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Author Topic: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review  (Read 2805 times)

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Offline Shinrathir

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1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« on: April 3, 2008, 08:32:12 AM »
Hello... I'm sorry to be posting this on a seperate thread... but when I posted my working list a few weeks back I had no idea that there was a grading system available for Eldar lists on this site and that only your first posted list would be adjudicated.  So... having received all of your helpful advice on the working list... (and reviewd your criteria) I'd like to post a more polished product for your review.  Thank-you for your time and your help.

120pts. Farseer: Guide, Doom, Spirit Stones

182pts. 9 x Howling Banshees + Exarch (Executioner)
135pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Bright Lance

113pts. 5 x Fire Dragons + Exarch (Dragon’s Breath, Crack Shot)

105pts. 10 x Guardians + Star Cannon

162pts. 9 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield,
             Bladestorm)
100pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon

162pts. 9 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Defend)
100pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon

158pts. 5 x Swooping Hawks + Exarch (Sunrifle, Intercept)

196pts. 6 x Warp Spider + Exarch (Spinneret Rifle, Powerblades, Withdraw)

175 pts. 5 x Dark Reapers

140pts. Falcon; Star Cannon

Total points: 1849
Model Count: 65 + 4 Vehicles
Scoring Units: 9

Background:The list I’m fielding represents a Craft World of my own design, and is loosely based around the Swordwind concept:  Very fast, lots of aspect warriors, with a few militia elements to round out the force (The Eldar are supposed to be a dying race after all… not that you’d know it if you ever play against them in Dawn of War…).  I’d like to think of it as an all-comers list for three reasons:

1)  I like balanced lists as they allow you to simply pick up and play any opponent with a reasonable chance of success.

2)  I feel that it’s a matter of sportsmanship to not custom tailor your force to annihilate a particular enemy.  (Besides… anyone can do that!)

3)  Embarrassingly… I really don’t know who I’ll be facing.  I’ve still got a fair few models to paint and I just moved to a new… far more rural area… because of my work.  I’m pretty sure there’s a gaming club in town… but you’ve kind of got to make a special trip to go.  When I do go, however, I want to have a fairly large… balanced… and completely painted army with which I can play… or participate in a local tournament with.



Concept:   The general strategy behind this list is to take advantage of the Eldar’s two main strengths:  Speed and Specialization.  By keeping most of my units very mobile… I can deploy in two wings that can threaten my opponents from either side in a classic pincer… or rapidly redeploy to refuse a flank and crush a part of their army in detail.

The speed of the army also helps to play to the specialized nature of Aspect Warriors.  As each unit tends to excel at one thing… I’ve tried to make sure that each unit is sufficiently mobile so that they’ll be in a position to do that thing wherever and whenever needed.

Finally, speed is also quite good for taking objectives.  Whether it’s the first turn or the last turn… this army has the speed to get the mission done.

As a side note, redundancy and target saturation are also considerations for this list.  Part of the idea is to have enough units threatening my opponents force simultaneously that they don’t concentrate fire... and that the units are resilient enough to still be a viable threat by the time they’re finished.

I’ve also included some deliberate redundancy because I don’t want to have only one unit available to do a single job.  Even a relatively inexperienced player like myself knows that I’d be asking for trouble if I did that.

Unit Breakdown:

Farseer:   The Farseer will either travel with my Bladestorming Dire Avengers if I’ll be fighting aggressively… or under cover (and out of sight if possible) near my Dark Reapers if I’ll be fighting defensively.  The Farseer’s mission is to cast Guide on either the Avengers or Reapers and Doom their target.

Please note:   As I have absolutely no experiece with conversions... I have made a conscious decision to not field my Farseer on a Jetbike.  I know this is a popular option... I can see the merit in it... and I'd probably try it if I felt more confident... but at this particular time in my life... I don't want to do it.

If accompanying the Avengers… the Farseer will most likely opt to cast Doom on the Banshee’s target instead… as the Avengers will have disembarked a turn earlier to provide cover fire for the Banshees as they assault.

Banshees: A dedicated assault unit whose sole purpose is to break and annihilate a unit in close combat.  The Exarch carries an Executioner to ensure that they’ll be able to wound most things and their Wave Serpent comes equipped with Bright Lances to ensure they’ll be able to crack open enemy transports… or ward off the odd rampaging Dreadnaught.

Dragons:   Dragons will serve as dedicated tank and elite infantry hunters.  The Falcon will serve as their transport… and they’ll mostly try to stay out of the way of the enemy until a juicy target presents itself (i.e.  one that’s worth more points than they are… or is sufficiently isolated to make it worth the risk).  To this end, the Exarch has the Dragon’s Breath Flamer and Crack shot… to ensure enough wounds are inflicted on an enemy unit… and that horde armies don’t neutralize this unit’s effectiveness.

It’s my hope, that in employing my Dragons in this fashion… that they’ll be more flexible and it’ll offset the limitation of having a Falcon for a transport (i.e. Escalation).    

Guardians: Guardians are present to add numbers to the force and serve as a screening unit for the Dark Reapers and are equipped for anti-infantry duty.  If needed, they should also be mobile enough to lend a hand in objective taking… but this would be a bit of a stretch.

1st Avengers: The first squad of Avengers (the one’s with defend) will team up with the Warp Spiders and form one wing of the army.  They’re goal is to harass and draw units away from the main force… hopefully leaving them vulnerable to one of two scenarios.  1)  They stray a little too close and they can be picked on by both the Avengers and Spiders.  Or 2) they manage to assault the Avengers… and then the Warp Spiders keep diving in and out of combat while the Avengers hold them up.

In a pinch… this unit could also serve as an assault unit… but I’d need to be pretty sure about my reasons for committing it to an assault.

2nd Avengers: The second squad of Avengers (the one’s with bladestorm) will team up with the Howling Banshees and form the other wing of  the army.  They’re goal is to provide a bodyguard for the Farseer and fire support for the Banshees.  They will deploy with they’re Wave Serpent screening them (as they can shoot under it… and my opponent can’t assault through it) and then try to lure or force an enemy into closing with them.  The Banshees will then assault a doomed opponent while the Guided Avengers Blade Storm another (or the same one if it’s something like 8 Death Guard Terminators).  This should allow the Avengers time to recoup while the Banshees get the critical charge.

Hawks:   The Swooping Hawks are here for anti-tank purposes.  They will target lurking tanks, skimmers, Land Raiders… whatever’s needed to get the job done.  When they’re not tank-hunting… or they’re no tanks to hunt… I’ll use them as skirmishers to harass enemy lines and pin low leadership units with the sunrifle.  Grenade packs are useful against hordes too.

Spiders:   This unit is designed to complement the flanking Avengers… taking out low AV transports… harassing enemy lines… and providing a bit of close combat punch as needed.  To this end the Exarch has withdraw, powerblades and a spinneret rife (because pinning an enemy unit in front of a squad of Dire Avengers is always a good idea).

Reapers:   This unit provides a fire base and a pivot point around which the wings can work.  It’s supposed to be points light enough that I don’t mind loosing it… but scary enough that the enemy feels obligated to deal with it… and the way I see it… any shots not directed at my transports are wasted.  My basic idea for a fire plan is to set up in cover with good LOS and then pick one unit a turn to kill/cripple before moving on to the next target.

Falcon:   Basically a glorified transport for my Dragons.  It’s been given star cannons in order to optimize it for assisting the Dragons in their role of elite infantry killers… but can go tank hunting if needed.  I don’t have any upgrades on this tank… or any other… because for me at least… I’ve found them to be a waste of points.  Not because they’re ineffective… but because my luck’s so bad with them that it’s almost like throwing good points after bad.  So for me… no upgrades means less victory points per shot for my opponent.


Well... that's pretty much it.  Thanks again for your time... and I'm looking forward to your review.  Oh... and Moc65... you can keep the old list up as a teaching tool if you'd like.  I learned a lot from your posts... so hopefully others will too.
« Last Edit: April 3, 2008, 04:23:54 PM by Shinrathir »
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Offline tegeus-Cromis

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #1 on: April 3, 2008, 12:35:17 PM »
Quote
Falcon:   Basically a glorified transport for my Dragons.  It’s been given star cannons in order to optimize it for assisting the Dragons in their role of elite infantry killers… but can go tank hunting if needed.  I don’t have any upgrades on this tank… or any other… because for me at least… I’ve found them to be a waste of points.  Not because they’re ineffective… but because my luck’s so bad with them that it’s almost like throwing good points after bad.  So for me… no upgrades means less victory points per shot for my opponent.

The worse your "luck" (a term I have nothing but contempt for, but never mind that) is, the more you need H-field and SS. Plus, you're so sure that the Falcon will die that you don't believe 45 pts of survivability upgrades is worthwhile--yet you're happy to put an expensive gun and an even more expensive squad on/in it? Does. Not. Compute.

That aside:

The Wave Serpents need Spirit Stones.

The spinneret rifle is, in my experience, not as good as the dual spinners.

How will your Farseer Doom things successfully if he's riding in a transport? You can't cast from within one, and since you can only use Doom and Guide at the start of the turn, your DAs will not be able to benefit from either when they need the help most. The Farseer needs a bike to do the job.

Offline Shinrathir

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #2 on: April 3, 2008, 04:20:15 PM »
I think I'm going to need to take a deep breath before responding to your post tegeus-Cromis.

I apologize if I sound irritated... but you've done very little except criticize a calculated choice on my part to not upgrade my vehicles in favour of fielding a few more troops.

Yes... I used the term luck... (which the last time I checked was a factor in this game) but what I was trying to say as politely as possible... is that I don't believe the wargear makes enough of a difference to justify the cost... when experience and clever use of terrain will probably do the job just as well.  Others... including yourself... may well disagree.  Time and experience may well prove me wrong... and I'm willing to be proven wrong... but at present... I don't want to upgrade my transports.

As to the gun... it makes perfect sense.  A star cannon complements the mission the Falcon is tailored for... and as I must purchase a weapon... I have chosen the weapon most suited to its purpose.

As for the Farseer... I suppose this one's partially my fault and I'll amend my post as soon as I'm finished with this one.  I'm a poor modeler... and I don't want to convert a Farseer on a Jetbike at this point in time.  But your other commment isn't really pertinent.  I'm well aware that I can't use psychic powers while in the transport and I adressed this in my post.  That's why the Avengers will be getting out first.

I can shoot up to 18"... and most things I'd want to shoot at won't be able to charge 18"... especially not if I put my Wave Serpent between them and me.  That means that next turn... when I really want to start using those psychic powers... he'll be outside his transport and able to cast away.

You're probably right about the Spinneret rifle though... and I might try changing it at some point.


Finally... on a more personal note... you said you felt nothing but contempt for my choice of wording... and your contempt clearly showed in your post.  But contempt isn't a good place to begin offering constructive criticism and I'd strongly urge you to reconsider responding in such a fashion to some of the younger and newer members of this board.  Yes... we're inexperienced... and yes... we may inadvertently do things to frustrate you... but surely we don't deserve your contempt.

That beings said, however, I do want to express my thanks for your intrest in my post and the time you took to reply to it.
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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #3 on: April 3, 2008, 07:14:22 PM »
I'll tackle this, because it will be good to have a link to a list that describes itself as finished for the purposes of review, and because I'd like to show some respect to a newer player. You will be receiving a score from me using the 5/5 system as outlined in the Big List of Eldar Lists in the stickies on this board. Following is the critique I have given:

Background: 1
You've gone to great lengths to explain why you've chosen the units you ahve and how you intend to use them, as well as explaining your situation regarding your likely opponents. You hint a little bit at your background material, though it has not been included; if there are restrictions imposed on your list due to your background this would be good to share. All in all though, a very thorough job of presenting an army list.

Composition: .5
A good chunk of this list is allocated to non-scoring units, which could prove dangerous depending on how the rest of your army fares. Some of these units do not present too great a threat in themselves. You do have an excellent array of units though, with a lot of variety in the functions they will fill on the battlefield. You have only selected one combat-focused unit however, and at the 1850 level 2-3 would be much better, as enemy assaults are capable of shutting down your shooting. You've selected a good number of troops choices with an emphasis on volume of fire, and back this firepower up with some nice quality firepower in your heavy support and elite sections. You incorporate a good deal of mobility with a fair model count and a good quantity of units.

Utility: .5
Guide is an unnecessary power in this list; you will be causing yourself more trouble trying to take advantage of it than benefitting from it. Units that most benefit from Guide are ones that scatter or have a high quantity of BS3 gunfire [walkers, vyper squads, guardians, and support batteries/Tempest Launcher Reaper Exarchs]. Spirit Stones are unnecessary if you lose Guide.

Wave serpents are somewhat disposable if they need to be, but their cargo is not. Vectored Engines should almost be mandatory; they will prevent entanglement [somewhat] and heavy casualties due to crashes [moreso]. To not include them actually worsens the ability of this vehicle to do it's primary job [get the squad to its target in one piece]. The points spent on the farseer's guide+stones would be better spent here.

Banshees, Dragons, and Guardians are all quite nicely suited to their roles.

The Avengers are actually better suited to bladestorm as it is generally quite difficult for them to peel themselves out of combat once it is initiated. Defend will lessen the damage they receive in combat, but bladestorm does so as well by eliminating those who would make return attacks. The points are the same; you may wish to consider a swap, especially for situations where you need to eliminate an enemy who you will not be able to charge.

The reapers and Spiders are good; the spinneret rifle isn't quite as nasty to vehicles or swarms as the dual spinners and can inflict the same kind of casualties through "death by armor save," since every shot is likely to hit and wound. I like to see aspectless squads where it makes sense [the reapers in particular].

I would like to point out that falcons do benefit from some form of survivability upgrade [and I went for a year before buying Holofields]. This is because the squad and the tank itself are an expensive combination that need to be able to complete at least 1 "mission" [such as obliterating an enemy Talos near where you want your Howling Banshess to strike, as the banshees typically cannot wound a Talos due to their STR vs its Toughness, and because the Talos will quite happily destroy your Banshees]. That being said, if you've experienced bad luck with boxcars on those glancing hits, the simple spirit stones upgrade adds a lot to the falcon, and the Vectored Engines make it fairly unlikely that a single hit will harm the Falcon's cargo. One or the other would be helpful; in one turn you could easily be in striking distance of your target. I use Falcons as a two-squad transport, so that I don't mind buying holofields as I'm only buying 1 falcon rather than 2.

Flexibility: .5
The units you have selected, along with their upgrades, make for a generally strong list where flexibility is concerned. Doom helps your mid-strength weapons vs enemy units with high toughness, and you have a few decent AT rounds you can pump out, which can be supported in need by side/rear shots from your faster squads. You don't have too many repeat weaknesses, except that you do not make the best use of SMF for your skimmers, which could pose a problem for their continued existence as well as for their passengers. You lack a strong presence in the Assault phase, which will hurt your army vs an enemy who moves at great speed with assault-oriented units. In the event of a first-turn charge some of your critical support units may get rendered ineffective.

Ingenuity: .5
You discuss your plans for each unit and consider several different angles, but the critical weaknees of this army in the assualt phase is not addressed. This will be your biggest difficulty against a variety of opponents, especially those who play faster armies that are combat oriented. You sound unsure of some of your plans [such as giving Avengers some combat upgrades and yet questioning the notion of committing them to assault - better not to spend the points on an option you'll hesitate to use and invest them elsewhere]. Fundamentally this is the biggest problem you will face.

You should consider a firing order for your Reapers/Guardians/Falcon, as these three units pack firepower that is good against the same sort of targets. 21 shots that beat most armor merits careful consideration of its usage, so that you waste the least amount of shots possible. Probably Reapers/Falcon/Guardians is the best order, with the Falcon picking a secondary target should the reapers kill the primary one.

Your firedragons will be better working with your banshees, as the banshees can lock up enemy squads in combat and protect the dragons from return firepower a little bit.

Figuring stuff like this out ine advance saves time on the field of battle; having some good combos or a "playbook" to consult in the heat of battle can greatly improve decision-making under duress.

Total Score: 3, for a good army list.
Some kinks could still be worked out with upgrades and strategy; however, this list could be fielded and stand a decent chance of success. It may take stronger generalship to pull this list through in some situations. Others might be able to look at your write-up, field this list and expect a chance at victory.

Offline Shinrathir

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #4 on: April 3, 2008, 09:22:09 PM »
Thanks Gutstikk...  really appreciate the feed back.  I knew I probably still had a ways to go... but this list is so much better polished than the last one (again thanks to help from this board) that I wanted see how it faired as I've really lavished some time on the list.

Once again... you've given me lots to think about.  The Farseer probably is over equiped... and swapping out the Spinneret and Defend for a DDS and Bladestorm might be a better way to go.

If I could pose a question though; I know this list is a lot weaker in the Assault phase than I'd like it to be, but I've been having trouble juggling the points around.  I'm trying (desperately) to keep my troops choices above the minimum... my model count up (as Eldar can die pretty quick)... and my number of scoring units from dropping any further... while still maintaing a high degree of mobility.  Would you be willing to make a suggestion on how I might consider resolving my close combat deficency?  I'd certainly be willing to entertain it.
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Offline moc065

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #5 on: April 3, 2008, 09:28:07 PM »

120pts. Farseer: Guide, Doom, Spirit Stones

182pts. 9 x Howling Banshees + Exarch (Executioner)
135pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Bright Lance

113pts. 5 x Fire Dragons + Exarch (Dragon’s Breath, Crack Shot)

105pts. 10 x Guardians + Star Cannon

162pts. 9 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield,
             Bladestorm)
100pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon

162pts. 9 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Defend)
100pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon

158pts. 5 x Swooping Hawks + Exarch (Sunrifle, Intercept)

196pts. 6 x Warp Spider + Exarch (Spinneret Rifle, Powerblades, Withdraw)

175 pts. 5 x Dark Reapers

140pts. Falcon; Star Cannon

Total points: 1849: Model Count: 65 + 4 Vehicles: Scoring Units: 9

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential; Almost every unit has either dedicated anti-tank or side/rear armour potential, so this depart is generall covered well, Good (.8 )
2.. Anti-MEQ potential; Good mix of AP=3 or better shooting, power weapons, and a fw good combo's that all add up to cover this department as well, Good (.8 )
3.. Anti-Horde potential; Mass fire weapons, numbers for Close Combat, range/speed combo's, so you have covered this department as well, Good (8 )
4.. Ranged Firepower potential; Almost every unit has range/speed firepower potential and there are afew real nasty combo's as well, so this department is, Very Good (.9)
5.. Assault potential; One dedicated Assault unit and few that are decent for holding or support as well as a couple combo's, so this is just Average (.6)
6.. Scoring Units / point level; 9 Scoring units is not great at 1850, in fact its about Average (.6)
7.. Durability or Resilience; Soft vehicles, a lot of fragile units, so overall this department needs work immediately, Poor (.2) But I will add a few comments here, things like Spirit Stones on Skimmers, Holo-Fields on the Falcon, Skyleap, Defend, Exarch's, Numbers, and non-terrain dependant Saves make a huge difference. I would actually suggest that you drop or trim a unit in order to augment all the other stuff better.
8.. Flexability; Imagine a Drop Pod army, a Chaos CC machine, Hybrid Eldar, Nidzilla, Assault Cannon Spam, etc and then think about how this army would deal with them, I think that it could do well agaisnt certain things; but too many races/styles would have a field day against it; I see it as being realitively easy to break down and deconstruct in battle, as it is quite Predictable, Sorry but this is another area that I feel needs work as it is, Well Below Average (.3 )
9.. Mission Capabiliy; Now, you actually look you tired to cover a lot of the standard missions with this one, except you left out Escalation that will be about 1/3 of your games, all Mech lists have this difficulty; but there are things you can do to helpout (like the addition of an Autarch, and ground based units), thus I see the list as being, Slightly Below Average (.5)
10. Dynamics and/or Theme; I can see certain parts of the list working well together; but I still see some disfunctional parts as well, overall I feel that its just, Average (.6)

Rating = 5.5 Others may score it differently; but I see this as a list that is designed for "Fun" play, and to gain experience with a variety of very diverse units. There is nothing wrong with its concept, and in the handds of a good general with some terrain and some luck it could do well. I just don't feel that its the type of list that is ready for "All Comers" yet, especially if the general is in-experienced or doesn't understand how to hide the lists weaknesses.

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Offline moc065

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #6 on: April 3, 2008, 09:38:56 PM »
Note to Mods, I double posted to keep the rating seperate from the specific question as the owner "Ninja"d me while I was doing hte rating. Sorry.

Thanks Gutstikk...  really appreciate the feed back.  I knew I probably still had a ways to go... but this list is so much better polished than the last one (again thanks to help from this board) that I wanted see how it faired as I've really lavished some time on the list.

Once again... you've given me lots to think about.  The Farseer probably is over equiped... and swapping out the Spinneret and Defend for a DDS and Bladestorm might be a better way to go.

If I could pose a question though; I know this list is a lot weaker in the Assault phase than I'd like it to be, but I've been having trouble juggling the points around.  I'm trying (desperately) to keep my troops choices above the minimum... my model count up (as Eldar can die pretty quick)... and my number of scoring units from dropping any further... while still maintaing a high degree of mobility.  Would you be willing to make a suggestion on how I might consider resolving my close combat deficency?  I'd certainly be willing to entertain it.

120pts. Farseer: Guide, Doom, Spirit Stones
Drop Guide and the S-stone and then add Runes of Warding for soem Psycher Control, and possibly a Jetbike to add resilience, mobility, and battlefield availablity.

182pts. 9 x Howling Banshees + Exarch (Executioner)
135pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Bright Lance
I actually like this but would add S-stones and maybe V-engines.

113pts. 5 x Fire Dragons + Exarch (Dragon’s Breath, Crack Shot)
Solid, you can get away with 4+Exarch in extreme point crunch cases though.

105pts. 10 x Guardians + Star Cannon
Doesn't fit your mech them and doesn't actually add much as they can easily get dropped without Conceal or good Cover, thus your forced to leave them in cover and only gain from the Starcannon which could easily be replaced by a cheaper weapon, (scatter for shots, or EML for range).

162pts. 9 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield,
             Bladestorm)
100pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon
I like this too; but would add Stones.

162pts. 9 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Defend)
100pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon
Solid, but againg I would add Stones.

158pts. 5 x Swooping Hawks + Exarch (Sunrifle, Intercept)
Not sure of your math here, anywya... Skyleap is very good as it adds a lot of diversity and possibly resilience.

196pts. 6 x Warp Spider + Exarch (Spinneret Rifle, Powerblades, Withdraw)
I prefer the DDS, and only run 6 total as I find larger squad tough to hide while getting into location.

175 pts. 5 x Dark Reapers
You can easily drop 1 of these for points; but if you decide to dump the Guardians then keep these but make one an EML Exarch

140pts. Falcon; Star Cannon
HF and Stones, and a scatterlaser instead of star.

I hope that helps

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Offline Shinrathir

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #7 on: April 3, 2008, 09:45:11 PM »
Thanks moc65... I definately appreciate the commentary... but I can't help but feel a little depressed that in trying to fix the weaknesses inherant in my first list... that I actually ended up making it worse. Sigh :(  I guess I really don't understand the dynamics of the game or unit synergy well enough to create the kind of list I really want to play.  So I suppose it's back to the drawing board for me on this one.  Thanks for the help though... I really do appreciate it... and I'll try my best to learn from your suggestions and experience when continuing to modify this list.
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Offline moc065

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #8 on: April 4, 2008, 08:20:44 AM »
Don't feel bad, I am not the all knowing Guru of Eldar (heck I don't even consider myself that good - in comparison with guys like Lazarus - General Extraordinar)... Your playstyle, skill, opponents, terrain, etc may all alter the way the list actually works on the table... And because you took the time to seek advice you now know some of hte weakness you need to defend or plan for. Thus the list will work better than if you had not discussed it.

I see some good things going on, I just feel that the list is still a little loose for my playing style, and the crazy power-gamers I seam to run into on a regular bases.

Feel free to post your idea on change and we canhelp you to work out tactics, combo's, etc to get this thing fine tuned for you - and not just what any of use would use.

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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #9 on: April 4, 2008, 08:46:19 AM »
Dude, you should see soem of my lists. I'll be posting one for rating soon, to let these guys pick me apart. I built my own Craftworld fluff and restrict my army lists to suit my theme though, so there's just certain combinations which would make a lot of sense that I unfortunately can't use.

As Moc suggested, you're looking for a mech theme, with quick response to enemy actions, yet you have a seer on foot, a squad of guardians on foot, a squad of reapers on foot. If you just simply drop the Guardians and the Reapers from your list, and add some vehicle upgrades, as well as possibly losing guide and spirit stones, and adding the jetbike to the farseer, you'd still have points left over for something like a unit of shining spears. Also, you do already have powerblades and powerswords on your Spider and DA exarchs, so if they all hit at the same time using lance formation [arrange the squad in a triangle with the first model 5 inches from the unit he will charge], and run them all into combat so that all the points of the triangles contact the enemy but none of the rest of the squad members can reach, and assuming you've doomed the enemy - that's a lot of power weapon wounds for a squad to face. What you really don't have is something to handle bigger squads in combat; shining spears might be a possibility.

Let's check out some points;
Drop Guardians and Reapers, Spirit Stones and Guide: +320pts
Add VE to all skimmers: -80 = 240 [this lets your squad survive until contact]
Add small squad of shining spears: -157 [2 + Exarch with Star Lance, Withdraw]
83 points remain. You could go two routes here:
Add Fortune, add back spirit stones, add runes of Witnessing: 65 pts.

This leaves you with 18pts. Now the Farseer can ride with the Spears, they can be fortuned for a rerollable 3+ invul while they turboboost and the Farseer can doom targets before they turbo even if he can't see them. They will last quite long in combat, and between the Exarch and the Farseer's weapons can even do some owning of tanks.

If you are willing to exchange that starcannon for a shuriken cannon, your 18 remaining points goes up to 38pts. From here I would lose the VE on the Falcon [+20pts, or 58pts] and instead buy it Stones and Holofields [-45pts, leaving you with 13pts left over]. I don't know what you'd want to spend those on; Spirit Stones for the Banshee's skimmer and a Singing Spear for the Farseer, war shout for the Banshee exarch... that's up to you.

Here's how things have been altered:
Whatever one of your skimmers is good at killing, firing all of them at the same target will be much better at killing. This will primarily be hordes.

As your falcon is more durable now, if your other squads suffer a few casualties [which is likely to happen eventually] and their skimmer has crashed [also likely to happen] the Falcon should still be around to pick them up and move them to a new target as needed.

The Farseer and Spears form a battlegroup, the Banshees and Dragons work together, the Avenger teams work together with the Spiders, and the skimmers all work together. You can doom either the banshees' target or the avengers' target as needed [Avengers if there are lower numbers but better army saves, banshees if there are higher numbers of lower saves]. The Seer's battlegroup acts as an extra hammer to either the Avengers or the Banshees, but have them move in as a second attack wave so they don't get killed as even when fortuned, the small squad size makes them fragile. The Spears and Spiders can also pull out of combat if needed, and the seer can always split off to tank hunt by himself and still leave the Spears fortuned.

Keep your guardians and reapers if you already have them; between them and the Avengers you have a good start to a non-mech list to mix things up a bit.

Offline Shinrathir

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #10 on: April 4, 2008, 09:13:56 AM »
Thanks again moc065... your offer of additional help in fine tuning the list and constructing a "play book" for it really did cheer me up.  Admitedly... I've spent more time playing with this list than I probably should've since my last post... but here's a tweaked list... and an aspect heavy alternate that's not quite as fast... but packs a fair bit more punch in the Assault Phase.

Modified List:

95pts. Farseer: Doom, Runes of Warding

182pts. 9 x Howling Banshees + Exarch (Executioner)
145pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

113pts. 5 x Fire Dragons + Exarch (Dragon’s Breath, Crack Shot)
175pts. Falcon; Scatter Laser, Holo-fields, Spirit stones

95pts. 10 x Guardians + Scatter Laser

150pts. 8 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Bladestorm)
110pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

150pts. 8 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Bladestorm)
110pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

173pts. 5 x Swooping Hawks + Exarch (Sunrifle, Skyleap, Intercept)

174pts. 5 x Warp Spider + Exarch (Death Spinner, Powerblades, Withdraw)

175 pts. 5 x Dark Reapers


Total: 1847 pts.
 
...and the alternate list:

98pts. Farseer: Doom, Singing Spear, Runes of Warding

182pts. 9 x Howling Banshees + Exarch (Executioner)
145pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

196pts. 8 x Striking Scorpions + Exarch (Scorpion’s Claw, Stalker, Shadowstrike)

113pts. 5 x Fire Dragons + Exarch (Dragon’s Breath, Crack Shot)
175pts. Falcon; Scatter Laser, Holo-fields, spirit stones

95pts. 10 x Guardians + Scatter Laser

162pts. 9 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Bladestorm)

162pts. 9 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Bladestorm)

173pts. 5 x Swooping Hawks + Exarch (Sunrifle, Skyleap, Intercept)

174pts. 5 x Warp Spider + Exarch (Death Spinner, Powerblades, Withdraw)

175 pts. 5 x Dark Reapers

Total Points: 1850
Model Count: 73 + 2 Vehicles
Scoring Units: 10

HQ: 5%
Elites: 34%
Troops: 23%
Fast Attack: 19%
Heavy: 19%

Now... I know this alternate list is getting away from the mechanized feel of the previous list... but it should still be reasonably mobile and passingly quick.  The combo's are still there for the most part... but I've got a lot more bite in the Assault Phase with all those Scorpion's slinking around in the back field disrupting the enemy and the fact that it also happens to give me another scoring unit is a welcome bonus.  Interestingly... when I was finished with the alternate... I discovered that I've actually got almost all the models I'd need for it already... whereas the other list would be a little more pricey for me to construct.

Anway... these are all the thoughts I've had on this list at this point.  If either of these help clear up some of the difficulties with the original... please let me know... and any tactics/combo suggestions for my "playbook" would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks again.

Ah... and it seems I need to thank you as well Gutstikk.  Your post was really rather helpful... and I'm fairly certainl I'll adopt some of your suggestions at a later point.  Problem is... I've absolutely no conversion experience and am all thumbs at that sort of work so I'm a little hesitant about the Farseer even though you make a VERY persuasive case for him.

Also, I don't actually own any shining spears... but I do own a fair few Guardians and a squad of Reapers which... miraculously... are already painted and ready to go.  And I know I haven't made a big deal of it... but with this list... I'm already looking at the purchase of a Serpent and a squad of Avengers and that's starting to get a little expensive for my blood... especially when I have a veritable horde of unpainted models.

So what I guess I'm saying is... thank you very much for your help... and I'm definately going to keep it in mind as acquire more models in the future becaue this is exactly the sort of list I'm building for (and if didn't have'em already I really would drop the Guardians and Reapers)... but I don't think I can afford to right at the moment.  Check out the less mechanized list (of which I do have almost all the models) and see what you think.
« Last Edit: April 4, 2008, 09:21:51 AM by Shinrathir »
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Offline moc065

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #11 on: April 7, 2008, 07:22:20 AM »
Quote
98pts. Farseer: Doom, Singing Spear, Runes of Warding

182pts. 9 x Howling Banshees + Exarch (Executioner)
145pts. Wave Serpent; Twin Linked Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

196pts. 8 x Striking Scorpions + Exarch (Scorpion’s Claw, Stalker, Shadowstrike)

113pts. 5 x Fire Dragons + Exarch (Dragon’s Breath, Crack Shot)
175pts. Falcon; Scatter Laser, Holo-fields, spirit stones

95pts. 10 x Guardians + Scatter Laser

162pts. 9 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Bladestorm)

162pts. 9 x Dire Avengers + Exarch (Power Weapon, Shimmer Shield, Bladestorm)

173pts. 5 x Swooping Hawks + Exarch (Sunrifle, Skyleap, Intercept)

174pts. 5 x Warp Spider + Exarch (Death Spinner, Powerblades, Withdraw)

175 pts. 5 x Dark Reapers

Total Points: 1850
Model Count: 73 + 2 Vehicles
Scoring Units: 10

HQ: 5%
Elites: 34%
Troops: 23%
Fast Attack: 19%
Heavy: 19%

I actually see this is a perfectly palyable list, although it is short on anti-tank, I think that it could be set-up and so-ordinated well enough to deal with most things. The other alternate list (which could get a Singing Spear on the Farseer - as you have the points to spare) is about the same (a little more anti-tank- but not much) but it doesn carry one less unit, and its not quite as resilient. Some simple things you can do to tweek the list I quoted are as follows.

1.. Trim out 1 Dark Reaper to create points.
2.. Swap the Guardian Platform to an EML and use them as defenders primarily on tanks and then switch to infantry as needed.
3.. Add Vectored Engines and a Shuri-cannon upgrade to the Falcon.

Now you would loose 2 shots from your DR's and they would certainly need to use cover even better than before. But you would get one more option on enemy tanks with the Guardians, and the Falcon would be more able to try for side/rear armour as well as being a little safer for the Fire Dragons. Now there are others ways to get more Anti-tank such as:
-- An EML Exarch for the DR; but this really changes the unit and many people don't understand how to work it afterwards (since when you shooting a tank, you wasting a lot of good ap=3 shooting).
-- Or simply trim out one FD to get the points for the Guardian EML and the Shuri-cannon upgrade on the Falcon.

I also have to say that your Farseer will be tricky to use, as if he goes with the Banshees then he is "Vehicle prohibited", and if he is on foot then he can be in a risky position. I truely advocate for a JB for him, but I understand you modeling ability/fear (have you considered buying a figure form someone or swapping to get a Farseer on JB ? -- If your interested PM me, maybe we can work something out.) 

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Offline Shinrathir

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Re: 1850 pts. Balanced list for review
« Reply #12 on: April 9, 2008, 07:31:03 AM »
Sorry for the delay...  I just wanted to thank-you very much for your generous offer moc065.  It's not something I'm interested in at this time... but I was really touched by your offer.  Thank-you so much, and I will definately keep that option in mind for the future.
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