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Author Topic: Dire Avenger Tactics  (Read 13976 times)

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Offline Farceseer Syranaul

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2007, 11:46:07 AM »
I almost always use the diresword and pistol combo.  Mostly because I still only have the third edition exarch.  However, I like it because it works well with either defend or bladestorm.  The extra attack it nice as well.
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Offline srintuar

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2007, 12:14:14 PM »
I'm honestly quite baffled by the people that say that the shimmershield/pw combo is useless.

I can't tell you how many 5 man terminator squads have met their end at the hands of a DA squad that shot it first, then charged it in CC.

That power weapon is quite possibly the most underrated piece of kit in the codex.

Its another one of those "doesn't look good on paper but in practice its pretty useful" items.  In my experience anyways.

Well, if the shimmer shield worked against shooting, or was at least a 4+ invulnerable, i would definitely consider it effective.
But a 5+ invulnerable save on a T3 model is not really that impressive. Plus, the shimmer shield costs the exarch one attack in assault, meaning the S3 power weapon is going to hit less.

I don't think it adds enough to be worthwhile, especially compared to the price of a spare shurikat, and the number of shots its liable to put out over the course of a game. 4 BS5 shots at STR4 is pretty good for its price (1.1 dead marines, 0.27 dead termies). 2 WS5 power attacks at STR3  is not so impressive considering the cost(0.44 dead marines, 0.29 deat termies). A bladestorm+charge tilts the balance even more, with the shurikats outperforming vs all enemies.

So I'd only take the shimmer shield for style and fun, myself. (or if i planned to fortune them for tar-baby usage)






Offline Farceseer Syranaul

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2007, 02:01:19 PM »
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.
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Offline srintuar

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2007, 03:30:33 PM »
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.

Warlocks have 4+ saves.

Sure, 5+ is better than nothing. But whether or not its worth getting depends on how much it costs.
If its going to cost me 4 bs 5 shuriken shots, and a ton of points in addition, maybe ill choose to pass.


Offline Lascidel

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2007, 05:15:11 PM »
I haven't tried the CC dimension yet, but I've had great success in groups of 10 footsloggers with an exarch with Dual cats. What a fantastic unit. A pair of them working in tandem is wonderful, and they are usually accompanied by Eldrad. With Doom, that's a lot of dying, and all 3 units are at their best when they are in that 13-18" sweet spot. Hovering at that range, unloading (Guided?) Doomed shuricats, Mindwars, and/or Eld Storms is a wonderful thing.

I love that extra range on the shuricat. It means staying out of assault range against most units, and as for those jumpackers, well, just need to bring down the rest of the list's firepower on them.

I've focused mostly on staying out of assault, and as such, Bladestorm has not been needed, but I could see its effectiveness.
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Offline ranger_55

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2007, 06:48:19 PM »
Quote
Well, if the shimmer shield worked against shooting, or was at least a 4+ invulnerable, i would definitely consider it effective.

I agree if the shield worked against shooting attacks it would be a much better item.

Quote
That power weapon is quite possibly the most underrated piece of kit in the codex.

power weapons are great, having said that power weapons that come with a pistol to get and extra attack are even better...thus I feel the dire sword/pistol combo being better.

Quote
I almost always use the diresword and pistol combo.  Mostly because I still only have the third edition exarch.  However, I like it because it works well with either defend or bladestorm.  The extra attack it nice as well.

Well said. I must say that as far as the model goes the dire sword / pistol combo looks very cool.

There seem to be a lot of people that love to charge dire avengers into terminators and other nasty close combat troops....I am beginning to wonder why they are not using normal close combat units against them...
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Offline Farceseer Syranaul

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2007, 02:49:46 AM »
Warlocks have 4+ saves.

Sure, 5+ is better than nothing. But whether or not its worth getting depends on how much it costs.
If its going to cost me 4 bs 5 shuriken shots, and a ton of points in addition, maybe ill choose to pass.
We pay enough for that 4+ invulnerable save for a model with a weak toughness, and average skills.

Conceal gives a circumstantial save that doesn't work in melee or against template weapons.
Shimmershield gives a circumstantial save that does work in melee, and dire avengers already have a save against most template weapons.  Plus a power weapon for the same price.

I think it is pretty good deal.
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Offline Lofton

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #27 on: September 3, 2007, 02:41:20 PM »
OK I will be facing necrons and prob some space marines for sure. Can DAs do a number on necrons as well? im looking at about 20 DAs and my opponent has 29 warriors/necrons and rest bike sqaud ones with a lord.

Offline robdark22

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #28 on: September 4, 2007, 12:22:51 AM »
the only thing i keep seeing as a problem is that anyone who uses a prue da troop choice army is going to have problem because you only have 18 inchs that one thing i keep see as a problem. to answer the question is that if you have bike with you use them to cover your dire avnger so that you wont be over exposed to the fire of the bike his army by  couter his range and speed with yours. i say this because i did run dire avnger  until i discovered that everyone figure out how beat them un in the terrain set up and that was the biggest weakness i finding out now when i praticeing with them again. i would also say that have 2 squads is good in low point games but in high point game around 1250 to 1500 bike would also be a  good buy also...
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Offline echo34

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #29 on: September 4, 2007, 12:37:25 AM »
First off, I think this thread is a little old and you may want to not post in something this dead.

However, in response to their effectiveness versus necrons. Someone had done the math on another forum and if I remember correctly, it comes out to roughly 3-4 necrons dead when being shot by a full DA squad including exarch,b ladestorm and dual shuriken catapults with that unit being doomed as well, then about 1-2 after the WBB roll the necrons get.

Therefore, the DAs are not as effective against the necrons as one would hope for.
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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #30 on: September 5, 2007, 02:24:22 AM »
This topic is stickied within the FAQ so post post post away, as is the purpose of a FAQ is to keep new articles from popping up to host peoples opinions and questions.
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Offline Mordekiem

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #31 on: September 5, 2007, 09:05:48 PM »
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.
Templar assault squads can all have storm shields.  And I beleive some of the new BA units can get Storm shields as well.  Assault terminators can also get all storm shields.  I believe Sisters can also make there 3+ save an invulnerable one as well.  Then of course you have turbo-boosting bikes on top of that.

Quote
However, in response to their effectiveness versus necrons. Someone had done the math on another forum and if I remember correctly, it comes out to roughly 3-4 necrons dead when being shot by a full DA squad including exarch,b ladestorm and dual shuriken catapults with that unit being doomed as well, then about 1-2 after the WBB roll the necrons get.
this is pretty close.  A doomed unit fo necrons will probably lose about 4-5 members to BSing avengers.  Then between the WBB roll and a teleporting monolith they will get 75% of them back.  So you will be lucky if 2 necrons stay down.  Now if you could combine that with a second squad and some other shooting then you may be able to knock out a whole squad.  of course you also have to isolate a squad from the rest of the army.  If you have some tanks you can tank shock them to put some space between them. :)
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Offline moc065

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #32 on: September 6, 2007, 10:35:22 AM »
I'm honestly quite baffled by the people that say that the shimmershield/pw combo is useless.

I can't tell you how many 5 man terminator squads have met their end at the hands of a DA squad that shot it first, then charged it in CC.

That power weapon is quite possibly the most underrated piece of kit in the codex.

Its another one of those "doesn't look good on paper but in practice its pretty useful" items.  In my experience anyways.

OK, I played a pick-up game with 4 players in it and I have to tell you about this crazy experience with DA..

My counterpart had 1000pts of Blood Angels and I had 500pts of Eldar against 1500pts of Tyranids (one FOC per side). My part happened to consist of 8 DA: Exarch with p-weapon % shimmershield and Bladestorm. After some mediocre movement on my turn 1 and our opponets turn 2 advance my poor little Dire Avengers where staring a big crazy-eyed Winged Hive Tyrant in the face. Anyway, I figured they were going to die soon enough so I decided to see what would happen and Bladestormed into the Hive Tyrant: well the 20+ shots actually bagged me 2 wounds on Hive Tyrant, and then when I assaulted him I gave him 1 more wound. Yes I lost 2 DA; but I thought the squad was doing pretty well. On turn 3 (His CC phase) I did loose 2 more DA; but, with their pure Eldar scalple like finesse - I dropped the Hive Tyrant (thanks to the Power-Weapon). Now it didn't matter that a squad killed soem Genestealers on my next turn before it was devoured on his turn, the Dire Avengers easily paid for themselves with the Hive Tyrant (not even accountinf for what that thing could have done to those small Blood Angel Squads behind them) and the look on my opponent's faces when their "Big Crazy-eyed" tyrant died was priceless. PS, the Guardian with Scatterlaser Platform and the Harlequin squad also did very well through the game and we gained a Victorious Slaughter in the end....

My 2 cents = Dire Avengers and Guardians should not be discounted in the Eldar host, they do certain things well, and their ability to continually perform well regarless of enemy is one of those things that just doesn't look good on paper; but works, none the less.

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Offline robdark22

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #33 on: September 6, 2007, 12:04:54 PM »
nothing better said then the look of a 152 unit kill 2x or 3x the point before it die in the game..
see that look make me happy seeing that they never really understood when eldar have the to much fire power in the turn you need it  to take the game. i could rember when i was playing aganist tynarid and shot  the wholely crap out of his small stuff leaving the mc left then killing them the next turn it was fun ti see..
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Offline Farceseer Syranaul

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #34 on: September 6, 2007, 01:19:52 PM »
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.
Templar assault squads can all have storm shields.  And I beleive some of the new BA units can get Storm shields as well.  Assault terminators can also get all storm shields.  I believe Sisters can also make there 3+ save an invulnerable one as well.  Then of course you have turbo-boosting bikes on top of that.

How much do you pay for those storm shields?  I bet it is much more than what dire avengers pay.
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Offline myles

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #35 on: September 6, 2007, 01:25:56 PM »
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.
Templar assault squads can all have storm shields.  And I beleive some of the new BA units can get Storm shields as well.  Assault terminators can also get all storm shields.  I believe Sisters can also make there 3+ save an invulnerable one as well.  Then of course you have turbo-boosting bikes on top of that.

Not to mention that if you are to take storm shields for an assault based squad (which is the only type of squad that can have them for everyone) you are shooting yourself in the foot, because you're dropping the close combat ability of that squad.

Also, turbo-boosting a bike does nothing for it in CC, and the battle sisters thing is not only something that can be done a limited number of times, but also something that is not entirely reliable. So yeah, I'd say that a 5++ for the whole squad is rather good indeed, especially when they're pretty much basic troop models, as opposed to super elite models like terminators.
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Offline moc065

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #36 on: September 6, 2007, 03:07:27 PM »

     The great thing about the DA having 5++ is that the base cost of the models is relatively cheap, and adding the Exarch with Shimmershield & p-weapon and Bladestorm only adds additional 42pts to the entire squad... Which brings the cost per figure up to about 16pts each (10 man squad with Exarch, pw & ss and Bladestorm = 162pts). Not to bad for a squad that has average stats or better across the board, can fleet of foot, increase their rate of fire and then assault an enemy when the opportunity arrises, not to mention that the models actually look decent as well.

    Anyway, I like DA and Guardians and think that both units work very well on their own, and only get better when you start to combine their attributes with some ofhte other awesome choices in the Eldar host (Wave Serpent anyone ?).

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Offline Mordekiem

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #37 on: September 8, 2007, 04:56:36 AM »
To my knowledge, other than the Necron wraiths, a 5+ invulnerable is the best a whole squad has.  Anything with a 4+ or better is either an independent character or a monstrous creature.  A 5+ invulnerable save for the whole squad is much better than no save at all against any power weapon or monstrous creature.  If you expect better, then I think you expect to much.
Templar assault squads can all have storm shields.  And I beleive some of the new BA units can get Storm shields as well.  Assault terminators can also get all storm shields.  I believe Sisters can also make there 3+ save an invulnerable one as well.  Then of course you have turbo-boosting bikes on top of that.

Not to mention that if you are to take storm shields for an assault based squad (which is the only type of squad that can have them for everyone) you are shooting yourself in the foot, because you're dropping the close combat ability of that squad.

Also, turbo-boosting a bike does nothing for it in CC, and the battle sisters thing is not only something that can be done a limited number of times, but also something that is not entirely reliable. So yeah, I'd say that a 5++ for the whole squad is rather good indeed, especially when they're pretty much basic troop models, as opposed to super elite models like terminators.
Hey, I am not saying anything is good or bad.  I am just saying that there are other non-IC, non-MC units that have invulns under 5++.

Just for the record though.  Templar assault squads can get the shields for 3 points each and they are a very viable option that changes there close combat ability and let's them take on different roles.  If you want to talk about them more just hop over to the SM section.
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Offline TheEldarGuy

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2007, 05:37:01 AM »
In a very recent game vs some Chaos derivative that had plague Marines and a special rule that removed models...

I used a single squad of DA (elegantly deployed from a Serpent) unloaded with 30+ shots into a big Ogre type thing and removed it. Next round, they got back in and zoomed away.

We were playing a 1,000 point game and I reckon that guy had to be nearly half the points.

Offline tegeus-Cromis

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2007, 05:40:12 AM »
Are you sure about this? I can't think of a single "big Ogre type thing" in the Chaos list that costs 500 points, yet could be killed in a single Bladestorm. More info, please.

 


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