Topic: 9/11 Pentagon planecrash

[Moonsinger]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5415578059017835301

Now, I saw this video waaaaay back and I think we all can agree that, THAT is not an airplane.

Agree or disagree anyone?

//Cheers

[Corpsman]

It is an aeroplane.

Let me explain why.

If it isn't a plane, 9/11 is a government conspiracy, and in that case it still has to be plane.

Here is a fact. Same day, 9/11, they announce officially, that a plane hit Pentagon.

It turns out, that there isn't any clear pictures about the plane. This is pointed by some to be a 'proof' about said conspiracy.

But, and this is important, US government couldn't have known that there isn't any pictures beforehand!

Think about these 'super-conspirators'. They think everything, right? Including the fact, that they can't before the event say, that there isn't some tourist, nature-photographer, would-be architect or just somebody taking picture of his girlfriend and their missile or whatever could have ended pictured clearly in that picture, shown on evening news and collapsing entire US-government, propably getting a lynch mob on White House lawn.

So, if there isn't a conspiracy, it is a plane.

And if there is a conspiracy, it still has to be a plane.

So, the thing in the picture is a plane. QED

[Moonsinger]

Ah, then it brings to the second question... What kind of plane is it?
there are only like ONE frame that you can actualy see a "plane" and that thing is damn small then.
they said it was an America Airline 77, a Boeing 757
http://www.twf.org/News/Y2005/0307-Fragment.jpg

but that is way smaller then that. now I don't really care about any CONSPIRACY.

but I do like to know if that thing really is a plane

(http://www.twf.org/News/Y2005/0307-Pentagon.html)

//Cheers

[Eddie666ak]

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/may2006/170506reallylook.htm

[Ollieb]

Just a couple of questions on this.  There are pics of plane wreckage and the video yet people still believe it is a hoax and we shot our own building that houses those who would have planned the invasion in order to give us a reason to invade Afghanistan.  Now with that said...
1.  What would it take to convince you that it was a plane and not a missile?
2.  Why would the government want to kill the very people it would rely on to plan and execute the invasion?
3.  Where are the people that were manifested on this plane if they weren't on it?  If the names were false, why has no one come forward and state that they live in town XX that Joe Shmoe, who was sitting in seat 14B, is listed as coming from and have never heard of him?

OK that is 3 questions so I'll hold the rest of them. 

[Moonsinger]

" A photo  from the Pentagon crash site shows what could be an engine part about 30 inches in diameter outside the Pentagon - a Boeing 757's engines are 8 or 9 feet in diameter."
http://www.twf.org/Gallery/Pentagon911/images/d4-Engine%20Part%3F.jpg

You quite notice that the two videos are different.
In the one I posted you don't see that big plane and it is moveing veeeery on the second movie (where you see it clearly) unatural since it should have begun spinning since its nose got hit in the side.


So little Eddie666ak, explain why it did so little damage and what happend to the wings?
None of such parts are seen flying, nor any dirt as a 100 tonage of plane slides over it.

[Eddie666ak]

Maybe I should have added some words with that link, I do not disagree with you, that video was just to show firstly how easy it is to doctor such low quality pictures and secondly if there was a plane in those low quality frames that is how big it should have been and thus clearly visable. I tend not to get into discussions on such matters because 100% of the time in the past it descends into insults against people, like myself, that do not believe the official sources of information. As that point evidence or opinions become irrelevant.

[The GrimSqueaker]

Since we're throwing links at each other. here's another one. It was a plane. This is just a red herring to confuse people from all the other screwy things that happened that day.

[Aesir Yggdrasil]

2.  Why would the government want to kill the very people it would rely on to plan and execute the invasion?

So the bigwigs could make a great deal of money for themselves, and look real shinny doing it. You know, do you really want to drag Americas Oil wars in here? It's just going to get messy until we drag in the 'I' word, and then all hell will break loose.

3.  Where are the people that were manifested on this plane if they weren't on it?  If the names were false, why has no one come forward and state that they live in town XX that Joe Shmoe, who was sitting in seat 14B, is listed as coming from and have never heard of him?

Not hard to make people up. Hell, you could even pay people to pretend they were friends/family so it'd look nice in the media. Ever seen 'Wag the Dog'? Bad movie, scarily true idea?

[Frescadude]

Honestly I saw nothing on that tape that changes my mind.  I still think it was a plane.  I actually didn't see anyting hit the pentagon on the tape but something you have to know is that security tapes like that have a very low frame rate, say 2 a sec.  It would be easy for the plane to travel the few feet in front of the camera in that 0.5 secs.

[Lomendil]

It was a plane - but the hijackers weren't Al Qaeda, they were Christian Funadmentalist 'martyrs' in the pay of Dick Cheney, who wanted a second 'Pearl Harbour' to dynamize the American people.

Etc.

Doesn't matter how strong the evidence for the accepted explanation is, there's always room for more conspiracy theory.

[TheOnlySpiral]

1.  What would it take to convince you that it was a plane and not a missile?

When the man who runs the US government can convince me he is a good honest man. 

[Corpsman]

It was a plane - but the hijackers weren't Al Qaeda, they were Christian Funadmentalist 'martyrs' in the pay of Dick Cheney, who wanted a second 'Pearl Harbour' to dynamize the American people.

Etc.

Doesn't matter how strong the evidence for the accepted explanation is, there's always room for more conspiracy theory.

One psych major once told me (after about 6 - 7 beers), that conspiracy theories are invented, so people can see someone in control. What people seek is understandable reasons for any given happening. They like to see a plan, a someone guiding everything, someone in controls with reasons they can understand. They may see those reasons as 'bad' and 'immoral', but they understand them. This way they don't have to confort unpredictability of the life.

Of course whole theory about conspiracy theories is just other similar attempt to bush something into understandable form, so same is true for psych majors.

[The Frugal Gamer]

One psych major once told me (after about 6 - 7 beers), that conspiracy theories are invented, so people can see someone in control. What people seek is understandable reasons for any given happening. They like to see a plan, a someone guiding everything, someone in controls with reasons they can understand. They may see those reasons as 'bad' and 'immoral', but they understand them. This way they don't have to confort unpredictability of the life.

Of course whole theory about conspiracy theories is just other similar attempt to bush something into understandable form, so same is true for psych majors.

This is truth.  Most of you guys are too young to remember JFK; heck, I was only a little kid when it happined although I remember it well.  Even so, you can't imagine today, with the bitter politics and nasty, partisan backbiting of the FOX News and Air Americas, just how much nearly ALL of Americans loved and respected JFK.  The whole assassination conspiracy industry was created just to fill the need many felt regarding the sudden loss of the President.  He was our King Arthur and his White House was our Camelot, and there was just no way he was vulnerable to such a looser as Lee Harvey Oswald.  Such a magnificent, mythic hero couldn't be brought down by anything so petty.  And so, the "magic bullet," "grassy knoll gunmen," & shadowy FBI/Mafia/Cuban conspiracies were born.  The truth is, of course, that JFK wasn't Arthur, and he was vulnerable to a lone nutjob.

Now, we have a new batch of conspiracy theories reaching out for much the same reasons to a new generation.  9-11 was so evil and so huge, so like a James Bond villain's plans for world domination that there just MUST be some evil conspiracy causing it to happin.  Never mind that the scope of the conspiracy necessary to cover up something like this would be so vast as to be ridiculous.  Remember Nixon couldn't even cover up a little break-in at the DNC.  The Shrub in the White House isn't half the man Nixon was* and couldn't officiate over this kind of conspiracy in a million years.


*Just because I'm using this comparison doesn't mean I'm a Nixon fan.  The man was a twisted sociopath.  But he was a brilliant twisted sociopath.

[Kritik]

Look, conspiracy theorists are always out there. They hold this assumption of this government, this assumption is their veil that filters fact and let through fiction that would appease their boring appetite. We have conspiracy theorists that believe George Bush is an Alien, we have conspiracist that believes that Satan is Jesus Christ, we have every single kind of conspiracist in the world. Those include individuals who believe that the government is out to get them. When they have this catastrophe, they just use it and twist it in every single conceivable way so that they can be heard.

That's my two cents.

[Eddie666ak]

Its funny that people are saying that its a pychological thing that our minds cannot accept the truth that it wasn't a conpiracy because we need to feel safe. I could say the same thing about people who do not beleive it was a conspiracy, that they cannot believe that the governent or ruling elite (the poeple who are supposed to protect them) would do or know about such a thing in advance and as such their minds would never accept anything different, no matter the evidence, becuase they want to feel safe in the world they know. Its very easy to label someone a 'conspiracy theroist' becuase automatically we are like one of those people portrayed on the mainstream media as a fruitloop and anything we say is obviously deluded and can be ignored.

[The Frugal Gamer]

Its funny that people are saying that its a pychological thing that our minds cannot accept the truth that it wasn't a conpiracy because we need to feel safe. I could say the same thing about people who do not beleive it was a conspiracy, that they cannot believe that the governent or ruling elite (the poeple who are supposed to protect them) would do or know about such a thing in advance and as such their minds would never accept anything different, no matter the evidence, becuase they want to feel safe in the world they know. Its very easy to label someone a 'conspiracy theroist' becuase automatically we are like one of those people portrayed on the mainstream media as a fruitloop and anything we say is obviously deluded and can be ignored.

Except that you are working against Occam's Razor.  One explaination requires a vast and omnipotent conspiracy.  The other requires simple humans doing simple and sometimes stupid things.  Which is more likely?

[Kritik]

OT: I love the game Deus Ex (the plot was intriguing)

Not OT:
What are the chances that a government conspiracy can happen? What are the chances it'll do something like that? Why?

Everything requires a why? A reason behind something's undertaking. Hypothetically, if the government did it, then why? For Oil? We could have easily invaded a middle eastern country without having to kill couple of thousands. And if they did require it, why hit the pentagon? Why another one in Pennsylvania? The very destruction of the world's tallest tower, the twin tower, the representation of the Economic Strength of America, toppoling, should be enough to arouse the American Oil for God Damn Oil reserves.

Bush would be too stupid to pull this off. By God, he's a person who was stupid enough to go on National Television and advocate Intelligent Design. He was stupid enough to pull funds from stem-cell research despite the mass unpopularity among international scientists. He is not smart enough to pull something like this off, and if he's been faking it the whole time, I will bow to him.

The reason why people think there is a conspiracy going on is because of the convenience it brought our president. The fact that we went after oil, and there, the lies began. Once the cookie started crumbling with 9/11, Bush was willing to let it crumble to pieces so it can be dipped in oil. He and his politics created those fake info and intel, that is what erupted the "conspiracy".

You tell me WHY people pulled off the conspiracy, and DO NOT tell me that they were merely bored, because someone was.

[Lomendil]

The 'why' is always the easy part. It's always possible to speculate about motive, and one can always invent a secret group of conspirators to fit with it if the leading political figures of the day don't. For 9/11, there are loads of things you could point to. Like Cheney saying around 2000 ish that the American people needed another Pearl Harbour to wake them up, or Bush (or the Neo-Cons behind him) wanting to give himself a cause that would make the US people rally around him, or the Pentagon hawks doing what MacArthur never could and taking matters into their own hands, or a shadowy group (Tri-lateral commission, Bilderburg Group, Illuminati, NWO, CIA, take your pick...) deciding that 'for the greater good' they'd start a War on Terror... Etc. No doubt there are some people out there who are convinced that aliens are behind it. David Icke will probably tell you it's the lizard shapechangers starting their take-over gambit.

Whenever part of the event doesn't seemingly fit with the motive - in this case, the attack on the Pentagon - it's time to play the ultimate Conspiracy Theory card: the 'It was done to throw us off the scent!' claim. With 9/11, I've seen a number of conspiracy theories that claim the wing of the Pentagon that was hit was unusually empty that day, and that certain high ranking officers had left only a short time before. They claim that this way 'they' (whoever they may be) could attack 'themselves' (assuming they had connections to the military...) with minimal collateral losses, and completely kill any ideas that it was anything other than a terrorist attack.

[Kritik]

Explain the one in Pennsylvania. despite the fact that it didn't crash into anything, the plane was there. Maybe the "ultimate conspiracy card" might lead somewhere, but the pennsylvania card was over the top.