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Author Topic: Size of a bolter?  (Read 15778 times)

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Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #20 on: July 2, 2009, 10:54:50 PM »
I tend to agree. The bolter is really little more than a launching platform for self propelled rounds. The kick on a standard bolter would likely be no different than a autogun or similar solid round weapon.

However, this all depends on exactly when the actual propellant kicks in. If it goes off before the bolt leaves the barrel (This seems unlikely, as there wouldn't really be a need for an initial charge then) then the blow back could be sizable. Most rocket launchers have considerable kick, and if someone tried to fire one from the hip, it would likely break limbs. If Bolters work in a similar way, i can understand how people can see them as being so over bearing.
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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #21 on: July 3, 2009, 03:04:39 AM »
They're described as having a fair amount of recoil, which leads me to believe that the bolter shell is fired normally and then the propellant activates about half a second later once it's clear of the barrel.

Offline Librarian Nikol

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #22 on: July 3, 2009, 05:29:45 AM »
It could be that the smaller, simpler Guard bolters actually fire under a different principle, or have cheaper/less powerful rocket motors necessitating a larger initial charge to force it out of the barrel at a decent velocity.
Or it could be as far as to say that guard bolters act as normal, conventional firearms do and are fully cased gunpowder rounds that are fired wholly by the initial charge. That would explain it kicking like a mule, would probably be easier and cheaper to produce in large numbers, and would be the only kinds of bolters a normal human (besides SoB) would ever handle.
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #23 on: July 3, 2009, 05:40:48 PM »
I saw someone mentioning bolters working similarly to gyrojets back there (just... y'know, effective) and while I agree with that, you should know that last time I brought that up... well, suffice to say that there are people here who are violently against the idea. Don't ask me why.

- And aren't bolters renowned for their high-maintenance and complexity and not opposite?

Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #24 on: July 4, 2009, 02:26:24 AM »
I saw someone mentioning bolters working similarly to gyrojets back there (just... y'know, effective) and while I agree with that, you should know that last time I brought that up... well, suffice to say that there are people here who are violently against the idea. Don't ask me why.
Mostly because Gyrojets, as they stand, are terrible? According to wiki you can stop a Gyrojet by putting a piece of cardboard over the barrel -- try that with a bolter and it's like trying to stop a gale-force wind with a rolled-up newspaper.

The similarities are there, admittedly, but at the same time it's a chalk-and-cheese comparison.

Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #25 on: July 4, 2009, 05:24:54 PM »
I'd argue its more of a Musket - AA12 comparison.

Gyrojet are essentially the same weapon, just far less sophisticated.

Chalk and Cheese are two completely different things, where as the Gyrojet is the great great great (and so on) grand-daddy of the Bolter.
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Offline Shaviv

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #26 on: July 5, 2009, 12:25:50 AM »
I saw someone mentioning bolters working similarly to gyrojets back there (just... y'know, effective) and while I agree with that, you should know that last time I brought that up... well, suffice to say that there are people here who are violently against the idea. Don't ask me why.
Mostly because Gyrojets, as they stand, are terrible? According to wiki you can stop a Gyrojet by putting a piece of cardboard over the barrel -- try that with a bolter and it's like trying to stop a gale-force wind with a rolled-up newspaper.

The similarities are there, admittedly, but at the same time it's a chalk-and-cheese comparison.
The gyrojet's low muzzle velocity could probably be improved, though, by putting the round into a cartridge, and behind the motor have a normal powder charge for, let's say, a 10mm handgun round, and in between thepowder charge and the motor, have a tamper of some sort to reduce the chances of theinitial blast damaging the delicately machined nozzles.
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #27 on: July 5, 2009, 09:09:26 AM »
My point is simply that the gyrojet and the bolter are both based on the same principle; repeated firing of self-propelled rounds from a hand-held weapon. That's it.

Moving on, sorry if I created a digression.

Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2009, 01:23:46 AM »
Been awhile, but i had a touch of epiphany while looking around on Forge World's site. I came across a re-release of the old Space Marine piece, and they had the original advertising picture there. The stance shows the Marine reloading the bolter, and it shows clearly the actual cartridge breach. Low and behold, while only half paying attention, i noticed something. The rounds are placed in two columns.

A dual feed would account for the claims that the Bolter Clips hold 20-30 rounds without making them absurdly long. They would almost certainly have to be slightly broader than they are on the model, but its an answer to one mystery. How the rounds would feed without causing the weapon to jam is another matter, but its 35,000 years in the future, i feel we can assume they've found a solution.
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Offline Cpt. Pain

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2009, 06:07:54 PM »
Double column magazines are nothing special, the Thompson SMG had such a system...


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Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2009, 07:44:29 PM »
It's also terribly unreliable and jams often. Regardless, i brought it up as it gives an explanation for how a Bolter can have a 30 round clip without it being over half meter long.
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Offline Cpt. Pain

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2009, 07:58:39 PM »
Actually, its not 'terribly unreliable and jams a lot'. While zigzag stacked magzines do jam slightly more than single column magazines, they are really very good. Infact, the thompson, and its 20/30 round box magazines were highly regarded for their reliablity, more so that the staggered, single feed that the Sten and Mp40 used (which have to blend the two columns into one at the top). ALL modern assault rifles use them. A 7.62mm has a cartridge width of about half a inch, maybe more, a an associated 30 box magazine is nowhere near 50cm.

While it WAS a good idea, it was my no means the first time it was thought of  ;).


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Offline High Grandmaster smithmyster666 of the Grey Knights

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2009, 02:15:14 PM »
a bolter round id imagine is a similar size to the 35mm aircraft minigun round used nowadays just different in projectile shape and assembly of the round itself. anyone who hasnt seen the size of them theyre like miniature tank shells in size. so they would easily would have a magazine width of around 25cm when you add up the size of the casing for the mag and such on. you cant expect them to have flimsy 2mm steel as a casing so around 8mm of metallic substance is appropriate.
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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2009, 03:32:32 PM »
Quote
a bolter round id imagine is a similar size to the 35mm aircraft minigun round used nowadays
that's far too large, bolter shells are established to be .75 caliber which is about half that.

Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2009, 04:27:28 PM »
As for the "nah, that wouldn't work cuz it's hard to make"-argument I see pop up here every once in a while; it's 38,000 years in the future. They might just have solved some issues.

Also, the bolters are commonly referred to as being high-tech as well as reliable (and arguably high-maintenance. A possible contradiction, or?)

Offline Cpt. Pain

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2009, 06:55:28 PM »
Its not a contradiction, and the Nercomunda rules system agrees with you. Bolters (and to be honest, most military grade firearms in the game, excluding lasguns) are described as highly reliable when kept in condition by an armourer with the right tools. When used by the layperson, the frequency of jamming rises rapidly with useage.


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Offline Semaj_14

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2009, 06:07:16 AM »
On the Cased not cased ruling. I do remember reading somewhere that bolters took Caseless amunition. It may have been in one of the Index Astartes but I am probably remembering something else. Although The only reason I remember that Is because I turned around and looked up what the heck it meant by caseless ammunition.
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Size of a bolter?
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2009, 09:51:55 PM »
Let sleeping topics lie. There was no need to bring back a topic three weeks old. In future, please be careful to check the date of the last post. This board moves more slowly than many others, so be especially on your guard here.
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