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EldarOnline => Eldar => Topic started by: scotatheist on November 15, 2009, 06:27:00 PM

Title: Eldar support weapons
Post by: scotatheist on November 15, 2009, 06:27:00 PM
Does any one very use any support weapon batteries.

I never hear of these weapons being used, do they have their place, are they effective. ?

what tactics do you impliment them into. ?

I love the models and the concept therefore I would love to use them, only if they are reaosnably effective though.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Seer13 on November 15, 2009, 06:30:03 PM
Thy have one big minus the are static.
You can use them effectively but only in castle style army.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Irisado on November 15, 2009, 07:19:43 PM
There was a very good thread discussing these a while back, but with the search engine being a bit 'clunky' at the moment, it could me some time to find it, but if I do, I will post a link to it.

Support Weapons can be useful, but the main problem with them is, as Seer13 points out, that they are static, which means they are only really going to work in Eldar armies which have a very strong fire base, and are broadly looking to Castle, or play a gun line with perhaps some kind of reserve Deep Strike or outflanking force to catch the opposition off balance.  Both of these strategies, however, rely on your opponent coming to you, and this is where the problems start, since if you end up facing Imperial Guard or Tau, they will just stay in their deployment zone and out shoot you, which is why I don't think Support Weapons, in general, work that well in army lists designed to take on all comers.

Shadow Weavers are not too bad, providing you attach them to a well defended fire base, since they have a long range, so you can make them work with more aggressive Eldar lists, providing you ensure that you don't end up fielding a polarised list.

D Cannons, however, have far too short a range for that option to be viable, so they would only work well if you know your opponent will come towards you.

As for Vibrocannons, they might shake the odd vehicle about a bit, but otherwise I don't feel that they are especially useful, so unless you really do want to play a gun line style Eldar army, I don't recommend making room for these.

I hope that helps.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Galderon on November 15, 2009, 11:50:50 PM
I agree with all of the above and add that the weapons are relatively expensive and equally ineffective.
If you want a gun line take a squadron of War Walkers and have a Farseer with "Guide" to accompany them. That way you have a mobile fire base that will cause players to stay behind cover.I describe War Walkers as "soap bubbles armed with bludgeons" they will beat the stuffing out of everything but will easily go "pop."

To be honest I cant see the logic or feasibility of having a support weapons squad for the Eldar.   
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Partninja on November 16, 2009, 12:26:00 AM
I have used squads of shadow weavers in the past. A battery of three drops 3 cookies at S6. Seems appealing enough, but I always scattered too far to get enough wounds. They also take up a heavy slot. Prisms, at only 25pts more (Even without any upgrades) are more durable, have more range, infinitely better mobility, and have a better blast template.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Mr. Mayhem on November 16, 2009, 03:36:00 AM
I agree with all the cons, but the D-Cannon can be so tempting...
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Savatar on November 16, 2009, 04:57:42 AM
I have a little pet project footslogging list ,that uses D canons with warlock for his BS .If i get first turn they move forward giving me an area denial ,if the cover isn't available the harlies are the screen.This can cover a few objectives and the avatar and two wraithlords are a suitable distraction up the centre .This forces the enemy strong flank to redeploy to my castled side.Eldrads redeployment abilities are essential for this though .
So not really effective as a unit but coupled with an overall strategy can work on limiting your opponents choices if he wants to avoid them. ;)
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Kite66 on November 16, 2009, 04:00:11 PM
I think they are a bit too expensive for what you get and the fact they fill a heavy slot, which kinda sucks because of all the other much better units that are there. (I blame poor organization in that, but I wasn't here for 4th ed). For a heavy slot you should be getting a str 6 ap anything gun and not -, to me a - in a heavy slot is stupid. D-cannon seems nice but pricy and short ranged for an immoblile unit. Vibro cannon seems crummy, might be useful against a green tide if the orks are a few inches from the cannon in a nice tightpacked line.

They don't feel like they can keep up with all the other heavy slots. Not for being immobile (don't feel that is a huge problem) but the fact every other heavy slot is far superior to them.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Neostrider on November 16, 2009, 07:39:34 PM
Filling a heavy slot is the most expensive feature in my mind.  For point costs the D-cannons are an amazing investment.  They make short work of any Terminator squads, and can even take on almost any unit with ease.

It suffers from a few drawbacks that really hurt them however:

To be relatively accurate and useful you NEED the warlock for his BS 4 and support ability.  Embolden will keep the guns in the fight despite the odd lost man and Conceal can help when you're outside cover.  Also NEVER forget while taking shots to roll if a crewman was shot or if the gun was.  This sort of divided fire is hilarious because I've had lasguns bounce off the D-cannons and Las-cannons fry a lone guardian.

Which is my biggest problem with the whole unit.  As artillery, if they enter any terrain then there's a 1/6 chance the gun is destroyed.  Grrr.  I deploy them into terrain or give them conceal to keep the guns alive longer.

24" range is kinda short, but once you move off the table edge the gun starts to cover a lot more ground.I find they work best behind terrain (I believe they get cover saves for shooting through area terrain) with a clear alley forward and provide an advancing firebase to support a frontline.  If you moved the guns ALWAYS run the unit forward.  No point wasting a few crucial inches for a few catapult shots.

Question. The D-cannons are immobile?  where does it say there?
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Partninja on November 16, 2009, 10:39:28 PM
I have a little pet project footslogging list ,that uses D canons with warlock for his BS .

I was always under the impression that only the Guardian crew could fire the platform, not the warlock.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Kite66 on November 16, 2009, 10:52:22 PM
I have a little pet project footslogging list ,that uses D canons with warlock for his BS .

I was always under the impression that only the Guardian crew could fire the platform, not the warlock.

I've heard that too, makes sense why the lock can't shoot it.

Quote
The D-cannons are immobile?  where does it say there?
Sorry, I ment cannot move and shoot. D-cannon still has a small range for dumping 30 points while being fired from a BS 3 unit.

I do want to get some to screw around with though, maybe after using it I will like it like I do dark reapers. Except for the fact it still fills up a heavy slot and I love my wraithlords too much... :(
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Gutstikk on November 17, 2009, 08:59:45 AM
Attached ICs can't fire the gun, but you are always free to have any model that is part of an artillery unit fire the gun as per the artillery rules. This includes the warlock. There was discussion a while back about this, and those of us that looked it up were pleasantly surprised.

The shadow weaver can be quite useful when attacking hordes since cover gets determined by the center hole rather than the line between target and firing unit. So enemy units can't screen each other when being shot by the shadow weaver.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Savatar on November 17, 2009, 09:04:53 AM
I have a little pet project footslogging list ,that uses D canons with warlock for his BS .

I was always under the impression that only the Guardian crew could fire the platform, not the warlock.

Under artillery,The unit. page55 it states additional models added to the unit my fire the gun though independant characters can not .The warlock is an upgrade to the crew so can  ;)
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: FinRaziel on November 17, 2009, 01:04:56 PM
At the moment, the weapons are crap.

The Spinners should be range 60, S6, rendeing, pinning, big template for 50pts, the D-cannon range 48, Sx (as today), AP1, ordnance at 65 ptsand the concept  of the vibro cannon is hard to maintain with the downgrade of glancing hits ...

Maybe it would help, if we were allowe to stick them onto a wraithlord again ... T8 D-Cannon with BS4 ... *dreammodeover*
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Irisado on November 17, 2009, 01:27:17 PM
The Spinners should be range 60, S6, rendeing, pinning, big template for 50pts, the D-cannon range 48, Sx (as today), AP1, ordnance at 65 pt

Perhaps they should make ice cream during the game for you to eat as well  ;).

The problem is not so much the stat line in my view, rather it is the lack of mobility, and the fact that the competition in the heavy support section is intense, so they are only going to be taken in tailored Eldar lists as a result.

Given that not all players may not face a wide range of opposing armies though, some players may still find a use for them, and they certainly are not as bad as you are making them out to be in my view, even if they certainly are one of the weaker options in the current Eldar Codex.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: hobo1430 on November 17, 2009, 10:41:02 PM
I agree that is seems the biggest drawback is they take-up a heavy slot.  But where else would they go?  Could you seem them as a troop choice?
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Ail-Shan on November 17, 2009, 11:04:28 PM
I could see being allowed to forgo a heavy weapon platform for an artillery platform(s) in guardian squads. They are mounted on anti grav platforms anyway so really Eldar artillery should be able to move and fire as assault weapons the same as guardian heavy weapon platforms can. Make the D-cannon have an effective 30" range which isn't too bad. I'm a fan of the lord mounted D-cannon though, as it makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Gutstikk on November 18, 2009, 12:27:18 PM
I agree that is seems the biggest drawback is they take-up a heavy slot.  But where else would they go?  Could you seem them as a troop choice?

Why yes, actually I can. I've playtested them as a troops choice available once you purchase a stormguardian team or defender team. This one change alone fixes almost any problems with the unit as a unit - it can start on the table in every scenario, and doesn't mind holding an objective; with fortune and cover or conceal they are quite resilient as scoring units.

It's actually brilliant and makes a lot more sense for weapons teams consisting of what are essentially field guns to be considered defensive troops.

Some other changes could also make them more effective but the troops option goes a long way to making them worthwhile.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Seer13 on November 18, 2009, 06:09:07 PM
Or give them S&P,and make them option for guardians.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Rathireon on November 18, 2009, 09:16:57 PM
I like making army lists, the more unusual the better whilst still being effective.  I also like the look and potential of support platforms - a D-Cannon battery is just scary in theory, potentially being the most devastating unit in the whole Eldar armoury.  The drawbacks are the lack of mobility and terribly low survivability of the unit making them pitifully easy prey to deep striking enemies and such.

I really want these units to work though, so I try to fit them into an effective list... it doesn't work... the other Eldar heavy selections are too valuable.  Months later my previous attempt is a distant memory... ah support weapons I so want these to work... no, the other options are still too valuable.  Every once in a while I go through this same process... strangely, every single time the outcome is the same... no support weapons in my list.

If you want some fun and variety in your battles, then take them.  If you want that one in a hundred experience of seeing a Chaos Terminator squad and Daemon Prince all torn apart in one storm of warp powered devastation as only the Eldar can do, then take them.  If you want a consistently effective list, then forget it.

Edit: scratch that Daemon Prince, darn Eternal Warrior.  Let's say Khorne Lord with Bloodfeeder instead  ;D
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: scotatheist on November 20, 2009, 01:39:32 PM
Wow Thanks for the replies guys, you advice is much appreciated.

Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: enlg on November 20, 2009, 04:13:08 PM
i watched a guy use D-cannon's once, 3 of them +2 wraithlords and he was beating down a tyranid carny heavy list. He shot down his zoanthropes with the cannons and also badly hurt a carnifex (which died after from other shooting). his list was very mobile, but had the D-cannons+2 gaurdian units. then as I recal he had wraithguard, the lords, farseer and maybe another unit, although it was in a small gave and a relatively small board, not to mention it was 4th edition. but they can be good.

they are a bit too defensive for my liking, but if you had them on a home objective, they could blow open rhinos, maybe kill dreadnoughts that deep struck, instakill crisis suits, but also they could get shot down. but if they were fortuned they could survive along with the help of some good target saturation.

against mobile armies d-cannons could be great, especially for killing nobz in mega armor or on bikes. if you really want to use them, you will just have to make a list that is focused on them.

you will have to have units moving forwards to not let the artillary target the cannons, and then have some units around it to not make it a delectable deep-strike+crush unit. any units that enter mid-range of your objective can then be eliminated.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Neostrider on November 20, 2009, 08:01:29 PM
I like using them defensively (which is killer on a Capture game) by setting a Troop choice unit to hold the objective in cover and having the guns on the rear of that cover, guns outside and crew inside the cover.

This provides you the ability to move the artillery should you need without a dangerous terrain test, its as close as it can be to the rest of the board, covers the objective, and might give a cover save to the whole unit.  Covers saves aren't very clear with this sort of unit but since its listed BEFORE vehicles I'd say the gun models count a 1 so as long as you have a crew member for each gun it cover you should get the Sv.  It usually keeps the enemy from rushing into melee and letting you keep the hurt on from a range.  Close to a table edge and gaurdian unit you usually can stop Deep Strikers from hurting them.

Again, the worst limitation to them is not points or mobility.  its the stupid heavy slot and having EVERY choice we seem to have slid into it.  (Someone at GW:  "Is it big and effective?  put it in a heavy slot")
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Marlec on November 27, 2009, 11:25:50 PM
Gutstikk made a good hammer/anvil list in this post:
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=192558.0 (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=192558.0)

most people sees the support platforms (D-cannons especially) as defensive weapons... but when planning an army, every tactics has to be checked/tried... I didn't check the point costs, but I think the D-Cannons are one of the cheapest anvil we can make...

Marlec
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Abraxas on November 29, 2009, 05:00:29 PM
I have a little pet project footslogging list ,that uses D canons with warlock for his BS .

I was always under the impression that only the Guardian crew could fire the platform, not the warlock.

Under artillery,The unit. page55 it states additional models added to the unit my fire the gun though independant characters can not .The warlock is an upgrade to the crew so can  ;)

Pump the brakes!

So a Worlock in a Defender squad can shoot the BL? You mean I've listened to people say, "don't take a BL cause it's wasted with a BS of 3," all this time... for nothing?!?!
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Farceseer Syranaul on November 29, 2009, 05:04:24 PM
Umm, no.  The codex says in the Guardian entry that only the Gun Crew may fire the heavy weapon platform.  The Heavy Support Batteries are something entirely different.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Irisado on November 29, 2009, 05:04:38 PM
Pump the brakes!

So a Worlock in a Defender squad can shoot the BL? You mean I've listened to people say, "don't take a BL cause it's wasted with a BS of 3," all this time... for nothing?!?!

Don't get carried away just yet.  Those rules are for artillery, i.e. they do not affect heavy weapon platforms in Guardian squads, only Support Weapons.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Neostrider on November 30, 2009, 01:44:16 PM
The subtle difference is in who the crew is.  The support weapon listing only has a crew, and so the warlock gets added to it.  This is supported by the rules entry under artillery.

The guardian squad is a regular infantry unit with a weapon that has 2 of the guardians upgraded to crew.  The wording in the entry is something to the effect of "2 members are upgraded to crew members" so the warlock is not explicitly added to the crew part of the unit.  Since its not an artillery unit we can't assume the above rule applies.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: enlg on November 30, 2009, 05:23:42 PM
hey sorry to add another question, but if you have a group of 3 vibrocannons+warlock+6 crew, and the warlock fire every vibro cannon? or just shoot one of them...I know its probably not plausible, but can this occur? or do you need to have 1 model only use its BS for 1 gun. Just thinking a line of BS4 guided gives a good chance of str7 pinning for not all that many points.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Neostrider on November 30, 2009, 07:15:03 PM
Only 1 crew member can fire each gun.  In the case of no warlock, it doesn't really matter which one fires but when the warlock is present then he can choose to fire one of the guns.

Models that you don't designate as firing their guns may still fire their own hand held weapons I believe, so there is the possibility of a singing spear warlock opting to not fire the support weapons to throw the spear for example.  Don't forget those important shuriken catapult shots with your D-Cannons.  They may stop the inevitable charge.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Shadow Slayer on December 1, 2009, 09:58:58 PM
I feel like 5th ed made them a bit more appealing then they used to be due to the cover rules.

Personally, I've never been off put by their heavy support catagory.  There are enough choice units in the Fast Attack slot (Spiders and Spears) Where dropping a place in the heavy support section never seemed to really hurt as much as many think.

Also the way Falcon's have been brought down a notch in the new ed might have people looking elsewhere for their HS fix.

Platforms are good because they do one of two things, Be dirt cheap, or be powerful or annoying.

First lets get it out of the way, Vibrocannons are not the poster children they used to be.  But they still make good "disruption" choices that have decent range and can at the very least prevent that single railgun from shooting.

The D-cannon is now more useful then its ever been since 2nd ed, thanks to the fact that  deploying in table quarters will solve the issue about positioning it, While the running rules allow you to at least move it up the field in all other cases. 

But in my opinion, The Shadow Weaver takes the cake as beign the best choice.  Not because it does the most damage, but because it has great range, can be fired indirectly, and it is Cheap as dirt. 

I'm serious.  The cannon itself is less points then the two guardian's crewing it (if you use the point costs for standard guardians as a base.

If you have less then 100 points left floating around, want some ranged surpression fire, and a highly expendable unit, I find that the shadow weavers are definatly worth the points you spend for them.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: enlg on December 1, 2009, 11:41:43 PM
personally I think that most people have not tried these choices due to their cost in money. They are $30 a piece, so that relatively cheap unit will be $90. And although war walkers cost the same, war walkers are plastic, come in the battleforce and also once came in a 3 for the price of 2 pack (which I bought one of).

there is little circulation with these guns, and sadly they will probably not be redone for a while.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Shadow Slayer on December 2, 2009, 12:33:58 PM
personally I think that most people have not tried these choices due to their cost in money. They are $30 a piece, so that relatively cheap unit will be $90. And although war walkers cost the same, war walkers are plastic, come in the battleforce and also once came in a 3 for the price of 2 pack (which I bought one of).

there is little circulation with these guns, and sadly they will probably not be redone for a while.

Very true.  But the fact that they are aging models also works to your advantage when you are trying to get them on the cheap.

I myself have never payed more then 15 bucks for the ones I have, and its more to do with patience and looking at "alternative" websites to do your shoping / trading for them.  They are made out of THICK pewter, so I've never bought one that hasn't already been in good condition even if its used.  And once you have 3, you can stop, as they might be good for a single heavy support slot, but definatly start taking away if your trying to feild like 6 or 9 of them.

I don't think it has to do so much with the cost, as the stigma for using them.  You see people play Wraithguard troops, and those are definatly not on the cheap side of the fense. 

Its just that they are static, and because everyone is so in love with mech eldar, the stigma is that if you can't move 12 inches a turn, or move and shoot something, then your useless in an eldar list.  But thats just not the case. 
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Abraxas on December 2, 2009, 04:55:37 PM
Its just that they are static, and because everyone is so in love with mech eldar, the stigma is that if you can't move 12 inches a turn, or move and shoot something, then your useless in an eldar list.  But thats just not the case.

Tell us how you really feel ;) .
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: enlg on December 2, 2009, 06:55:56 PM
no, just that since all of eldar's units are mobile (besides dark reapers and rangers) you are left to either not use the mobility of our troops and stay behind with the support weapons, or leave them to get ravaged by many fast threats. Even gaurdians' best ability is that they fire a heavy weapon on the move. Its not just mech eldar, its all eldar.

and the fact is, support weapons can reach up to 175pts for 6 crew+warlock+weapons. that could be 3 war walkers that fires 24 shots. and the 3 war walkers aren't as weak as those 7 t3 models (they aren't WEAK, but they can be shot down if focused on more easily)
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Gutstikk on December 2, 2009, 07:03:36 PM
If in cover, and benefitting from fortune, the unit including the guns have the loveable rerollable 4+ cover save. It's much easier to get cover for the gun battery than any other vehicle type in the codex. 2/3 of the options ignore cover in most cases, or at least the most readily available types of cover.

24 scatterlaser shots is 12 hits, 10 wounds, 5 kills to most enemy units. A shadow weaver battery is likely to do at least as much damage for much less cost. D-cannons will do a lot more damage, with range being the biggest drawback, since anything they touch is likely to get killed, and the removal of the cover save greatly increases the deadliness.

The only thing is, I don't think gun batteries can actually run, since the unit moves at the speed of the slowest model, which is the artillery piece itself.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Kite66 on December 2, 2009, 07:56:00 PM
Do 3 support weapons (in a unit) fire like a barrage, ie after 1 template the others stick to it, or do they scatter on their own like a blast?
I'm thinking the foremer but I'm not sure with it being 3 different firing models in the unit.
Title: Re: Eldar support weapons
Post by: Ail-Shan on December 2, 2009, 08:32:08 PM
it works like a multiple barrage (other than the vibro cannon).