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Offline Killersquid

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2018, 08:51:11 PM »
Well, the New FAQ doesn't really effect me at all, but it will make the armies I go against look more exciting. Sort of done with the multi-hive tyrant list.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2018, 08:53:15 PM »
I've been considering the character rules, and they are in no way better than the current rules actually, as you can still hide a screening unit behind a wall, and become untargettable.
You simply can't use a character for screening.
As a backlash, characters can't take cover behind other characters even in the open.

Regarding the CP bonuses, battalions just became the standard CAD. I mean a brigade used to net you 3x the amount of CP as a battalion, now it's only 2.4x.

I agree that double-battalion is now quite a bit stronger compared to brigade. In my usual double-battalion army I'd been considering turning it into a brigade, but now I don't think it would really be worth it at all.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2018, 09:20:09 PM »
Also, the increased CP for a battalion helps the more elite armies where these points are soaked up by your HQs and troops. It's also really nice for 1500pt or less games. Gives you some breathing room to actually use/get more stratagems without cramming in min unit extra detachments.

Cheap armies can easily get multiple battalions, or batts + multiple 1CP's. given the power of strats, it doesn't work out in elite armys favour at all.

Sure cheap armies get even more. However armies that aren't cheap get those crucial extra few CP. Most of my games have been more or less over by turn three. Usually I have enough CP (usually 6 or 7) for that one turn where I use a few special stratagem-unit combos. Then I don't have any left. Cheaper armies always out CP'ed me anyway.

Offline magenb

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2018, 11:00:58 PM »
Sure cheap armies get even more. However armies that aren't cheap get those crucial extra few CP. Most of my games have been more or less over by turn three. Usually I have enough CP (usually 6 or 7) for that one turn where I use a few special stratagem-unit combos. Then I don't have any left. Cheaper armies always out CP'ed me anyway.

I tend to play at the lower end point wise, so generally its a 1 to 2 CP difference across the army's (CWE/DE/Necron/Nids/BA/CM/DG/ORKS/IG). This will push it to 4 CP difference for cheaper armies, which is huge. I would rather see super elite armies getting bonus CP.

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2018, 11:10:39 PM »
Psykers struggle as it is, and it's not a lack of smite spam that was the problem, rather the opposite. I guess they just listened to what was complained about rather than what was OP. Giving the SMURF's a nod with the smite spam and not the already terrible and now also nerfed warlock conclave was just plain idiotic.
You mean the nod they gave to Grey Knights, the one army that is considered to have the most useless codex to the point that you rarely see them being played any more?  The army that had a toned down version of Smite that was made all but useless by the beta rules?  Yeah, it's such a shame that GW made an exception for an army like that...  ::)

I've been considering the character rules, and they are in no way better than the current rules actually, as you can still hide a screening unit behind a wall, and become untargettable.
You simply can't use a character for screening.
As a backlash, characters can't take cover behind other characters even in the open.
Actually, the current rules require that the screening unit be visible.  They took away the visible requirement because people were using vehicles to snipe characters.  Then they took away the screening ability from other characters to prevent the lists of 6+ Cullexus Assassins from screening an army of characters.

CWE changes feels like a knee jerk reaction to what people were having a whine at, but didn't really play test all the changes out with the new rule adjustments.

Not being able to spam reapers, especially given Battle brothers effect on Ynnari, puts a lot of hurt on the tourney lists, which were often backed up with Seer support, that before accounting for the point increases.
Reapers were ridiculously good with their previous point cost, which is why they were spammed.  If you had just left the 0-3 restriction, you would see that cap filled for Reapers every time.  That would bring you back to 7th edition lists where Eldar lists started with a Riptide Wing, and then went from there.  Now, considerations may be made to other units.

To be frank, it feels more like GW are trying to stop people in tourney's from being nobs, but it comes are a really big hit to those who just play for fun and show some shelf control. If I don't want to be trashed by a new codex now, I'm going to have to put more filth in the lists.
That's just it, these rule changes are in Matched Play.  Matched Play is the rules set designed for the tournament players.  If you want to play fun, fluffy games, then that is why they have Open or Narrative.  But complaining that GW is changing things because they are being abused by competitive players in the rules set designed for competitive players just doesn't make sense.

High point cost low model count armies suck in 8th.
My Custodes would disagree with you ;)

I never had an issue with command points for taking a battalion. Is this more of a slap to stop people abusing the other 1 CP detachments? This also puts a massive benefit to low cost armies. I don't get this change either considering the other 1 CP detachments were a way of spamming units, which with the new anti-soup rules makes it very hard to do.
As was mentioned, this is more to benefit the elite armies that can't really afford to run multiple detachments.  In 2000pts, my Custodes have exactly 6CP.  After I use one to deep strike a unit, and another to pay for a second relic, I am down to 4 for the entire game.  At that point, Victor of the Blood Games is not worth the cost, and I have to really consider if I want to spend 1CP for something like redrawing a Tactical Objective.

Seems like we are being pushed back to CAD style gaming, not a bad thing in itself, but moves away from the rhetoric of being able to play the game they way you want...
We never left the CAD style of games.  You have a set number of detachments that are all very similar to the CAD of old.
Smite is a real problem and the nerf doesn't go far enough.

It's a solid change.  Not going to severely hamper 2 or 3 psykers, but 6 or 7 will feel the pinch.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2018, 12:56:09 AM »
Target characters, is now "Wounds characteristic" rather than simply less than 10 wounds. So Large characters can still be targeted once they fall bellow 10.

Repears are good, but were too expensive at the time of the index when everything cost a lot more, are now spammed, so their idea is to take them back to index pricing when just about everything is cheaper its not the way to fix the problem or balance the game. Unit caps have already been tried and tested for other things that have been spammed, there is no need to change the points so badly, especially when the biggest issue was not even CWE.

40k is played with match play rules outside of tourney's for a bunch of reasons and to a large extent this is where you find a lot of ways to balance the game as gentleman's agreements are formed, like OK 1k points, so no more than 10 DR's, no more than 2 smite attempts per turn on an arm that can't deny it, no turn 1 DS, etc ,etc.

Changing point cost has unintended side effects like, sure spaming reapers and seers was super good, but since you have focused on that by using points, you have broken other things like seer+banshee's, which wasn't great, but you get the idea. It also breaks balanced lists


Offline Fenris

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2018, 06:43:53 AM »
@GML:
Quote
You mean the nod they gave to Grey Knights, the one army that is considered to have the most useless codex to the point that you rarely see them being played any more?  The army that had a toned down version of Smite that was made all but useless by the beta rules?  Yeah, it's such a shame that GW made an exception for an army like that...  ::)
Grey knights & Thousand sons = 2 flavors of smurf's, sure I'm not against it, they still forgot the warlock conclave (and probably more things), which also have a toned down version o smite.
They even increased the point cost for warlock conclaves with 50%. A unit which already was the worst one in the entire codex.

@everyone:
Reapers should have become 3-7 in unit size would have fixed the problem, now they will either be on the shelf or in Ynnari lists only. While also nerfing the WotP spell (WC +2) GW is again overcompensating by far.

Regarding the detachments, I think upping the bonus for being battleforged would have been more helpful, to say +5CP.

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Offline Partninja

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2018, 11:54:12 AM »
After reconfiguring my lists that used Dark Reapers I think those lists will be ok. I'll need to play test though as I have essentially had to drop a unit (swooping Hawks to be  specific for those lists) to account for their price increase, as well as the now more expensive HQs.

I can't argue against the reaper increase as they should have been at least a bit more. Maybe they went too far. We'll have to see. I don't use them in every list anyway

I think the Warlocks went way too far in points. They should have stayed the same. Spiritseer is ok, maybe about 10pts cheaper than it's new cost would have been fine.

Luckily I tend to use Skyrunner Farseer and Warlock anyway and their points weren't changed.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 11:57:10 AM by Partninja »

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2018, 02:56:07 PM »
It's really hard to justify taking a Warlock given how few wounds it has, at the new higher price. I may take a Warlock Skyrunner instead, or a Spiritseer.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2018, 05:16:51 PM »
I would not be surprised to find they were being taken to get access to 3 more squads of reapers. That said, I don't like the trend of just point costing an option out of the game, if you want to control warlocks, there have been a bunch of systems used historically, such as unit upgrades or only being able to take them after purchasing a Farseer, and making them not count towards the HQ slot itself.


Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2018, 05:26:59 PM »
I would not be surprised to find they were being taken to get access to 3 more squads of reapers. That said, I don't like the trend of just point costing an option out of the game, if you want to control warlocks, there have been a bunch of systems used historically, such as unit upgrades or only being able to take them after purchasing a Farseer, and making them not count towards the HQ slot itself.

If the concern is people taking a Warlock to take a Spearhead with 3-6 more squads of reapers, the Rule of Three prevents that, and if the concern is that reapers are underpriced, that has been addressed.

It's possible that GW has thought about it and just decided there shouldn't be HQs that cost fewer than 50 pts, which is pretty reasonable. As said, though, Warlocks aren't really a typical HQ unit despite being a spellcaster. The last time I played this game regularly before 8e, lone Warlocks are not available as HQs. In fact, you couldn't take lone Warlocks at all!

Basically, GW made two mistakes
1) making stand-alone Warlock an HQ unit when the Warlock statline is so weak and price is so cheap
2) "fixing" it by pricing Warlock at a reasonable price for an HQ unit, without actually fixing Warlock.

Warlock and Warlock Skyrunner should probably be Elites choices, with Warlock Conclave remaining as an HQ choice. That being said, I'm not really sure if there's an easy solution here for GW.

I guess it's time I finally painted that Spiritseer, heh.
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Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2018, 05:41:19 PM »
At their previous points, I really tried to make them work and was pretty disappointed every time. Sure they may do something for a turn or two, but stupidly easy to kill and give up free Vp... Now I think they will get shelved... good thing I hadn't gotten round to painting mine yet

Rest of the FAQ beyond the Eldar costs I think was pretty much spot on. DR needed to go up slightly. 240% though is a bit excessive IMHO.
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Offline Myen'Tal

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2018, 05:45:39 PM »
Hey guys, can someone point in the direction of the 3 detachment limit rule? I downloaded the FAQ, but must be blind because I cannot find it  :P. Wanted to know what this new rule means for Drukhari.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2018, 06:02:32 PM »
Hey guys, can someone point in the direction of the 3 detachment limit rule? I downloaded the FAQ, but must be blind because I cannot find it  :P. Wanted to know what this new rule means for Drukhari.

The Rule of Three is not a rule, just a recommendation for tournaments. It's in the big FAQ here under Organized Events: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_The_Big_FAQ_1_2018_en.pdf
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Offline Myen'Tal

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2018, 06:15:00 PM »
Gotcha', thank you!!! ^^
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Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2018, 09:17:54 PM »
Also note, it excludes troops and transports from the rule of three. So still feel free to run your three detachments of cult, coven, and Kabal.

I think DE, while more mono-build now, are still very, very effective.
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Offline Myen'Tal

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2018, 09:31:51 PM »
Good to hear, guys, thanks for the info :).
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2018, 09:35:14 PM »
And it's only a recommendation luckily. That'll be an awkward line to walk if an event actually wanted to try an promote more fluffy lists. Saim-Hann can only take three units of windriders? Not like tourneys promote that kind of thing though.

Offline Killersquid

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2018, 04:37:59 AM »
Three units are plenty. Just take larger squads. There are other units you can take to make a themed list, like Vipers and shinning spears and such.

Speaking of spamming stuff, a buddy of mine, trying to chase the meta, is now selling 5 hive tyrants, and is sitting on $1000 of biovores, he was planning to run an army of (27 in total). I'm glad that sort of nonsense is out of the game.

I don't see any reason why you'd need to run more than three of any non-troop or transport unit anyway, this will definitely help stop the abuse of unit spam. Going to feel like running the CAD of old, I'm happy about that.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Faq 2018
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2018, 06:29:58 AM »
@Partninja- I feel you on that one Ninja. You really dont want to run huge units of them, because they become such a huge target and are impossible to hide out of LOS and plus the morale rules really sting for large expensive units with low LD.

There are some army builds where thats gonna hurt. This is one of those "tournament" rules that I see bleeding into casual matched play. I've always said that where the tourney crowd goes, the pickup scene follows.

I do think its ultimatley for the best however. People are notorious for there lack of restraint when it comes to 40k. So sadly this kinda stuff is necessary
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