bad" option.  It's just that it doesn't really have a unique place.  Other options can hit just as hard while also having better defensive abilities.  Unless you find your points are *just* tight enough to field a vyper and not much else, you'll have a hard time justifying using the vyper over something else. 

Poor vypers.  I was sort of hoping they'd get something unique or else become a multi-wound jetbike to run with guardian bikers, but as is, they remain squeezed between other options. 

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2015, 05:21:57 AM »
Just a few points on presentation:

1.  Rummy has kindly split your text into paragraphs, so when you write part two, see if you can make more use of paragraphs.  It makes what you're saying easier to follow for the reader, which means members here are more likely to read it and to respond :).

2. Please be careful with the stats.  Even when writing articles we have to adhere to GW's copyright policy.  You'll see that I've given you examples of how to avoid using stats in green in the first part of your article.

3. Please use spell check :).  As English isn't your first language, it would be a very good idea to run spell check on your article.  The forum has one as do a number of web browsers.  It would improve the article significantly if the spelling could be tidied up a bit.

On content, I think that it's a very good idea that you want to try to find ways of using one of less effective units in the Eldar codex.  Such articles are usually the most interesting to read, since using the best units doesn't usually require a great deal of tactical insight.  As a result, I hope that a combination of your own experiences and those of the community here, it may well be possible to come up with some effective tactics for making the most of the Vyper.  Please keep up the good work :).
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2015, 06:50:40 AM »
Its not that Vypers are tough to use... its that they are difficult to assign a role that isn't carried out by other deadlier or more resilient units. That being said I have seen them used effectively. Double Shuriken Cannons seems the way to go. Its the cheapest and most efficient build and fairly simple to run. Keep them out of trouble by going after isolated units and basically hunt infantry with them or light vehicles. They are actually really nasty against Dark Eldar and Orks... especially against Venoms without blasters onboard as their posion weaponry is essentially useless against them.

Their ideal targets are units with 24" range weaponry which encompasses many units.

An alternate build which I rather like (and this harkens back to an OLD debate between myself an Irisado) is equipping them with Eldar Missile Launchers. With EML they have great range and even better they have access to skyfire! A squadron of 3 hanging out in LOS blocking terrain can be excellent. They've got enough fire power to hullpoint vehicles like Chimera chassis vehicles, Rhinos, etc to death. Against other Eldar, Dark Eldar, Ork Flyers and even Winged Hive Tyrants they can do some serious damage and against Imperial flyers they have the chance to strip perhaps a hull point or two as a sort of final strike if your own flyers fail to down them.


The more I write about the EML on the Vyper the more I like it... but anyway they can be used. Just treat them as a luxury item in your list. So long as you have a good strong build covers all your bases the Vypers can really perform well so long as you limit the return fire coming in on them. Just be cautious and they should do fine.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2015, 07:11:52 AM »
In my testing of the various Guardian warhosts that require Vypers I have found double shuriken cannon to be quite effective for the points of a squadron of three. A squadron of 3-4 with just Bright Lances is decent against tougher vehicles.

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2015, 07:19:20 AM »
OOooook so that's a lot of things to change and modifify.
Thank you rummy I shall do as you asked... maybe if i ever build terrain some day.
Thank you irisado aswell for the support and the correction i did try my best to avoid copyright problem but in the heat of the moment some things tend to slip buy. I will try with the paragraphe, I did try to have some but I did not though I should have gone for a full space in between, I shall ne more carefull next time, most of this was actually written on my phone, no easy to get an idea of sapce and such other things.

Everyone I've read everythings you've said and I've seen some intresting thing and some reflexion I did have at some point. I will try to update everything when i got the time to do so, wich i not now >< but later this week should be just fine.
Please all keep in mind that so far the only things I've covered was the RIDERHOST wich leave open CAD to discuss and GuardianHost.

Thanks for the support
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Offline Rx8Speed

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2015, 10:58:08 AM »
Eldar has always been about focusing fire power to take enemy units off the table. Nowadays most of our units have almost enough firepower to eliminate stuff on their own. You don't want to dedicate 2 units with almost enough fire power to take out a whole unit each on a single target. You are better off combining the firepower of one of those units and a cheap unit with good firepower on a single target so you are not wasting damage potential. This s where the vyper comes in. It has everything it needs for this role. Good fire power and mobility to bring its guns where they are needed and a cheap price tag. It should kind of work like a heavy weapon platform does for a guardian squad, but for whatever unit you decide.

Here's why I think starcannons > shuriken cannons
The obvious most obvious bonus is the ap. The most obvious downfall is the # of shots. The range is the real reason why it's better though. Chances are that you won't have a target for the shuriken cannons on turn 1. The starcannon with its additional range will most likely have something to shoot at. Possibly complimenting some dark reapers,a wave serpent or maybe some windriders. Because of this extra turn of shooting you are actually making up for the starcannon's downfall when comapred to the shuriken cannon, it's # of shots. By turn 2 the starcannon has shot 4 times and the shuriken cannon has shot 3 times. On turn 3 they are tied at 6. But they aren't exactly tied since all 6 of the starcannon's shots have been at ap2. even in turn 4 when the count is 8-9 the starcannon is still better because 8 shots at ap2 is better than 9 shots where only 1.5 was ap2.

I agree with cav about the emls. A versatile weapon like the EML really helps them in the supportive role because they can lend support/ focusing firepower against almost any unit.

Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2015, 12:44:55 PM »
I totally agree with what Rx8Speed said. Great points. Personally I really dig the Vypers and since I built mine a long time ago, I mostly stick to WYSIWYG with these, meaning i can field 2x Shuriken Cannon or 2x Starcannon. Both do pretty well and two of these guys are enough for what I want them to do, namely what was just said: finishing off units.

Dual-Cannons sound interesting though, especially for a single model or two. EMLs could be interesting but If you plan on playing the Guardian Host or AA-Walkers, it's probably a bit expensive and not optimal when using "Guide" or similar spells.

Vypers are among the less scary things in our Dex and I believe that most opponnents will only ever target them when it's a garanteed kill or very important game-wise. There are plenty of ways to use that in order to make Vypers extremely useful. They're also good in combination with Windriders, Harlequin Skyweavers and Voidweavers which is a great plus for me.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 12:46:24 PM by Katamari Damacy »
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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 01:39:54 PM »
I will gladly take any input that goes toward making this article more intresting tell me more about this skyweaver things, I don't play harly, only vanilla eldar (craftworld), so that's a field i can't explore on my own but i will gladly report those discution in the first post.
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Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2015, 05:43:33 PM »
Don't have the dex, but will add a tactic that can possibly be applied over from your (rather superior) cousins, the true kin.

If the vyper is as cheap as y'all say, then it may be a good bit of mobile terrain. Park it horrizonatly directly in front of, say, a devestator squad. The shoot it, it drops and blocks their los. Or they move and must snap shot their guns next turn, assuming they can even get into good position.

This is a favorite tactic of mine to do with raiders and has proven to be quite effective
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Re: Let's talk Vyper-Craftworld_codex_edition.
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2015, 06:01:39 PM »
Unfortunetly I still haven't got to play a game with the codex yet but my Aim Han list does contain 6 of my 12 vipers. My main objective with them is to draw fire from more important units. I hope to get to play soon. I'm having major game withdrawal.
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