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Author Topic: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)  (Read 2916 times)

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Offline ReX

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Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« on: October 7, 2010, 03:15:47 PM »
Hello everyone,

from what I can see there are not that many footslogging lists which have been reviewed in here. So since I will soon be participating in a 1850pts tourney and I will be fielding a footslogging list, I thought that I would post it here and hopefully it could get some reviews/comments?

I will write battle reports from the tourney and post them on this site, so you will get to see how this list fares in a fairly competitive environment if you are interested. :)

HQ:
Eldrad                                                                            2XX pts      
Avatar                                                                           1XX pts      

Troops:
10 Guardians, Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden, spear           128 pts      
10 Guardians, Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden, spear           128 pts      
10 Guardians, Scatter Laser, Warlock, Destructor, spear          133 pts
3 Guardian Jetbikes                                                            66 pts
3 Guardian Jetbikes                                                            66 pts
      
Elites:
6 Harlequins, w.  6 kiss                        
        TroopeMaster, Power Weapon
        2x Fusion Pistols, w. kiss
        Shadowseer w. kiss
                                                                              Total: 286 pts

8 Fire Dragons
        Exarch, firepike, Crack shot, Tank Hunters
                                                                              Total: 184 pts
Heavy Support:
3X War Walkers 2xScatter Laser                                           180 pts      
Wraithlord, 2x flamers, BL, EML                                             155 pts      
Wraithlord, 2x flamers, BL, EML                                             155 pts      

Total: 1846 pts

65 models, 12KPs, 5 Scoring Units


Capabilities
I'll try to summarize the main capabilities here:

For long range anti tank there's 2xEML, 2xBright Lances. All non-stunnable shooting.
Against lighter AV10-11 there is 3xScatter Lasers on guardians, and 6x scatter laser on war walkers.
In some circumstances where a stunned result is sufficient against AV12 (IG valkyries for instance) the scatter lasers on the guardians can be used here as well.

For medium to short range anti tank there's 3xSinging Spears and 9xFire Dragons with tank hunter, the Avatar, and if needed the harlequins are capable to pop a transport themselves.

For anti infantry, there are 9x Scatter Lasers, 30 Shuriken Catapults, 1xdestructor, 4xflamers

For assault units, 10 harlequins gives 36 rending + 5 power weapon attacks on the charge (target highly likely to be doomed), the Avatar all fortuned up will be a tough nail and can easily hold of almost anything. 2x Wraithlords is not to be taken lightly as well. If needed, a fortuned Eldrad can both give and receive some beating himself.

For scoring units: 3x10 guardians + warlock that will do what they can to get cover saves, if needed. They will most likely be fearless, however, if the Avatar dies or is out of range, two squads have embolden as a last resort. Jetbikes turbo boost around.

Tactic

Of course, the tactic varies depending on the enemy army and mission, however, what can be said to be some kind of “norm” is that the Avatar, Harlequins + Eldrad, Fire Dragoons and 1 Guardian squad (often destructor squad) moves towards the enemy to put pressure on an area on the board which I want to control. A second guardian squad might be following a bit behind, depending on the army I'm facing.

The remaining 1-2 Guardians + WLs are seeking cover and hopefully holding 1-2 objectives in the backfield. War Walkers are either outflanking against mech, against hordes they might advance within guide range or stay back with the WLs.

Concerning psychic powers the “standard operational procedure” is fortune on the Avatar, and fortune on the Harlequins (which is joined by Eldrad) + Guide/Doom on something. If the harlequins are rather safe, no deep striking nastiness for instance, the fire dragons might get the fortune instead of the harlequins if the enemy as a lot of ranged fire power.

Eldrad is with the harlequins in the early stages of the game so he avoid being easily targeted, if the harlequins takes some wounds from S<8 he gladly takes one for the team if the squad is fortuned. When the opportunity arises the harlequins will leave Eldrad to either assault or counter-assault.

I probably don't have to say this, but the bikes are to stay in reserve for as long as possible and only turbo boost and keep out of harm's way until the later stages of the game where they will try to hold/contest objectives.

Against a hard shooting list (IG for instance) this army needs and loves some terrain, especially area terrain where units will be guaranteed cover saves against possibly indirect fire. The problem is to keep things spread out, yet not so much that units can find themselves partly isolated from the rest of the army. For instance most units needs to stay within 12” of the Avatar (so I won't have to fail those crucial fall back tests at the worst possible moment) and the key units needs to stay within 6” of Eldrad as well (for psychic powers).

To be honest I actually feel that a footslogging list doesn't scale as good as a mech list (or some other armies, like IG, for that matter) once it gets over 1500ish points. However, I have played around 10 friendly test games with this specific list against IG, CSM, Daemons, Tau and BA and have yet to loose or draw a game. So although this list is probably not as competitive as a full mech list, I think I at least will be able to give some armies a run for their money. :)

One "advantage" I might have over a full-mech list is that people are not that used to play against this type of Eldar army, which I believe increases the chances for them to make some mistakes.

Anyway, hopefully I'll get to try the list against good generals with some of the more “competitive armies” out there in the tournament, and as mentioned I'll report back here once the dust has settled on the battlefield. :)

Offline Nighthawk

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #1 on: October 8, 2010, 09:12:17 AM »
The biggest thing I see here is the 2x 3man jet bike unit. I repeatedly found that such small squads have a tendency of getting anihilated before they even get close to their targets. If I were you I would combine them into one larger tooled up unit, 5 or 6 with a cannon. Some people also like sticking a warlock in there with a detructor but its up to you.

The harlequins are a wonderful unit however I personaly think the scorpions would work a lot better here, you can field a bigger unit of 10 thats overall more moile and cheaper. Not that harlies wont work, its just with eldarad in the list, and he is quite a point sink, I would really try looking for ways to get the most for the price that you pay in order to make up for the points you are paying for him. In this case, harlequins are great but from the way I see it too expensive and fragile in respect to the points you pay for them.

Also, do you have any kind of transport for the fire dragons, because on foot they are gonna have trouble getting within range of their guns. They are also a very big fire magnet when exposed so either stick them into 4+ cover or mount them otherwise they are gona get shot a lot. Tank hunters in my opinion isnt worth it for such alarge unit, not only is it an overkill but also no tank will ever risk coming close to you. In fact, if I were you I would completely drop the whole unit and find better ways of using the points. One idea that I have which can work very well in this list, is drop the dragons and use the points to replace one wraithlord with 3 warwalkers, and equip each of the 6 warwalkers with a lance and EML. This way not only can they fire 2 anti tank weapons, but they are also lethal vs infantry and have a good chance of pinning on the move since lance is a main weapon and EML plasma is defense weapon so you can fire both on the move.

If you would do these things, you would have a total of 7 lances, 7 EMLs and 7 vehicles, plus avatar, running around the board hunting tanks and infantry just aswell. You would also have somewhere around 150 points left over to use as you please. I would recommend increaseing guardians to 12 per squad, and add 2-3 vypers with scatter lasers for harassing infantry or geta 6 man ranger unit.

Offline ReX

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #2 on: October 8, 2010, 12:05:39 PM »
The biggest thing I see here is the 2x 3man jet bike unit. I repeatedly found that such small squads have a tendency of getting anihilated before they even get close to their targets.
The jet bikes are not supposed to get close to their targets, on the contrary they are to stay at maximum distance from the enemy as long as possible. Their only purpose in life is to give me options in the later stages of the game when it comes to contesting/holding objectives.

In the later stages of the game the amount of long range fire power at my enemies disposal should (hopefully) have diminished somewhat, meaning they might have to sacrifice a bit to shoot at the bikes, who most likely will have 3+ cover save. The key here is to not let your enemy use his small arms fire to shoot at them but instead forcing him/her to sacrifice some of his long ranged (often heavy) shooting, which he/she probably would rather like to use for shooting at something which does not get a 3+ cover save.

Sometimes, if it is rather safe, they can also be turbo boosted just within 12” of the Avatar which at least stops them from running if they take some casualties.

If I were you I would combine them into one larger tooled up unit, 5 or 6 with a cannon. Some people also like sticking a warlock in there with a detructor but its up to you.
Since the squad is supposed to stay in reserves as long as possible, or if they are on the board only turbo boost and generally stay out of trouble I want to keep the squad as small as possible. The smaller the squad the less tempting it is to shoot at it with those long ranged heavy weapons as well.

The reason why I have 3x2 squads instead of 1x6 is that two squads gives me more options, they are easier to hide, and are less tempting for my enemy to shoot at. And if my enemy tries to eliminate them, killing both squads is harder than focusing down one squad.

For some time I ran a 3xjet bike squad (w.cannon) with a jetlock with embolden and a spear (to have some AT-options), they were also to stay out of the fight for as long as possible and only try and contest. It worked ok, but I found that the unit is quite expensive compared to its resilience and what I was using it for. Then by taking away the cannon and removing the warlock I had (almost) enough points for a completely new 3man squad, which I found to work much better for my style of play.

The harlequins are a wonderful unit however I personaly think the scorpions would work a lot better here, you can field a bigger unit of 10 thats overall more moile and cheaper.
I’m not quite following you here. I have a 10 man harlequin squad, it is not possible to field a scorpion squad that is bigger than that. Secondly, how can you say that scorpions are more mobile than harlequins?
If you factor in outflanking/infiltrating which the scorpions can do, then yes the scorpions can have an initially bigger mobility than the harlequins, however, after they are on the table harlequins beat scorpions in mobility so bad it’s not even funny.

So since I want my assault/counter assault unit to stay with my main army, outflanking or infiltrating my assault/counter assault unit is therefore not an option.

Yes, the scorpions are cheaper, I’ll agree to that, but they are in my view inferior to the harlequins in almost every way (yes, I do know that a lot of people don’t share this view with me). :)

Not that harlies wont work, its just with eldarad in the list, and he is quite a point sink, I would really try looking for ways to get the most for the price that you pay in order to make up for the points you are paying for him. In this case, harlequins are great but from the way I see it too expensive and fragile in respect to the points you pay for them.
So since I have Eldrad I can’t take harlequins? I actually feel that by taking harlequins I do get the most for the price I pay.
The reason is the topic of another discussion, which I have discussed some time ago, and won’t go into again now. I can refer you to
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=205563.0
this thread if you want to know why I feel this way.

I agree that harlequins are fragile. They are the ultimate glass cannon, but I think that’s what makes them fun to use. :)


Also, do you have any kind of transport for the fire dragons, because on foot they are gonna have trouble getting within range of their guns. They are also a very big fire magnet when exposed so either stick them into 4+ cover or mount them otherwise they are gona get shot a lot.
Yes, I know this is what a lot of people are saying, however, I have found them to work very well when fielded as a big squad in a footslogging list. Against certain armies, IG for instance, they will draw a lot of fire as they advance. Fortune the squad and try to advance through cover, thus letting them draw fire away from the less resilient parts of your army.

Tank hunters in my opinion isnt worth it for such alarge unit, not only is it an overkill but also no tank will ever risk coming close to you. In fact, if I were you I would completely drop the whole unit and find better ways of using the points.
And why would you say that tank hunter is overkill? You kind of said it yourself, that no tank will ever risk coming close to them. And I agree, this unit will likely never get within 6” of a something with an AV-value, unless it’s something like a dreadnought and it deep strikes in the middle of my army.
So if this unit never gets to use the +2d6 for armor pen-rolls, how can you say that tank hunter is overkill?

I can tell you that if this squad is shooting against AV14 out of melta range, tank hunter increases the chance of destroying the vehicle (either destroyed results) from around 17% to 67% (thats around 4x increase in fatality!) Against AV13 the same is increased from 67% to 117%, and so on. That doesn’t seem like much overkill to me for the few points this skill cost.

The unit has up to 18” threat range, which is not amazing, but if it’s advancing towards the enemy they will at some point get something into their threat range. If your opponent are backing away all the time, he is probably letting this unit affect his game play too much anyway. As a bonus the exarch has up to 24” threat range on a “Singing Spear strength” shoot against AV, which is AP1 and ignores cover. Against tanks with cover saves this guy really shines. The exarch alone has around 33% chance to destroy a skimmer, with AV12, who have gone flat out on a single shoot. Don’t think you’ll find the equivalent of that from a single model in the entire codex (except Fuegan of course). ;)

And I just thought that I would further add that against AV14, Fire Dragons w. tank hunters are just as likely to destroy a tank as the same number of wraithguards from the same range (12”). If you are shooting at AV13 from 12” with an equal number of dragons and wraithguards, the dragons are almost 60% more effective, and this difference just increases as the AV value goes down.

So unless you are facing a lot of monoliths, fire dragons with tank hunters will always be the better choice than WGs when it comes to tank hunting even at 12”.

One idea that I have which can work very well in this list, is drop the dragons and use the points to replace one wraithlord with 3 warwalkers, and equip each of the 6 warwalkers with a lance and EML.
Walkers have too low BS to be fitted with anything that is heavy 1 in my opinion. With EML and BL they also become extremely expensive for what they are doing.

This way not only can they fire 2 anti tank weapons, but they are also lethal vs infantry and have a good chance of pinning on the move since lance is a main weapon and EML plasma is defense weapon so you can fire both on the move.
Hmm, you do know that walkers don’t have the same restriction as tanks on their shooting when they move right? If not see pg.72 under the heading “Walkers shooting” in the rule book.


I know I more or less disagree with almost everything you said, however, I can at least thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify a bit on some the choices I have made in the list. :)

Offline Eidolon

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #3 on: October 8, 2010, 05:51:39 PM »
Hello everyone,

from what I can see there are not that many footslogging lists which have been reviewed in here. So since I will soon be participating in a 1850pts tourney and I will be fielding a footslogging list, I thought that I would post it here and hopefully it could get some reviews/comments?

I will write battle reports from the tourney and post them on this site, so you will get to see how this list fares in a fairly competitive environment if you are interested. :)

HQ:
Eldrad                                                                            2XX pts      
Avatar                                                                           1XX pts      

Troops:
10 Guardians, Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden, spear           128 pts      
10 Guardians, Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden, spear           128 pts      
10 Guardians, Scatter Laser, Warlock, Destructor, spear          133 pts
3 Guardian Jetbikes                                                            66 pts
3 Guardian Jetbikes                                                            66 pts
      
Elites:
6 Harlequins, w.  6 kiss                        
        TroopeMaster, Power Weapon
        2x Fusion Pistols, w. kiss
        Shadowseer w. kiss
                                                                              Total: 286 pts

8 Fire Dragons
        Exarch, firepike, Crack shot, Tank Hunters
                                                                              Total: 184 pts
Heavy Support:
3X War Walkers 2xScatter Laser                                           180 pts      
Wraithlord, 2x flamers, BL, EML                                             155 pts      
Wraithlord, 2x flamers, BL, EML                                             155 pts      

Total: 1846 pts

Im not sold on this army doing very well. The war walkers and wraithlords are great. But it lacks any kind of serious numbers of combat capabilities. The 8 dragons are a waste, walking dragons are almost never good as they have to get close to do anything. So can be ignored until somebody feels they need to die. 6 harlequins wont kill much of anything without getting beat down. And squads of 3 guardian jetbikes are ok, but once again they are very very fragile and only good for holding objectives. I would drop the guardian bikes for more regular guardians, and the dragons for more harlequins

Offline ReX

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #4 on: October 9, 2010, 04:50:40 PM »
Im not sold on this army doing very well. The war walkers and wraithlords are great. But it lacks any kind of serious numbers of combat capabilities.
OK, so if I quote what I have written earlier under capabilities:

For assault units, 10 harlequins gives 36 rending + 5 power weapon attacks on the charge (target highly likely to be doomed), the Avatar all fortuned up will be a tough nail and can easily hold of almost anything. 2x Wraithlords is not to be taken lightly as well. If needed, a fortuned Eldrad can both give and receive some beating himself.
Could you specify what a serious numbers of combat capabilities would be? Because as I see it, the list have both one of the hardest units to kill in the entire 40k universe (a fortuned Avatar) and a full squad of some of the hardest hitting units (with a high I) in the entire 40k universe (harlequins). So I'm a bit puzzeled that you claim that this list lacks combat capabilities.

6 harlequins wont kill much of anything without getting beat down.
6 harlequins total? I’m sorry, where do you get this number from?

I don’t understand how you can think that 2 harlequins with fusion pistol and kiss, a shadowseer w. kiss, a troupemaster and 2 harlequins w. kiss costs 284 points.
There are 10 harlequins total, where 6 of them are regular ones with kiss and the remaining 4 are the more specially equipped.

The 8 dragons are a waste, walking dragons are almost never good as they have to get close to do anything. So can be ignored until somebody feels they need to die.
First of there is 8 dragons + an exarch in my list, not 8. However, I do disagree with your statement. I have found a big unit of footslogging dragons to work nice in a footslogging list. Although, in the beginning of the game while they are advancing it is often only the exarch that can find a target within range. The thing is that FDs with tank hunter don’t need to be within melta-range to reliably take out tanks. Of course FDs in melta-range will always be better, but that is hard to achieve without a transport.

If you think they can just be ignored until somebody feels they need to die, you might want to take a look at the 4x6 feet battlefield in the two pictures below. In these I’m showing the threat range of the exarch and the normal fire dragons at the beginning of two fights (one with spearhead and one with pitched battle deployment). As you can see they do not have an amazing threat range, but with proper deployment and after 1 or 2 turns of walking they certainly can make their presence known on a flank or on an area on the board.





And squads of 3 guardian jetbikes are ok, but once again they are very very fragile and only good for holding objectives. I would drop the guardian bikes for more regular guardians, and the dragons for more harlequins
Yes, normal guardians are better than a small jet bike squad when it comes to holding objectives. However, there is no other troop choices (when you don’t have transports) that can go from one objective to another one which is 24” away in 1 turn. I have found that the jet bikes gives me so much more options than regular guardians in the contesting/holding objetives stages of the late game, because of their superior mobility. They give me some way to quickely react to unforseen changes in the status regarding contesting and holding objetives.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #5 on: October 9, 2010, 08:46:40 PM »
6 harlequins wont kill much of anything without getting beat down.
6 harlequins total? I’m sorry, where do you get this number from?

I don’t understand how you can think that 2 harlequins with fusion pistol and kiss, a shadowseer w. kiss, a troupemaster and 2 harlequins w. kiss costs 284 points.
There are 10 harlequins total, where 6 of them are regular ones with kiss and the remaining 4 are the more specially equipped.
I think there is some confusion here: You wrote 6 Harlequins, and then wrote 4 upgrades below the 6 Harlequins. Unlike Guardians, who are "Joined by" a Warlock, Harlequins and Aspect Warriors are "Upgraded to" have various wargear, exarchs, etc. Eidolon read it as '6 Harlies with various upgrades", which is what most people would read before looking at the point cost of the squad. In any case there was some confusion about the # of harlequins here but with a squad of 10 you should be able to handle most adversaries in CC.

The 8 dragons are a waste, walking dragons are almost never good as they have to get close to do anything. So can be ignored until somebody feels they need to die.
First of there is 8 dragons + an exarch in my list, not 8. However, I do disagree with your statement. I have found a big unit of footslogging dragons to work nice in a footslogging list. Although, in the beginning of the game while they are advancing it is often only the exarch that can find a target within range. The thing is that FDs with tank hunter don’t need to be within melta-range to reliably take out tanks. Of course FDs in melta-range will always be better, but that is hard to achieve without a transport.

If you think they can just be ignored until somebody feels they need to die...<Graphs here>
Again here we have the whole "joined by an Exarch" vs "upgraded to exarch" diction that seems to be tripping us up. In my lists, I strive to be absolutely clear how many dudes are in each of my units by saying "1 is upgraded to Exarch" or "Unit is joined by a Warlock" in those terms.

In any case, In my experience, nobody ignores Fire Dragons until later. Ever. My Fire Dragon's Serpent draws the most fire out of any of my vehicles, and when they get out, they usually have only one-two chances to fire their guns and will take down 1.5 vehicles per game.

Most of the time, my Fire Dragon serpent is attracting most of the opponents S7+ shots. If I they were on foot instead of in a transport, instead, they would fire all the spare Heavy Bolters on their transports/vehicles at the Dragons on turn 1, wound on 2+, ignore armor, and never worry about them ever again. I always run my dragons in a transport, since they are such a powerful unit that is so susceptible to small arms and light weapons fire that they need the protection.

I have, however, heard tell of Foot Dragons used well. I don't know how to do this, but the Firepike is definitely the right choice for Fire Dragons on foot, as the extra 6" of range, or 3" of Melta, can be critical. This is your call, but keep in mind that if you run these guys full tilt at enemy transports on foot [to make the most use of your threat range], they will get gunned down.
Quote from: Howard Zinn
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.

Offline Nighthawk

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2010, 03:10:42 AM »
I’m not quite following you here. I have a 10 man harlequin squad, it is not possible to field a scorpion squad that is bigger than that. Secondly, how can you say that scorpions are more mobile than harlequins?
If you factor in outflanking/infiltrating which the scorpions can do, then yes the scorpions can have an initially bigger mobility than the harlequins, however, after they are on the table harlequins beat scorpions in mobility so bad it’s not even funny.
6 harlequins total? I’m sorry, where do you get this number from?

I don’t understand how you can think that 2 harlequins with fusion pistol and kiss, a shadowseer w. kiss, a troupemaster and 2 harlequins w. kiss costs 284 points.
There are 10 harlequins total, where 6 of them are regular ones with kiss and the remaining 4 are the more specially equipped.
The reason for all the confusion is that people dont usualy record the units like that, when a unit of 10 harlequins or 9 fire dragons is taken then the recorder states that 9 dragons total, one of which is an exarch(upgrade). Same as the harlies, you wrote down 6 harlies with kisses so 99% of the time people assume you are taking only a 6 man squad, one of which is a master, shadowseer and etc.

Most of the people record in the following manor:

10 Harlies - 6 kisses, 2 fusion guns
*Troup Master - PW
*Shadowseer - Kiss

Reason why is things like exarchs and troup masters are upgrades, their cost is paid on top of the standard squad trooper cost.

Also, I disagree about the foot dragons. The are very powerfull units and 99% ofthe people know that and without a doubt will be throwing every kind of HW and ordnance to destroy the unit before bothering with anything else. In fact they will probably attract more fire than the harlies.  Many people even keep them in a serpent from the beginning of the game without telling the opponent which serpent houses them so they dont get annihilated on turn one. When someone aks you have to tell them of course, but most people dont ask.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 03:15:30 AM by Nighthawk »

Offline Brutoni

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2010, 07:09:20 AM »
I’m not quite following you here. I have a 10 man harlequin squad, it is not possible to field a scorpion squad that is bigger than that. Secondly, how can you say that scorpions are more mobile than harlequins?
If you factor in outflanking/infiltrating which the scorpions can do, then yes the scorpions can have an initially bigger mobility than the harlequins, however, after they are on the table harlequins beat scorpions in mobility so bad it’s not even funny.
6 harlequins total? I’m sorry, where do you get this number from?

I don’t understand how you can think that 2 harlequins with fusion pistol and kiss, a shadowseer w. kiss, a troupemaster and 2 harlequins w. kiss costs 284 points.
There are 10 harlequins total, where 6 of them are regular ones with kiss and the remaining 4 are the more specially equipped.
The reason for all the confusion is that people dont usualy record the units like that, when a unit of 10 harlequins or 9 fire dragons is taken then the recorder states that 9 dragons total, one of which is an exarch(upgrade). Same as the harlies, you wrote down 6 harlies with kisses so 99% of the time people assume you are taking only a 6 man squad, one of which is a master, shadowseer and etc.

Most of the people record in the following manor:

10 Harlies - 6 kisses, 2 fusion guns
*Troup Master - PW
*Shadowseer - Kiss

Reason why is things like exarchs and troup masters are upgrades, their cost is paid on top of the standard squad trooper cost.

Also, I disagree about the foot dragons. The are very powerfull units and 99% ofthe people know that and without a doubt will be throwing every kind of HW and ordnance to destroy the unit before bothering with anything else. In fact they will probably attract more fire than the harlies.  Many people even keep them in a serpent from the beginning of the game without telling the opponent which serpent houses them so they dont get annihilated on turn one. When someone aks you have to tell them of course, but most people dont ask.

Have to say, if you read the list carefully and take note of the points it is not too difficult to see exactly what he has in the list. Especially if you also read his tactics section no?

As to foot slogging Fire dragons I love how you have turned a game of chance, skill and uncertainty into a definite result?

You don't like the option so you basically state "He will fire all heavy bolters and ignore your save and kill the unit first turn". Now I might sound rude here but.... what the hell happened to cover? Or deploying your fire dragons in an optimum position. What the hell happened to bait? Maybe he wants the fire dragons to attract a lot of fire. Even if they are wiped out by turn one because the entire enemy army fires on them... If he got the first turn he has now had 2 turns of minimal fire on his assault units etc. If he didn't then he has a turn to advance and so loses the initiative less.

In either case the fire dragons can serve their purpose. Really I think people need to stop being so "This will happen... I will counter this unit with that... The enemy WILL do this... If you have X unit in assault instead of shooting you are a terrible player... blah blah blah". It's really really starting to wind me up!

A brilliant quote is. "As soon as you engage the enemy they mess up your plans... that's why they are called your enemy". People really need to bear that in mind, a skilled player is not "rubbish" because a more skilled player isolates and engages a unit. Or because he was unlucky and a single shot took out his transport enabling the enemy to assault the transport.

Rex. I like the list, however I do think the comments about the Jet bikes are worth noting, I would merge them into 1 unit of 6 with 2 SC's. Maybe find the points for a warlock with a spear and destructor to give you a mobile scoring unit. Be prepared to hold them in reserve though as they have the potential to attract fire because they are a very mobile unit in a foot slogging list. Though as I tried to explain to someone above, you can use that to your advantage.

Also I kinda think the spear on the guardians is redundant myself, however perhaps that's something you can keep track of through your games and change at a latter date?

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2010, 07:38:51 AM »
Personally, I think that this might work excellently - however, it's pretty far from a "standard" setup of any kind I've seen so far.

Regarding the Fire Dragons - It's a big unit, has a decent save for an Eldar unit, and with the prevalence of Cover saves and a Fortune on them, they can survive a lot of punishment before going down. However, given that, their efficiency will be more dependant on the layout of the battlefield than many other units, and a bad battlefield could see them die early. That's pretty much a no-brainer though.

I like the potential synergies of the Avatar, Eldrad, Harlies, and Fire Dragons. Together, that's a pretty lethal assault force - moving 7"-12" for the first few turns, they will probably be able to close distance to the foe very quickly, and with so many nasty targets advancing so fast, that will probably also downplay the vulnerability of the Fire Dragons - that said, they are the most easily out-shot target in your hammer. Still, the saturation of models in your hammer might work wonders to get it alive and kicking ass up to the enemy lines.

Am a bit ambivalent regarding the jetbikes - you would have the added advantage of two scoring units that can turbo-boost, and if kept in reserve could prove to be game-winners in objective-grabbing scenarios if they come in late in the game. Also good for baiting and drawing fire. However, downsides are in small numbers and getting shot up easily - so far, also no-brainers. However: Given the general "slowness" of your list - compared to, for example, Mobile Tau or MechDar - I can see a problem if you run into more "jumpy" foes with faster lists. This might be another reason to consider reshaping them into one big unit with more firepower to chase down enemies that are good at hiding out of range of your footslogging hammer. Perhaps not the ultimate unit for such a task, but without making more serious changes to the list...

Other than that - I think it looks like you've got the numbers and tactics to make it work - you seem to have thought this through much more than I generally do with my lists.
Would be really interested to see a couple of battle reports with this list.

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2010, 08:55:20 AM »
You don't like the option so you basically state "He will fire all heavy bolters and ignore your save and kill the unit first turn". Now I might sound rude here but.... what the hell happened to cover? Or deploying your fire dragons in an optimum position. What the hell happened to bait? Maybe he wants the fire dragons to attract a lot of fire. Even if they are wiped out by turn one because the entire enemy army fires on them... If he got the first turn he has now had 2 turns of minimal fire on his assault units etc. If he didn't then he has a turn to advance and so loses the initiative less.
You do sound rude during your post, but I don't think anyone really minds. In any case, that was actually me who mentioned the heavy bolters, though the other guy made some statements vaguely to the same effect. Here's my rhetorical backup:

The fundamental issue with Foot Dragons boils down to a confluence of several problems:
  • They have short range.
  • They have the fairly bad default Aspect Warrior T and Sv.
  • They do not have any mobility enhancement.
Take away any of these weaknesses and they're excellent. If they had more range, you could stick them in cover and they'd get a few rounds off before being blown away. If they were tough and had good saves, we'd call them Wraithguard and walk them up the middle with Fortune, and entire army lists would be based around them. If they were fast, they'd be called "Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent" and would be the staple of all manner of Eldar armies.

However, being fragile, slow, AND short-ranged, they are doomed. Sticking them in cover will keep them alive, but then you're either relying on some excellent cover placement and good rolls, or for the enemy to come to you before they die. If you want to minimize the "slow and short-ranged" weaknesses by running them full tilt at the enemy in the fastest, most direct path, you have to leave your cover. Basically, it's a bad scenario unless you have very favorable cover placement. If these guys attract too much fire at all, they die like most Eldar do.

The final nail in the Fire Dragon coffin is that they are AWESOME. They're cheap and have some of the best guns in the Eldar arsenal. They crush vehicles, MEQs, TEQs, Bikers, Wraithguard, MCs, WHATEVER in like one round of shooting. Multi kitted Nobs? Meet Instant Death, no FNP, no saves, what have you. Stick a DB Flamer and Crack shot on them and they'll crush swarms, also. These guys are ridiculous.

Everyone knows this, and any commander worth his salt will throw many wrenches at the "shoot stuff with Fire Dragons" plan. In my games, I regularly am unable to shoot with my Fire Dragon Wave Serpents at all due to the volume of fire they draw. I'm either turbo boosting or shaken almost all game until either the Dragons or the Serpent are dead. If that amount of Autocannon / Missile Pod / Impaler Cannon were hitting the Fire Dragons themselves they'd be gone in an instant.

"But wait," you say, "they remain useful as a Fire (heh) magnet!"
This is a good contention. Let's see what in their list competes in target saturation. The list has a # of vehicles, a pile of guardians, an Avatar, some off-table jetbikes and a Harlie squad. Basically, the Avatar and Vehicles don't share target saturation status with Fire Dragons at all. The Harlie squad WOULD, but veil of tears will keep them safe during the early turns, when I expect the Dragons to be shot at, so I'm going to say "no" to that.

The kind of Fire that Dragons (there I am with the puns again!) will take will mostly be high-volume low-strength fire that may not even pierce their armor. Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, MAAYYYYBE Autocannons (but probably not) and MAYYYBE Assault Cannons. This is mostly stuff that's wounding them on 2+ or 3+. Even with a 4+ rerollable save ( fortune) these guys will not last terribly long against this sort of fire due to AP, so it's what you'd expect the enemy to aim at them. Where does this sort of fire normally go? Other low T Eldar units with poor saves on foot in that list. So basically, if they're bait, the fire dragons are baiting for your Guardians. And although Guardians are huge ballers who hustle every day and live the high life etc, I don't think baiting for Guardians with Fire Dragons is good. It's not my call, tactically, but it's an opinion of mine that I think should be taken into consideration.

In either case the fire dragons can serve their purpose. Really I think people need to stop being so "This will happen... I will counter this unit with that... The enemy WILL do this... If you have X unit in assault instead of shooting you are a terrible player... blah blah blah". It's really really starting to wind me up!
Yup, those people who mention that sort of thing sound bad, calling people terrible players and all that. I don't think there's any of them in this thread though. I think stating that certain units have certain weaknesses with respect to certain parts of an army is not unfair, however. I've laid out some reasons I think Foot Dragons are difficult to use tactically in this post, and I hope you take a look when you get the chance.

A brilliant quote is. "As soon as you engage the enemy they mess up your plans... that's why they are called your enemy". People really need to bear that in mind, a skilled player is not "rubbish" because a more skilled player isolates and engages a unit. Or because he was unlucky and a single shot took out his transport enabling the enemy to assault the transport.
I prefer "no plan survives contact with the enemy," but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a plan, and that it shouldn't attempt to at least partially be carried out, especially as an Eldar player. I find that our race leaves little room for error in play.

For Heavy AT options on foot, also consider Wraithguard or Storm Guardian squads with Fusion Guns and Singng Spear Locks attached. Both of those units can take a few hits before their AT power goes down significantly. As I previously stated, if the FDs work for you, keep them as is.
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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2010, 06:59:53 PM »
I intend to do a review of this list down the road, because for it's format it's really quite spectacular. But let me get into the discussion at hand by saying this:

If you accept and understand that using an Eldar list without gravtanks is, more or less, not the sort of army the codex is meant to field, and that the match is naturally going to be difficult - I think it's hard to find a lot of criticism for the units being chosen. You could make a lot of substitutions to gain effectiveness but in the end it would lose its feel quite a lot.

To some players, the feel of an army is important enough to sacrifice efficiency. That need is what gets you an army list like this.

Actually, I think I'll just jump right in with a review after all:

Quote
Background: 1.0
Theme, theatre, enemy and goals will each be worth .25 pts

YOu've got this section licked, and it makes the rest of the critique a lot easier to do. It also makes reading and discussion a lot more fun, so thanks ;)

Quote
Composition: .5
1 - FOC slot variation - a roughly equal distribution of choices along the FOC
2 - Unit variation - avoids unit repetition and utilizes units with a variety of roles
3 - Scoring units - essentially, requires 1 scoring unit per 500 pts
4 - Kill Points - no more than 1KP + 3 KP for each 500 pts or part thereof [so 13 KPs at 2000 pts, or 7 at 750, etc]

The scoring units and KP facets of the list are in alignment with the point level its designed for. The FOC slot variation ignores fast attack options which, while normally not a huge issue with Eldar armies due to heavy mechanization options, is a potential issue here due to the lack of transports in the army as a whole. Unit variation is actually fairly poor with heavy redundancy, though this is mitigated somewhat by the units on an FOC basis it's still a potential problem. Think of it like this: Rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, paper beats rock. If you put identical scissors in your list 4 times, and your opponent has the right rock, he can break all your scissors with relatively little worry :). While guardians with scatter lasers make for excellent scissors, a simple switch to one unit of stormguard with meltas could be a big help. They can offset the presence of a single fire dragon unit, especially since you've got Eldrad and therefore guide, playing forwards and supporting your other units with a couple of melta shots on a different area of the board. This also wouldn't change the feel of the list too much. Redundancy can be useful as well, though - and keep in mind that my scores are hard to get a perfect 1 in any given area since the requirements in each subsection might be at odds with each other.

Quote
Utility: .5
.25 - each unit's main function is specified
.25 - each unit has no unnecessary upgrades
.25 - each unit can reasonably expect to accomplish its primary goal in 1 round
.25 - each unit is optimized for morale

You've got your unit roles set out and defined, and you've got good squad sizes for what you intend to accomplish - the midsized guardians are perfectly fine. I actually think the small jetbike teams are just fine; it's the minimal investment required to have an option that wouldn't otherwise be present, and I honestly feel an enemy gets more mileage out of shooting a bigger block of jetbikes than they do out of putting a full unit's firepower into one squad. For the points this is actually the most sensible option, and it can score more easily on two objectives than a single unit might. There's reasonable expectation of completion of primary roles within one round once lines close, but the list has a lot of upgrades that might not be that important. Almost a hundred points in warlocks that add no leadership balance could be converted into a full dedicated AT unit or a 6th scoring unit, for instance, both of which have a sharper focus than the more generalized units present in the list. When you list your shooting options, for instance, your Wraithguard are listed as anti-infantry and anti-tank. Rarely will they do both in the same turn though, so your overall effectiveness is half that which you portray :). You've got some room to grow in this category, but you've got a very good start.

Quote
Flexibility: .75
.25 - army as a whole exhibits unit role redundancy
.25 - units in army can perform multiple roles [secondary roles listed with unit]
.25 - army has a mix of shooting and combat, quality and quantity
.25 - army has multiple means of deployment/engagement

High marks for redundancy, versatility and method of engagement. I like to build units like this and in a foot-oriented army, it is often more necessary to have your units capable of completing multiple goals than being focused on a single role because you lack the mobility to dictate the flow of the battle and get stuck fighting on your opponent's terms. And while it's nice to have guardians equipped with no warlock and a shuriken cannon to get as much S4 for the points as possible, it's also frustrating when that squad gets assaulted by a dread or somesuch and can't dig itself out, and nothing else on that side of the board is available to lend a hand :). You've got little alternate means of deployment though, and while the walkers and Eldrad offset this a tiny bit, and the jetbikes do help some, quite often you're going to get stuck playing damage control while your opponent keeps throwing punches.

Quote
Ingenuity - a strategic write-up that includes: .75
.25 - a battleplan of some sort, hopefully with a list of turn goals [by turn 1...]
.25 - recognition of your army's weaknesses
.25 - combos and unit synergies explicitly described
.25 - something new that I haven't seen attempted frequently.

A little bit more discussion of your weaknesses and how you intend to mitigate them might be in order - you've presented the positives of a list people are going to criticize very clearly and thoughtfully, but you can preempt some of the sting of criticism by anticipating what might get seen in a negative light and having an answer for it. However, you've really got your army's strengths covered quite well, how the units relate to each other, and most important [to me], the army was very interesting because it's not something getting attempted much these days, lol. Someone drops 10 skimmers on the table opposite me and I think to myself, "Here's Eldar playing Eldar's game" and pretty much know how things are going to go. If I saw something like this I'd be more inclined to think "Interesting! I'm not entirely sure what my opponent is thinking here - this is going to be entertaining!" - and this can translate to extra soft score points. And in a competitive environment, that's a good thing!

Your final score's a 3.5 which is pretty good given that certain areas of my scoring system work against each other intentionally. If you're looking for some ideas on how to improve, here's some I might suggest:

-storm guardians with meltas - you get two wounds per point to the dragon's 1, and the squad scores on top of it. With guide you're likely to only need the two meltas to wreck a tank, and the unit can afford to be up front and running in the early stages of the game, providing much needed cover to units behind it. Since you don't need to worry about casualties so much - after all, 8 guardians have to die before the squad's not completing it's role [anti-tank duties], this sort of sacrifice is affordable and may not actually cost you anything. Something to consider.

-warp spiders - Let's take a look at this for a second:
3 warwalkers w/ dual scatterlasers: 180pts, 24 shots, 12 hits @ S6
7 warp spiders, 1 upgraded to exarch w/ dual spinner: 171pts, 16 shots, ~11 hits @ S6
The spiders, however, can be fortuned, and with their MEQ save make an excellent skirmish screen for the rest of your guardian blocks. Providing cover is the name of the game here! Also, while they're AP is lower than the warwalkers, they'll often be able to position for penetrating hits better, meaning they have a better chance of hunting vehicles.

-more guardian bodies - Here, it's simple. Extra bodies pump out extra catapult shots, extra wounds protect stormguard meltas longer. In either case you can actually fortune a guardian team if desired, and 14 fortuned guardians takes a surprisingly long time to kill, much moreso than 10. Just food for thought.

All in all I really like this list, and I've got a feeling it can do a bit better than others might think at first glance!

Offline moc065

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2010, 01:04:40 PM »

HQ:
Eldrad                                                                            2XX pts      
Avatar                                                                           1XX pts      

Troops:
10 Guardians, Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden, spear           128 pts      
10 Guardians, Scatter Laser, Warlock, Embolden, spear           128 pts      
10 Guardians, Scatter Laser, Warlock, Destructor, spear          133 pts
3 Guardian Jetbikes                                                            66 pts
3 Guardian Jetbikes                                                            66 pts
      
Elites:
6 Harlequins, w.  6 kiss                        
        TroopeMaster, Power Weapon
        2x Fusion Pistols, w. kiss
        Shadowseer w. kiss
                                                                              Total: 286 pts

8 Fire Dragons
        Exarch, firepike, Crack shot, Tank Hunters
                                                                              Total: 184 pts
Heavy Support:
3X War Walkers 2xScatter Laser                                           180 pts      
Wraithlord, 2x flamers, BL, EML                                             155 pts      
Wraithlord, 2x flamers, BL, EML                                             155 pts      

Total: 1846 pts

65 models, 12KPs, 5 Scoring Units


moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential 2 dedicated Anti-tank unit that can work at range, the rest is on foot or simply support anti-tank, Yes it can work if the target priority is done well, and the opponent doesn't have a lot of armour; but vs a Leaf Blower, or a Full Mech list it is lacking. Thus I score it as average at best 6/10
2.. Anti-MEQ potential No dedicated Anti-MEQ but I do like the way it can use mass shooting or Rending to still have potential in this area. Again I only rate it as average at best though, so a 6/10
3.. Anti-Horde potential Here is does well with plenty of horde shooting with decent range and rate of fire. It also has stuff to deal with the odd MC or Vehicle within a horde, so in this reagard I see one of its best traits and rate it as Good. 8/10
4.. Ranged Firepower potential I see good medium range weaponry and some long ranged weaponry for a decent mix. Things like the GJB's not having a Cannon do hurt a little, and a ride to get the FD's on sight would have helped as well; but overall I do see it as a little above average. 7/10
5.. Assault potential Where ? The Avatar is good, the Harelquins are good and so are the Lords; but none of them work that well together in combined assaults (enemy hits lessers to hurt big guys, fearless factor can work against you, etc) I do see potential in this area; but it will be tricky to use them as front line assaulters instead of counter-assault units and thus I rate it as average at best 6/10
6.. Scoring Units / point level 5 Scoring units does give it potential; but the Minimal GJB squads are a right off and would be better done up as a single unit with an Emboldened Warlock in it, etc. Guardians are ok, as the Avatar can be used to keep them in line; but this tactic will be best used on the Destructor squad as otherwise you limit the movement to much. Overall it is decent though and thus I rate it as slightly above average 7/10
7.. Durability or Resilience I see some good resilient things like the Lords and the Avatar and even Harlies if used well. The Guardians do have some resilience buff's built in; but the GJB's are a liability, and the Walkers almost need to outfalnk or their done in to quickly. Big E is a great helper, and so is the Avatar so overall I do see it around average 7/10
8.. Flexability Its not that flexible for how it works, Eldrad fortunes as needed, dooms to help shooting, etc. Avatar uses 1-2 Guardian units to advance and keep the shooting going, Walker Outflank most of the time, GJB's go into reserves and try to stay out of the game until late game grabs can take place, etc. Its not a bad plan; but there is very little for a back up plan, and thus I rate it slightly below average 5/10
9.. Mission Capabiliy I don't see any glaring deficiencies for any mission, in fact I like it for almost any mission aside from the fact that it is predictable. I still rate it as good though 8/10
10. Dynamics and/or Theme Its a classic Hybrid theme from 4th Edition with some 5th Edition tweeks to it, I do like it overall but it could use some tweeking still so that it works smoother overall and becomes less predictatble. It is a good theme though and its uses classic Eldar combo's to get the job done. Thus I rate it as good 8/10

Rating = 6.8/10 Some will rate if differently; but I see this as a list that would do well in most local scenes and be a lot of fun for both sides of the battlefield. I do not see it as being as competitive as the Mech-Eldar lists, nor do I see it as a super strong Hybrid list as it could use some easy tweeks to make it leaner and more effecient overall. Nice list though, and it has great potential to adjust as you alter units, etc.

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Offline ReX

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Re: Competative Footdar 1850pts (Please Rate)
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2010, 03:35:12 PM »
Thanks for the reviews and all the comments!

I’m certainly far from finished learning things when it comes to both building lists and playing with the Eldar army.

I agree with a lot of the points made here and I will use some of it to further develop my foot based lists and for some play testing in the time after the tourney. I'm sorry, but I don’t have that much time now to answer the different points in much detail.

First off, the comments about the unusual and maybe confusing layout of the army list is noted, and I will do it different next time around.

Regarding the fire dragons I agree completely that they are far from optimal when fielded on foot. However, in the games where I have played against lists with strong shooting, like IG, I have found them to draw the fire that would otherwise have been directed on my scoring units and they have also taken some heat from the Avatar/WLs. At least in the games I have played this have worked out nice for me, as I have felt that this gives the rest of my army some “breathing room”. And I’m more or less happy as long as the exarch stays alive, as he is the real badass in that squad. ;)
I’m not saying I’m totally sold on these guys, but they have served me well in around 15 games thus far and I’m willing to give them a shot in this tourney.

Regarding the reviews, thanks both to Gutstikk and moc065 for some very insightful feedback. I will most likely look into fielding some warp spiders in the list. I will also try to use a storm guardian squad with 2xfusion guns and a lock with spear and destructor as one of the scoring units that will advance together with Avatar & Co. The guardian jet bikes will likely stay as they are for some time in order for me to get some experience how well this setup works for me.

I think that moc065 more or less hit the nail on the head with this sentence, regarding something I consider one of the biggest weaknesses of this list:
9.. Mission Capabiliy I don't see any glaring deficiencies for any mission, in fact I like it for almost any mission aside from the fact that it is predictable.
So in the future I will look into ways of making it a bit more “unpredictable” and flexible. Although it is not always that easy when you are limiting your list to units which are on foot, however, as mentioned before the fast attack slot might help me out a bit there.

Anyways, as long as I can stay fairly competitive I will keep on trying to make foot lists work, and hell will freeze over, or a new codex will come out (I don’t know what will happen first) before you see me meching up! ;)

And as mentioned earlier I will try and post battlereports as soon as possible after the tournament. I'm looking forward to some good fights. :)

Again, thank you for your feedback!


 


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