Topic: Zoo + The Hijab + Veil

[Vespasian Swiper]

The other day I was reading Zoo (on a train journey and became bored of books on the Western Way of War) and the most amusing article in there was the 'Shia*sp law edition' which was an amusing satire of the magasine. With an image of the cover - boasting 'mass stonings, beheadings' and so on.

It showed an image of a woman in a hijab with the subtitle 'a woman as you've never seen her before!'

And showed on previous pages a number of captions ranging from inane comments to 'look she's about to wink!'

I cannot yet find a link to the 'cover' but was wondering what people here thought about this.

[Guildmage Aech]

What people think about the Hijab, or what they think about wearers being lightly mocked?

[Midnight Walker]

Sad as it may seem, I think that if any moderately high-ranking muslim gets his hands on it, there will be outrage, protests, and probably the threat of death to the editor of Zoo. I think it's pretty funny, but I doubt muslims will. It's a sorry state of affairs when you have to worry about satire because of needlessly extreme reactions.

[The Reborn]

What we are seeing in the UK at present is a complete pendulum shift from one side of things (immigrants have no rights and earn lower wages etc, etc), to the other (more or less more rights than indigenous population, and enough numbers to push for even more).

Personally, i'm fed-up with the attitude of Muslims in particular toward free speach.  In many Muslim countries, there are things you cannot talk about, especially in public.  In the UK, we have no such shackles....but the ever-increasing Muslim population is attempting to put them in place.  It is clear to me that many of the higher-ranking members of Muslim society have no sense of humour whatever and over-react to the slightest thing, which they contest is provocation.

I think Jack Straw was 100% correct concerning his comments on the veil, and to assume that a woman virtually coccooned in black makes a good teacher to young children is prepostorous.  Facial contact is necessary....kids need and require that certain closeness, intimacy with their teachers...how is this possible when the teacher in question is covered-up?

The other interesting thing for me is that the teacher in the recent case did not wear the costume and veil when she attended the job interview....which is not very open, is it?
Since there is no laid-down reason for wearing the veil, it is not a requirement of the religion for instance, it is merely pandering to the whims of Muslim men.

-Reborn.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

Hang on by that role you will discriminate agains sikhs. Why a beard makes it difficult to read a man's lips.

Its utter nonsense. The kids don't need intimacy and closeness. Kids in the UK need a shock. They are in one of the easiest school systems in the world. They are treated like princes and cuddled to an amazing degree. Yet they still manage to whine so much. The teacher whether she be in a bikini or in a burkha are both still teachers. The outfits don't make the teacher. Try and inculcate that in kids is a far greater lesson. Rememember my "guess the muslim" thread? You are simply jumping to conclusions. Its better for your kids to face some sort of diversity rather than just be given the same bland dose of teachers.

[DUDEMAESTRO]

Hang on by that role you will discriminate agains sikhs. Why a beard makes it difficult to read a man's lips.

Its utter nonsense. The kids don't need intimacy and closeness. Kids in the UK need a shock. They are in one of the easiest school systems in the world. They are treated like princes and cuddled to an amazing degree. Yet they still manage to whine so much. The teacher whether she be in a bikini or in a burkha are both still teachers. The outfits don't make the teacher. Try and inculcate that in kids is a far greater lesson. Rememember my "guess the muslim" thread? You are simply jumping to conclusions. Its better for your kids to face some sort of diversity rather than just be given the same bland dose of teachers.

Hold on... "Guess the Muslim thread"?

My Trig Teacher was from Pakistan. Smart, smart man. The messed up thing was walking down the hall hearing...
"Man I can not understand that Arab at all."
Or
“How an I supposed to get what is going on if I cannot even fathom what that Arabian guy is saying.”

Now I am pretty thick skulled and never once did I miss interpret this man. Yeah he had an accent, it was thick, but you know what he said.  Also I got a lot of looks when I said “He is not Arab, he is from Pakistan.” My guess is... a lot of kids were not passing his class, not because of his English, because they never did the assignments.....

[Ashman]

Hang on by that role you will discriminate agains sikhs. Why a beard makes it difficult to read a man's lips.

Its utter nonsense. The kids don't need intimacy and closeness. Kids in the UK need a shock. They are in one of the easiest school systems in the world. They are treated like princes and cuddled to an amazing degree. Yet they still manage to whine so much. The teacher whether she be in a bikini or in a burkha are both still teachers. The outfits don't make the teacher. Try and inculcate that in kids is a far greater lesson. Rememember my "guess the muslim" thread? You are simply jumping to conclusions. Its better for your kids to face some sort of diversity rather than just be given the same bland dose of teachers.

Oh dear here we go again. Prepare for your arguments to be ignored gentlemen.

I'm pretty sure the kids in UK schools (obviously talking about young kids here) do not whine about what their teacher wears. And even if they do, they have a right to. How are they going to learn if they are intimidated by their teacher? How are they going to get to know their teachers as well as they know everyone else around them if their teacher covers their face up?
Can you provide evidence that children get treated like princes and get cuddled in lessons? No, didn't think so. Just you over exaggerating again eh?
Oh and this is my favourite part: 'The teacher whether she be in a bikini or in a burkha are both still teachers. The outfits don't make the teacher.'
So even if that outfit limits the abilities to teach, they should still be allowed to wear one? In particular for young children, face to face learning is vital. It is how people in this country are brought up. Students of all ages need to trust their tutors. How can they do this when they cannot see their teachers face?

Lips have hardly anything to do with facial expression. Don't be ridiculous.

CM

[Salami]

For teaching to work, teachers need to be as non-intimidating and/or inspiring as possible. Which is kind of hard to do when all you see is..well....nothing .

Also, beards don't obscure the lips, if groomed a little bit. And even then, it's still highly visible, so that does not apply.

Also also, I had an Arab teacher, and he was no different than any other. He was still a Muslim, but displayed no (obvious) outward signs of it, and very rarely brought it up.

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

I'm frankly mystified by this argument. Muslim women in the UK have a chance to finally get out from a system of institutionalised sexism that is practically unrivalled, and what's their response? "beslubber you, I like having my identity subsumed. I think it's pretty cool that I belong to a religion that prevents me from wearing practical clothing, or clothing that is not purpose-built to scream to the world 'I AM NOT IMPORTANT'"

Mental. Utterly beslubbering mental.

Gift horse, mouth, Muslim women in Britain peering in right now...

[Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)]

I don't see why wearing a veil is intimidating to students, and if it is the students should learn something from it, we should not be afraid of their ignorance of it.  To have a teacher who practices a starkly different culture from the students is very educational (unless she or he is an ass).  Students from an ethnically homogenous community- an all Polynesian class, for instance- may be afraid of a white teacher.  Would it be acceptable to prohibit that person from teaching?  What if the teacher wore Afro-centric clothing, such as cross-colors and a headwrap? 

That people still wear the veil is offensive to some, that some people don't understand why this could be is a bit offensive to me.  Any practice, so long as it is sustainable, is not insane so long as it is done willingly and does not cause stress or is maladaptive.  The veil is no different.  If a woman chooses to wear it because she wants to, then I support that as fully as a woman who wants to wear a string halter top and short-shorts. 

Four inch highheels and a miniskirt is in some ways just as impractical as the veil- both woman will have considerable difficulty escaping a burning building quickly.  The same arguments for societal and sexual exploitation can be made for the girl in the hootcie outfit as the one in the veil, but women are just as free to do what they want as they are free to not have others dictate that for them. 
For both women, it is a matter of personal liberty and personal belief: one wishes to cover her body, the other wishes to display it.

[Midnight Walker]

I think the point has been missed by some. She was willing to remove her veil when teaching her class of children. That's fine, not a problem. But she would replace it, or refuse to remove it, if a man was in the room. Now surely that is sending out the wrong message?

That said, I agree that young kids need to see expressions to learn. Programmes like Supernanny or that thing where they bung all the little bastards in a house to make them nice again (yeah ok, I watch crap TV, beslubber you all ) all encourage parents to display very obvious facial expressions and voices so that the child knows exactly what's going on in a given situation.

[Killing Time]

If you were 8 would you want to be taught by this man?

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.snogear.com/images/miscellaneous/balaclava.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.snogear.com/balaclava.htm&h=390&w=317&sz=68&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=vYcs_GGA63YYjM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbalaclava%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

I honestly fail to see the difference.

I'm sick of pandering to people because of some beslubbered up notion of what this mad bearded wizard in the sky will do to them when they die.
Get a grip!

Dizzy

[Vespasian Swiper]

I'm frankly mystified by this argument. Muslim women in the UK have a chance to finally get out from a system of institutionalised sexism that is practically unrivalled, and what's their response? "beslubber you, I like having my identity subsumed. I think it's pretty cool that I belong to a religion that prevents me from wearing practical clothing, or clothing that is not purpose-built to scream to the world 'I AM NOT IMPORTANT'"

Mental. Utterly beslubbering mental.

Gift horse, mouth, Muslim women in Britain peering in right now...

Totally agree with you then - its insane. If you saw - as a 10 year old - being taught by a woman in a full hijab - you'd be a bit phased by what to think.

And in theory she should not drive to work - or be in a car with anyone other than her husband. Sooo take it all or shove it all.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

Er... Supernanny is quite possibly the most idiotic show since Celebrity Love Island... It teaches you a tactic that stops working in 2 years since by the time the kid figures out that its "just a chair/beanbag/step". Quoting her is like quoting celebrity love island. She goes to inept parents and tells them what they should have done to their kid a long long time ago that hundreds of others would have recommended. If I get paid for stating the obvious I would be just as smug too...

You would'nt be phased in the least bit if you saw her teach people. I don't see anything wrong with it and its high time you figured out that its what the teacher says not what she looks like that is important...

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

Should have put this in my last post...

I have no problem with Muslim (or even non-Muslim) women wearing a full Hijab or any possible alternative configuration of clothing if they want to. I simply think it's madness that they want to. But it's not my choice, and I fully support their right to wear what they want when it's practical. While I have no doubt they would continue to wear a full veil in any situation, sometimes there are valid reasons why they would need not to. Passports for example. They'd have to remove it from the face to take the photo, and when checking in at airports remove their veil again so they check-in officer makes sure they are who they say they are. Would they have a problem with that? I don't know.

FMG: it's not simply that what the teacher says is important. At primary school certainly, kids react to pretty much everything about the teacher, their appearance included. What they say is important, but so too is what they look like. That you don't see anything wrong with it is not a sign that everybody else should alter their views for you

[Ashman]

@FMG
But again, when the veil restricts the teaching ability of the teacher, and the children's education suffers as a result would you still say that she should be allowed to wear the veil. I would say that it's pretty obvious that the children's learning is going to suffer if there is no facial contact. I don't know about you, but I would have felt very differently towards my teacher when I was younger if I never saw their face. The only other option is to get the child's family, friends and everyone else they see to wear veils so that they no longer see their teacher as the 'odd one out' in the people they know. Which is quite obviously preposterous. You can whittle on for ages about how the parents should teach the child that the teacher is no different to them even though she covers her face, but to a child it is simple. Teacher dresses and behaves differently to everyone else they know. Children need stability and similarity in their lives.

CM

[Killing Time]

I expect more from you FMG.

Humans evolved to incorporate facial expressions into their communication patterns. Otherwise what's the point of knowing what a smile means, or a frown, or baring your teeth?
The face is vitally important in communicating effectively.
It's the reason internet forums use smileys....so you can actually try to imply the emotion with which you're saying something.
For sure, tone of voice is also an important factor....but why deliberately limit yourself?

To say otherwise is pure cussedness.

Dizzy

[Full Metal Geneticist]

It is important but in our day and age not the only skill to learn. Take verbal cues for example. How do you tell what someone is like on the other end of a phone? You can take verbal cues.

You are a bad boy can mean so many different things but you learn what it means by the intonation of your voice. Visual cues are important but so are verbal ones. Think of this as an opportunity to develop verbal ones.

They are'nt limiting themselves out of choice you know. Its a religious accoutrement and so its use is less debatable than a ski mask. You can learn valuable lessons if you just ignore the fact you can't see her face.

By your logic thousands of australians would'nt be able to learn as effectively due to the old style radio schools that used to exist. They never met their teachers. Likewise no sikh should be able to teach since their beards to hide a lot of their face.

Can you see why its so daft. Its voice that is important. THe internet has no intonation so you can't write "light heartedly".

[Killing Time]

It is important but in our day and age not the only skill to learn. Take verbal cues for example. How do you tell what someone is like on the other end of a phone? You can take verbal cues.

A lot of people don't like talking on the phone for this very reason.

You are a bad boy can mean so many different things but you learn what it means by the intonation of your voice. Visual cues are important but so are verbal ones. Think of this as an opportunity to develop verbal ones.

I agree that intonation is important, but why limit yourself?
Surely it's easier to develop an understanding of verbal nuence if it's reenforced with facial stimuli.

They are'nt limiting themselves out of choice you know. Its a religious accoutrement and so its use is less debatable than a ski mask. You can learn valuable lessons if you just ignore the fact you can't see her face.

As I said before, I'm sick of pandering to people because of their baseless superstitions.
If I said I had to wear a ski-mask to school because the flying spaghetti monster told me to do it in order to get my place on the beer volcano I'd be swiftly told to get my coat.
This is a secular society....I honestly think people had better start getting used to it.

By your logic thousands of australians would'nt be able to learn as effectively due to the old style radio schools that used to exist. They never met their teachers.

Have you met Goyder?

Likewise no sikh should be able to teach since their beards to hide a lot of their face.

Beards are an awfully lot less restrictive than a naqib or burka. It's perfectly possible to see a smile or a frown through a beard.
It's simply not the same.

Can you see why its so daft. Its voice that is important. THe internet has no intonation so you can't write "light heartedly".

Voice is important....but so are facial expressions.

Dizzy

[Ashman]

You are a bad boy can mean so many different things but you learn what it means by the intonation of your voice. Visual cues are important but so are verbal ones. Think of this as an opportunity to develop verbal ones.

I agree that intonation is important, but why limit yourself?
Surely it's easier to develop an understanding of verbal nuence if it's reenforced with facial stimuli.

Precisely. Which is why issues arise in situations where ease of understanding is paramount. Such as schools.

CM