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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Sooooo...
« on: September 20, 2013, 09:54:59 PM »
...this place is still dead, slow, and horrendously mismanaged?

What a surprise. I gather there's been a story spun that the Penguins (and some mods) who left the forum in a big, simultaneous mob did so by coincidence? Yeah, that's at best willful self-denial on the part of the remaining active staff, at worst a big fat lie. For years this forum was the only one I was involved in, and I was involved A LOT (witness my post count: not a spammer neither). It genuinely upsets me to see the place in this kind of shape. The idea that all forums are going through a rough patch and therefore there's no reason to be concerned is laughable in its ridiculousness.  Take a look at the forum stats, they're very illustrative.

I'll see any Nid players over on The Tyranid Hive. The rest of you: so long, it was a real blast.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 10:04:57 PM by Rummy »
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 06:18:24 AM »
It's a shame to see you go, especially in this manner, because, in the past, you've done a lot for this forum.  It's also worth noting that a lot of the changes that you suggested have actually been implemented, so it's not as though you were not being listened to.

I find it disappointing that you've decided to make certain allegations which don't mirror the reality of the situation, so I'm going to disagree with your analysis about forums in general.  As a member of a large number of forums, I assure you that it is the case that traffic and activity are down on all of them.  Even the forum where the software we use is produced, which has a massive membership, and very loose rules, has seen a significant drop in activity in the last couple of years.  Other wargaming forums have dropped off too.  I won't name them all, as members here can find them easily enough, should they wish to, but in nearly all cases, they are not as active as they used to be.

There also appears to be an implication in your post that it's you who is upset by the current activity levels on the forum, and that somehow the rest of us don't care.  I could be misreading this, so you're welcome to correct me, and I actually hope you do, because I would really like to be mistaken about this.  The fact of the matter is that, speaking for myself, I do care, and I would like to see a lot more activity.  The Staff cannot, however, collectively hold a gun to the heads of members and make them post.  In addition, posting for the sake of posting is bad, as it doesn't lead to any sort of quality discussion.

To deal with your second off base claim regarding certain members leaving in a cluster.  We lost a whole raft of members at roughly the same time back in 2011/2012.  This had nothing to do with issues raised by anyone in recent times, and had everything to do with people moving on to new projects, and/or giving up the game.  We lost a lot of experienced people, particularly on the Eldar boards, and when you lose a lot of experienced users, it creates a void in posting.  One such former active contributor to the site even dropped in to confirm this version of events, and there are others who no longer frequent the forum for the same reasons.

When a forum loses so a lot of experienced members in a cluster like that, new blood needs to come through to replace them, but, on the whole, it hasn't done so.  This is for, in my view, three fundamental reasons:

1. The rise of Facebook, Twitter and Blogs: I loathe these forms of communication.  I think that they are lazy, sloppy, filled with spam, flaming, and trolling, and are echo chambers, in which everybody nods their head like the Churchill dog to agree with the owner.  Unfortunately, a lot of the younger generation seems to like these platforms, owing to the instant responses, regardless of how good these responses might be.  'Generation instant' is how they are sometimes referred to by the media.  How true that is, I'm not sure, I'll try to ask some of my students next semester to see what their views are.  Suffice to say, however, that the younger generation, and let's not forget, GW wants to cater for them far more than the veterans, because they're the ones who spend the most money at GW stores, has moved away from forums and into other forms of social media.

2. The loss of up-to-date content: The fact that nobody has re-written the army guides for sixth edition, that the front page lacks new articles, and there are not many in-depth discussions going on, caused mainly by the loss of so many experienced players who produced this material (see above) means that we're not recruiting enough new members.  People want to see content, but at the moment there isn't much to see, because there are not enough people around to produce it.

The sad thing for me Chuckles is that you were capable of producing such content.  I invited you on two separate occasions to help out, saying that I had a list of things you could help with, and you never took me up on the offer.  You could have helped, and you chose not to.  I make no judgement either way, as it was entirely up to you,  I just make the observation.

3. The server: Every time we have a server crash, we seem to lose more members.  We've had far too many server problems in the last two years, and it is the last two years that we've lost even more members.  I don't think that this is a coincidence.  People get very frustrated by server problems, and if they are not long standing members of the forum who are used to it, then they just leave.  It's annoying enough for those of us who are regulars, so new members must really hate it.  Kindred and Raine are both working very hard to solve the problem, but it's not the work of the moment.  Transferring a site as large as this one from one server to another is difficult, so please bear with them.

Finally, on the charge that the Staff is lying, or is in self-denial is untrue.  I think that I can speak for all the active Staff when I say that we all know that there is a problem, and we keep trying to do things to fix it.  In view of the problems I have outlined above, however, it is rather difficult.  All that I ask, and other Staff can add their own comments if they wish, is that you (that's all of you reading this) stay positive, keep contributing, and don't give up.  By falling into a mindset of 'nobody contributes anything, so why should I?' all that happens is that even fewer people contribute, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.  The way to keep the place at least ticking over is just to keep posting what you can, and I hope that you'll continue to do so.
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Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 09:29:05 AM »
Irisado is right as ever.  There used to be articles from the likes of Dr. Faust, which I eagerly read as I was learning to paint.  The server issues are a real pain, compounded by shorter attention spans as people succumb to Twitter ADHD.

But players are also being squeezed from two sides by civil life and Games Workshop's practices.  The economy remains in the dumps, with wages continuing the thirty year decline/stagnation yet this hobby keeps getting more expensive.  I have less disposable income as I focus on career and starting a family, and less free time alltogether.  The time and money spent on my beloved space mans is difficult to justify (I have a stack of boxes as tall as I am but lack the space to put them somewhere).

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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 09:57:10 AM »
First up, blaming lost interest on social media is retarded. "Kids can't keep their attention on nuthin' nummore. Must be that darn'ed Interwebs with all that pernargaphy that's keepin' 'em from getting the good grades in school."

Problem isn't Facebook, or Twitter, or short attention spans. I've got ADD, and I can focus on something long enough to put a post together. When I write, it's usually 12 pages long, at least. I'm a member of Facebook, and I can hold my amphetamine parrot together long enough to read a post.

I have slowed in my posting of new content, mostly because within a day or two it gets shunted to the Project boards... where nobody sees it. Guests can't see it, no new interest, no new members... death of a board. A nice, clean, sterile board, where everything is in its proper place, gathering dust.

I don't care if my work makes it to the front page. I'm computorily retarded, so I don't understand how to make that happen, even if I thought the effort would go somewhere. I just want it left where anyone can see it.

Quit shuffling anything interesting off to the project boards. Quit forcing a single view of "interesting content" down everyone's throats. Quit responding to criticism with the same, "We're doing it our way because we want to... though your input is valued... we don't give a amphetamine parrot what you think." Put it up front, "This is our sand box, and we run it this way because that's how we like it. We don't care that only 20 other people like it that way, because that's the way we like it, and we're happy to let the rabble go play on Dakka." You'll retain people that can live with that mentality, rather than having people bail after achieving a double digit post count.


Server crash is frustrating, but not the end of the world. There's nothing as members that we can do about it, so the worry is fruitless.

And I LOOOOVE how "The Staff" are spoken for by, what, two people? It lends so much credibility to the statement! "The Staff" should speak for themselves. Hell, at one point I was [laughably] on the Staff list. I'm sure it was a mistake, but "The Staff" can speak for themselves. Or opt out of being "staff", I guess.


Sorry to see you go, Chuckles. Try it again in 3 months... maybe things will be different.

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 10:22:49 AM »
And I LOOOOVE how "The Staff" are spoken for by, what, two people? It lends so much credibility to the statement! "The Staff" should speak for themselves. Hell, at one point I was [laughably] on the Staff list. I'm sure it was a mistake, but "The Staff" can speak for themselves. Or opt out of being "staff", I guess.

It seems that you're speaking on behalf of others who haven't been spoken for about how they shouldn't be spoken on behalf of.  Try waiting for replies?
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Offline Kindred

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2013, 10:34:39 AM »
I will also note that - perhaps - what Irisado said DOES cover the opinions of the other staff and we feel no need to clutter a thread with those stupid +1 comments if Irisado has already said things?
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2013, 10:55:20 AM »
First up, blaming lost interest on social media is retarded. "Kids can't keep their attention on nuthin' nummore. Must be that darn'ed Interwebs with all that pernargaphy that's keepin' 'em from getting the good grades in school."

You're mixing two arguments.  The second is irrelevant, as that's not what I said.  The first is the case, because the people who develop forum software, and people who are struggling to start new forums or keep existing ones afloat, nearly all keep reporting the same issue, and that is that they are struggling to compete with social media.  You can dismiss it as much as you want, but I work with people who design forum software, and know a thing or two about the competition.  Forums face real challenges with trying to compete with social media.

Note too that in the previous thread regarding activity issues, the issue of Facebook was raised:

Weirdly enough Facebook does do the trick, you don't have masses of posts, however you do have plenty of activity, even is the number of different topics is very low. You post something, you get fast replies, you forget about it, it's done. A guy can post anything and people can answer what they want. Most importantly of all, you get replies fast.

Quote
I have slowed in my posting of new content, mostly because within a day or two it gets shunted to the Project boards... where nobody sees it. Guests can't see it, no new interest, no new members... death of a board. A nice, clean, sterile board, where everything is in its proper place, gathering dust.

I don't care if my work makes it to the front page. I'm computorily retarded, so I don't understand how to make that happen, even if I thought the effort would go somewhere. I just want it left where anyone can see it.

You write some good articles.  Good articles belong in the project boards for critique and final editing, and then are submitted to go onto the front page.  The front page can be viewed by everyone, including guest, so why haven't you submitted them?  I have been asking for content for the front page for months, and you have not once stepped up to submit your articles.  You were a Project Editor, you had access to the inner working of the system, and if you didn't understand you could have asked, I would have been more than happy to explain it to you.

To turn around after the event and complain when you could have raised this issue months ago is extremely disappointing.  You had plenty of opportunities to discuss this before, so why wait until now?

As it happens, I started a discussion regarding the future of the Project boards a while back, and it's currently under review.  It is likely that some changes will be made, but the fact of the matter remains that this site used to pull a lot of people in via the articles on the front page.  If you've got sixth edition Imperial Guard material to publish, then send me a PM, and ask how to get it published.

Edit: Note that I'm also trying to establish exactly how many hits the front page gets compared to the forum index, and if it transpires that it's not enough, then yes, the current system will be revised.  You were welcome to make this suggestion when you were a Project Editor incidentally, as I have alluded to above.

Quote
And I LOOOOVE how "The Staff" are spoken for by, what, two people? It lends so much credibility to the statement! "The Staff" should speak for themselves. Hell, at one point I was [laughably] on the Staff list. I'm sure it was a mistake, but "The Staff" can speak for themselves. Or opt out of being "staff", I guess.

You will not I used 'I' for my own views, of which there were many.  That leaves plenty of scope for other Staff to express a different view.

As for your being on the Staff list.  Project Editors are listed under Staff for the recognition of the work that they do.  It's an arduous job, very few people actually want to do it, and without them we'd never have any content on the front page ever.  It's a shame that you chose not to continue help with the editorial process.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 08:11:30 PM by Irisado »
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Offline RandomGuardsman

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2013, 10:16:59 PM »
 I am a little sad to see you go Mr. Chuckles. I know we butted heads on several topics and I am pretty sure I still have a few dents in my skull from said times. :P I always respected your opinion on the matter(s) and took them into account before responding. You should always check back in on the forum farther down the road to see if anything changed. Until then, I will have to catch you around fine sir! o7

 Back in 2011/2012 a lot of people started jumping ship for several reasons. Some of those covered by Irisado, some of them not.  I know going into 2012 that several of the forum members had issues that did not get addressed or had been pushed aside as not being an issue. I sent a message to Irisado about a few of those issues expressing that they are causing problems among some members. Sadly, the response given felt very generic and seemed to come off as a lack of interest in and/or denial of the issue. Now whether that was the intent or not I can not say, but it did not seem to help. After several of the other members tapered off I eventually followed. At that point I actually stopped playing the game as keeping up on the forum really kept me into the hobby.
 
 I got back into the game recently and wanted to rejoin a forum. Maybe this was a bad first post to come back to, but reading it really makes me wonder if anything has changed. Either way I will probably go to the IG section and see if I can stir up some dust.  :-\
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Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2013, 01:03:46 AM »
The same happened to me.  Personally, I realized that sitting on Internet forums for hours a day was counterproductive, as I scaled back I had less motivation for the hobby (and lived too far from hobby shops).  I will get back into it once I scale down my collection and make room for a painting space.

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... Naturally, the server burps when I tried to post this earlier today.
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Offline Underhand

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2013, 09:27:32 AM »
I have slowed in my posting of new content, mostly because within a day or two it gets shunted to the Project boards... where nobody sees it. Guests can't see it, no new interest, no new members... death of a board. A nice, clean, sterile board, where everything is in its proper place, gathering dust.

I don't care if my work makes it to the front page. I'm computorily retarded, so I don't understand how to make that happen, even if I thought the effort would go somewhere. I just want it left where anyone can see it.

I had the exact same thing happen to me. 

I wrote a pretty comprehensive tactica on Penal Legions back in May 2011.  At the time I thought it would be a good article to write since Penal Legions had been pretty much overlooked by the online community at that point.  It was a gap in tactical discussion which needed filling.  I got told to firstly post it on the tactics board, to allow for input from other users and then submit it to the project board 'for final editing'.
 
After discussion had died down I requested it be moved to the projects board as I had been instructed.  And that's the last thing that ever happened with it.  There was no editing or guidance about what to do next.  It was a lot of work wasted.

I never bothered pitching another article after that.


Offline Irisado

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2013, 09:54:51 AM »
I take it that you mean this?  The process for submitting an article was outlined in this announcement, which you'll note from looking at the dates was in the same year you wrote that article.  In short, we cannot publish that which we do not receive, and the submission process was outlined in that thread.

I'm also a bit bemused as to what complaints about project submissions have to do with Chuckles' departure, so I prevent any further drift in this thread, please send me a PM, or start a new thread in Suggestions, Questions, and Comments, if you want to continue to discuss project related issues.  I'll be more than happy to answer further questions there.
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Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2013, 10:22:40 AM »
Just gonna chuck my two cents in here.... for what ever it is worth.

The server going down all the time was the biggest deterrent for me. I don;t know why this is, or what needs to be done to fix it, but it has made me drastically scale back what I do here.

Many other little issues, some not even to do with this forum (such as the cost of gw products), but the server is issue #1 for me
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Offline Faeluchu

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2013, 01:28:51 PM »
I'd just like to point out that while there is a visible decline in the forum activity it's not like *nothing* is happening; whenever I have trouble with an army list*, need some painting or converting advice or want to talk about background - someone will usually post a meaningful answer within a day or two. There are certainly boards that have little to none activity - I'm looking at you, Discussion and Video Games - but those are usually those not vital to the survival of the hobby as such (and because of that not really that vital to this forum). And to me personally even the server is not so annoying - so what, I can't access the forum for 2-3 days, there are still other things to do in them Interwebs



*that's at least true for the Eldar board, not sure how other armies fare
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Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2013, 02:02:39 PM »
The staff used to be hawkish about rooting out spam or off-the-cuff posts because traffic was very high and we wanted to differentiate discussion from the anything goes forums.  I encouraged this to foster constructive responses.  When things slowed down I said that we should easy up on threadromancy and "that's a cool model!" posts, because these were no longer disruptive.  But, things kept slowing down.

Constructive posts are still forthcoming, but there needs to be more vibrancy, far more activity.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2013, 02:09:09 PM »
Traffic has slowed, yes, but calling this forum 'dead' is an exaggeration. There is modest traffic in most of the boards I visit (Space Marines, Tau, Battle Reports), though Chaos is a bit dead these days. The Eldar boards are fairly healthy, as is IG. The less popular armies--Necrons, Orks, Tyranids, Inquisition--seem pretty slow, but they've always been slower than the other boards.

Of course, talking about how a forum isn't dead is, itself, a reason why people think a forum is dead. Just keep posting, folks. That's what I do; that's what a lot of us do. If we produce high-quality posts, we'll get more traffic (theoretically), and this will rectify itself.

Not sure what else is to be done. I like it here, so I'm not going anywhere. My battle reports will land in the Bat Reps board as often as they ever did, and I'll keep posting elsewhere as it suits me.

Offline Halollet

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Re: Sooooo...
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2013, 04:55:07 PM »
I wouldn't call this forum dead at all.  I get responses to my army lists, they're constructive.  There's discussion on new codexs when they come out. 

40kO is still a good place.  The only place I stop for all my 40k needs!

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