Topic: 310th Vostroyan Firstborn--1750 point list

[Wyddr]

Been considering my next army project, and it might just be Vostroyans (though getting all the minis might cost a bit). Here we go:

HQ
Tank Commander in Exterminator Squadron (2 x Exterminators)

Troops

Platoon Alpha
--Platoon HQ w/3x Melta, 1x Flamer, Meltabombs
----In Chimera
--Squad 1 w/Vox, Grenade Launcher
--Squad 2 w/Grenade Launcher (probably combines with the above)
--Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 x Autocannons

Platoon Beta
--Platoon HQ w/3x Melta, 1x Flamer, Meltabombs
----In Chimera
--Squad 1 w/Vox, Grenade Launcher
--Squad 2 w/Grenade Launcher (probably combines with the above)
--Heavy Weapons Squad w/3 x Autocannons

Heavy Support
2 x Hydras
2 x Leman Russ Battle Tanks w/ Lascannons
2 x Leman Russ Battle Tanks w/ Lascannons

Totals
56 Infantry
10 Vehicles
12-14 Units
1750 points

Thoughts? Comments?

[Crawfskeezen]

Looks like a damn solid list. If your opponent isn't crying when they see 6 Leman Russ being set up they sure will be when they're picking casualties off the table.

Just a couple minor things. Why the voxes in the infantry squads if your PCS don't have them?

And Lascannons on the LRs are only gonna be snap shooting if you're firing your Battle Cannons, unless you plan on not shooting the Battle Cannons to fire the Lascannons at full BS, in which case I'd suggest swapping one of the tanks in, or the whole of one of the Leman Squadrons for (a) Vanquisher(s).

Good hunting Comrade.

[Spectral Arbor]

To list critique, Battlecannons + Lascannons isn't that great, damn'd loss of Lumbering Behemoth!

It looks to be gunline, and if so, I can assure you that an Aegis is worth it's weight in gold to add that extra "Up yours" when someone is shooting at a Russ, or your infantry, or anything at all. Even if not, if half your army is sitting still it's worth it.

Without a Lord Commissar, I wouldn't take HWT's as they're expensive and obscenely fragile. You're probably going to want them near the back of your DZ, so a single failed Ld test [42% of the time] after 2 [!] wounds and they basically run off after being shot by a 5 man squad, or get wiped by a full squad shooting at them. Better off with a pair of Sentinels with AC's, for the points. Tougher, provide better speed-bumping, and they're mobile.

Without a Ld boost character, I'd advise against blobbing infantry, as they're safer speed-bumping for each other.

If you're into the fluff behind the Vostroyans, they come with Carapace armour and "Artisanal" Lasguns, best represented by Carapace Vets. Carapace Vets also happen to be amazing. In my mind, Carapace is an auto upgrade for competitive Vet building. Maybe just my metagame, but it is my honest experience. To that end, were I to incorporate that idea, I'd go with a dual FOC build... sorry that the points are off a bit, Codex is an hour away.


FOC#1: 930 ish points

CCS: Lascannon, MoO, Vox, Kurov's Aquila, Chimera MuL, HB

Vets: Carapace, Boltgun, 3x PG, AC, Vox

Vets: Carapace, BG, 3x PG, AC, Vox

LR Executioner: Lascannon, 2x PC

LR Vanquisher: LC, 2x MM

Hydra:


FOC#2: 820 ish points

CCS: 3x Melta, Vox, Chimera MuL, HF

Vets: Carapace, BG, 2x Melta, 1x Plasma, AC, Vox, Chimera Mul, HF

Vets: Carapace, BG, 2x Melta, 1x Plasma, AC, Vox, Chimera Mul, HF

LR Demo: HB

LR Exterminator: LC, 2x MM

Hydra:

** I forgot to put Carapace on the CCS squads. Need points shaved from somewhere to accommodate fluff. **


FOC #1: Kurov's Aquila effectively reduces overheat damage to next to nothing. Carapace keeps you alive if you're short on cover, or you get hit with flamers. Sit'n'shoot units need to be able to engage all varieties of targets. They don't get to choose what they shoot, your opponent does.

Russes flank the CCS to prevent LOS to the weak flanks of the Chimera. If you can work in an Aegis, you're laughing, hard, at anything that tries to hurt them. With orders, you can split the AC's off from the Infantry, to try to pop a whatever. Add some snaps to firing at that annoying flyer!

FOC 2:The Vets are able to engage at all ranges, maximising their damage output from within the Chimera. Long range? Plasma + AC vs vehicles [even if moving, snaps aren't bad] or Plasma + BG against infantry. Up close? Double tap vs light infantry, or Melt that vehicle, or take 3 shots against Elite infantry / MC. Limited fire points rewards mixed weapon load-outs. Forget the flamer, you've got a heavy flamer on the front of your tank, and the short range matters for wound stacking.

Move the Exterminator up with the rest of FOC #2. That ensures you have med/light vehicle opening available to increase the effectiveness of the Demolisher. Open a can, splat the sardines, wipe up the leftovers. That load out is also handy for Flyer tagging. Not great, but a good secondary plan. Tertiary role in elite-infantry / MC hunting.

If you're into cheese, and still don't like an Aegis, the Stronghold rules have those Battlecannon turret buildings for something like 80 points each? Two BC for the price of one LRBT.

[Wyddr]

Just a couple minor things. Why the voxes in the infantry squads if your PCS don't have them?

Ah, yes--an oversight. Swap Flamers for Voxes.

@GBT
I'm very much *not* making a gunline. Or, if I am, it's one that moves. Slowly, granted, but it will move forward. The principle is tanks protected by infantry or infantry protected by tanks moving towards a mid-field objective or two, shooting as they go. So, no Aegis, no fortifications, and no sitting on my hands.

Since it doesn't matter who lives, since everything scores these days, the worry over the opponent focusing fire on my infantry squads is minimal--they'll *probably* shoot the Russes or the Chimeras first, and the infantry can stick around long enough to get where they're going. My initial thought was keeping the squads separate unless facing assault-oriented armies, as it would make the most of the two orders I can issue a turn.

Your list looks all well and good, but it isn't the kind of list I want to play--no Vets in Chimeras, thank you. Blech. Played against that enough to know I wouldn't want to play it myself. Now, Vets on foot *might* work out--I'll need to run the numbers--but they're going to be marching forward, one way or another.

I generally object to twin CCS on principle (how many company commanders can one outfit have, anyway?), though I recognize the practicality in the instance you're taking four Vet Squads.

The whole purpose of the list is tanks, though. Tanks that roll ahead. I was tempted by the Demolisher, but the range is just too damned short and the tank is too damned slow to make it worth the cost (not to mention that there isn't much the Demolisher Cannon is *that* much better at than a Battle Cannon, the occasional 6 on the Vehicle Damage table and the occasional lone Land Raider aside). The DE/Eldar that infest this area of space will keep it moving 4 turns before it gets a damn shot off.

I will ditch the Lascannons off the basic Russ, certainly. I won't take Vanquishers (7th Ed made that Vanquisher cannon a piss poor antitank gun for the cost) and Executioners just seem to be asking to melt on me (I roll 1s like it's my job). Basic Russ and Exterminators are really where it's at for me. I'd take Eradicators if I ever expected to see another Ork player again, but I don't (or at least very, very rarely).

Fact is that you kill enemy tanks on hull points these days, and only on pens if you're lucky and it's an AP1 weapon. When your targets are packing Flickerfields and Holofields and are jinking to hell and back, leave the one-shot wonders at home. I'll consider ditching the Autocannon Squads, but I'm certain to miss them, regardless of their fragility. My 7th Edition Metagame has become having to play well at ranges exceeding 30", and the Autocannons throw a lot of lead a long way for short points. They're there to pop transports, and the infantry and the basic Russ clean up what rolls out of the wreck.

This will require some testing. The Autocannon Sentinels sound intriguing, at any rate, and I've got the FA slots to spare. I'll try them out.   

[Spectral Arbor]

Just a Ghost of a Tree now. Noisier than I've been for a few months, but planning to return to rest soon.

If you're moving Infantry up the field as tank shields, they need Carapace. Harder to get cover, and assuming you live in the world of AP 5 rapid fire weapons, you will have a half-decent chance of surviving a hail of fire. If living long enough to speed-bump is their primary goal, then you get statistically equal survivability against Bolters, for 70% of the price, compared to a pair of Infantry Squads. You also get 150% of the special weapon slots, which are more useful on the move than Heavies. Besides, WYSIWYG, they're wearing it.

Honestly, if your opponents are outside of 24", you're winning with Guard. That's what makes Demolishers more valuable in a TAC list than a LRBT, especially if you're advancing. You can only lose once your opponent gets within 24" [30", for Tau] and that's where the Demolisher, FRF SRF, and Punisher shine. That opinion is based on years of playing with some sit'n'shoot, some mobile, but it's well tried. That said, I don't see a lot of Eldar any more, but I used to back in the day. I don't know if you're seeing much T5 in your area, or TEQ spam... but Demos are gold against them, and I'm seeing that more and more.

Hydras suffer on the move, so I guess that between them and the HWT's, that's where I pulled Gunline as an idea. If you wouldn't make a sit'n'shoot Eldar army, you shouldn't plan on a top-teir, competitive, entirely mobile Guard force. It's simply not their strength. If that's not what you're going for, then happy days, but if you're looking to squeeze every drop of power from a list, fully mobile isn't Guard's strong suit. Sub the Hydras for a Vendetta. It's only a little overcosted, and much more mobile / versatile.

However! If you're planning to march to the jaws of death, Armoured Sentinels are an excellent accompaniment to your infantry. Mobile "heavies" that can intercept units that would smite your other vehicles, or slaughter your infantry.

Twin CCS isn't necessary, but the buffs to foot based infantry are immense. My idea with twin FOC was to get the number of Tanks you were after, without squadrons. Close combat is seeing a bit of a resurgence in my area, and two Russ get wiped just as quickly as a single Russ, once the Krak grenades start getting planted. I tried squadding tanks, and I don't even like the HQ with the option to Split Fire the Commander. Just increases their vulnerability beyond what I found acceptable.

My experience has been that 1 shot weapons are still quite capable of taking things down, and if you want to have a chance to take something out in the first turn or two, you still need them. Start with the one-shots, and finish off survivors with AC's. If you can wreck their Land Raider in their deployment zone, even if the chances are poor, it's still worth doing to deny the Death Star their mobility... especially if you're moving to the middle. 5 Meltas, at melta range, with MEQ BS have a 50/50 chance to explode an AV 14 target... and things get a lot better as AV drops. They've still got their place in my lists... a choice based on Mathammer and table time experience. On that basis, I dispute the "fact" that HP is the only way vehicles go down. Not with Guard, anyhow.

I see some definite differences in our metagames. My game is getting closer, instead of further. I'm seeing lots of concentrated firepower armies, swooping in, wiping units, and then having one or two assault units wade in after the "Tactical Equivalent Unit" launches a pinning assault. To that end, I'm finding Guard's overall lack of mobility to be their greatest weakness. It can be worked around, of course, but I find that's the greatest challenge with them.

If you weren't aiming to use Vostroyans, or you were inclined to use other models alongside them, Conscripts with Priests make stupid good bodyguards for mobile Russ.

[Wyddr]

I did think about Conscripts for a bit, but the numbers don't crunch right. You need to buy 2 Infantry squads anyway to get them, and by that point the balance between infantry and tanks decline.

My reasoning with the Demolishers was the same with yours, initially. I've played enough games now to see how poorly those slow 24" targets fare against what is *mostly* Eldar and Dark Eldar (and shooty Ultramarines). I don't really have an assault problem--the only assault I need to deal with are Wyches, and Wyches are easy to blow up. The Eldar just pick you off with Wave Serpents at long range and then dissect the remnants with whatever is inside the wave serpents. My tanks generally don't have to worry about assault, since most Eldar/DE units can't threaten Vehicles in assault.

The one-shot kills are very, very rare now unless you can spam a ton of AP2 weapons. If you stick enough plasma on the board, then I guess it can be done, but we run into the whole "the enemy is 31" away from you" problem again. The odds on a Vanquisher scoring a one-shot kill on AV12 (call it average) are ~6%, assuming there's no cover. That is pretty damned awful. Each BS4 plasma gun has a 2% chance of the same, or one out of 50 shots. Even a meltagun is pushing it (one BS3 meltagun vs AV12 gets 12% odds for a one-shot), and you need four to even get to flip the coin. Going for the HP kill is way, waaaay more likely except against AV14, and then that's more a matter of not having sufficient Str 9 guns to strip hull points.

The numbers don't lie there. Better to take autocannons and strip HPs--more reliable. Save the meltaguns and such for those rare targets (Land Raiders, AV13 vehicles) that need special attention. If you play against AV13 Necron Spam, just start crying.

Carapace Vets are, as I said, tempting. The cost, though, is of concern. They cost a hell of a lot more and, while somewhat more durable, they can hardly be said to be tough. 4+ saves are okay, but more bodies are also useful. Throwing all those points into what are only slightly-less-squishy guardsmen is concerning. I'll see about making it work, though, because it would fit the Vostroyans nicely.     
Post Merge: September 21, 2014, 04:24:07 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.Okay, let's try Version 2:

Tank Commander in Exterminator w/Lascannon, Hvy Stubber
--+ 1 Exterminator w/Lascannon, Hvy Stubber

Company Command Squad w/Carapace, Krak, Meltabombs, 3 x Meltaguns, Vox
--in Chimera (w/Hvy Flamer)

Carapace Vets w/ 2x Plasma, Krak, Vox
Carapace Vets w/ 2x Plasma, Krak, Vox
Carapace Vets w/ 2x Plasma, Krak, Vox

3 Armored Sentinels w/ Missile Launchers (or ACs)

2 x Hydra
2 x LRBT
2 x LRBT

So, I'm down 15 infantry and one tank, lost 3 Meltaguns in the deal. I'm about even on AT firepower, except now those Lascannons will actually be able to aim.

I think the Carapace Vets might work out, here, but I wish I had more of them. Could drop the Sentinels for more, but then I lose out on the extra AV and the firepower (plus the army is less spammy with them in, which I like). I'm still taking 6 Russes with infantry support, moving forward. Hmmmm...

Not sure which version works better. Of course, in this version I need to shell out for fewer Vostroyans overall, which my wallet appreciates.

[Spectral Arbor]

I have sit'n'shoot platoons in my standard builds, so there's no tax to take a blob of 30 Cons with a Priest. At about 115 pts, they're more than enough to tarpit anything twice their value for a good long time... and enough damage with a FRF SRF order to make them worth their weight.

My only suggestion at this point would be to sub one pair of LRBT's for a pair of Eradicators with Plasma Cannons.

It does shrink their ideal range to 36", and you've already expressed that you're wanting to keep ranges as long as possible... but a pair of Plasma Cannons is just as good as a single Battlecannon, vs MEQ. They're better vs TEQ. The Eradicator is just as good versus Carapace or less, and prevents such models from gaining a save. An accurate Heavy bolter thrown into the deal is kind of icing on the cake, or for 10 pts more than a LRBT, you could toss an accurate Lascannon, for a single weapon that beats the LRBT's AT capability. Add Plasma against AV 12-, and you're laughing.

One last thing, that I think is just vexing about the CCS. When the Veterans upgrade to Carapace, that doesn't include the Commander. He has to buy his upgrade from the wargear list, and the advisors can't take Carapace. Worth noting if you're looking to make your lists 100% legit.

I'm looking forward to the battle report!

[Wyddr]

I'm looking forward to the battle report!

Thanks--you might be waiting a while, though. This list will start to be built when (and if) a friend of mine starts building his army.

The Eradicators look cool, and I did think about them. I need more tools to crack transports, though.

I actually stumbled across a build of Vanquisher that might work out, actually. Vanquisher w/Lascannon, Multimelta sponsons, Tank Commander. This gives me the multiple shots I need (less at range, but still more than one shot at a good BS).

I came up with one more version of the list. I dropped a LRBT, moved the Exterminators to Heavy Support, and upgraded one LRBT to the Commander's Ride as described above. This gives me one more team of Grenadiers and that means two detachments, meaning I can break up all the tank squadrons. I'll probably keep the Sentinels together, just so I'm not giving First Blood away *every* game.

Anyway, thanks for the help, GBT. See you around.